duderonomy Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 I see it differently. I think God has provided plenty of resources for us. We are the problem, not God. "The principal underlying cause of poverty and thus hunger in Africa and elsewhere is the ordinary operation of the world's economic and political systems. Essentially control over resources and income is based on military, political and economic power that typically ends up in the hands of a minority, who live well, while those at the bottom barely survive." http://www.worldhunger.org/ Ironhorse, the Bible seems to disagree with your view that Biblegod isn't the problem. The economic and political systems you blame are his handiwork. "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1 NIV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 I would really love to read a reply to this^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 3, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2016 "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1 NIV Indeed. It is a pet peeve of mine that this verse, among so many others, is ignored as a matter of course by scripture spouting believers. They, in large part, do not wish to comply with the laws of their own country if it goes against their personal prejudice. They vilify elected officials who are in favor of applying the Constitutional yardstick in matters regarding church and state. They protest legitimate prohibitions against discrimination. And why don't they start acting like God put into place the Islamic governments and atheistic governments. All authorities that exist have been established by your god, right? No? Then explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Florduh, Ironhorse cannot explain. But he has faith and that is enough for him. (His own words.) Whereas, Steve Muso's faith was enough to help, heal and serve many others. http://www.ex-christian.net/user/6515-stevomuso/#.Vyj9voQrJD8 By faith he sold all his worldly possessions, gave the money to the poor and went to serve those who were starving. Steve's faith served many. . . . Ironhorse's faith serves... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted May 3, 2016 Author Share Posted May 3, 2016 I see it differently. I think God has provided plenty of resources for us. We are the problem, not God. "The principal underlying cause of poverty and thus hunger in Africa and elsewhere is the ordinary operation of the world's economic and political systems. Essentially control over resources and income is based on military, political and economic power that typically ends up in the hands of a minority, who live well, while those at the bottom barely survive." http://www.worldhunger.org/ Ironhorse, the Bible seems to disagree with your view that Biblegod isn't the problem. The economic and political systems you blame are his handiwork. "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1 NIV Romans 13:1-3 reads: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same." "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil." This phrase is reveals the context in which the scripture is speaking. Civil government must not be a "terror to good works." God grants these powers to keep order in society. People following civil laws and doing good should have no fear. It is only a terror to those doing evil works. We are to obey governments unless they violate Scripture. Acts 5:29 says, "We must obey God rather than men." There are dozens of scripture verses on evil leaders and corrupt governments. Note about the photo: Kevin Carter, who took the picture wrote this later about his experiences in Sudan “I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings & corpses & anger & pain . . . of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners . . . " https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 I see it differently. I think God has provided plenty of resources for us. We are the problem, not God. "The principal underlying cause of poverty and thus hunger in Africa and elsewhere is the ordinary operation of the world's economic and political systems. Essentially control over resources and income is based on military, political and economic power that typically ends up in the hands of a minority, who live well, while those at the bottom barely survive." http://www.worldhunger.org/ Ironhorse, the Bible seems to disagree with your view that Biblegod isn't the problem. The economic and political systems you blame are his handiwork. "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1 NIV Romans 13:1-3 reads: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same." "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil." This phrase is reveals the context in which the scripture is speaking. Civil government must not be a "terror to good works." God grants these powers to keep order in society. People following civil laws and doing good should have no fear. It is only a terror to those doing evil works. We are to obey governments unless they violate Scripture. Acts 5:29 says, "We must obey God rather than men." There are dozens of scripture verses on evil leaders and corrupt governments. Note about the photo: Kevin Carter, who took the picture wrote this later about his experiences in Sudan “I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings & corpses & anger & pain . . . of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners . . . " https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/ This is interesting, Ironhorse. In the above response to the Dude you appear to be defending your Christian faith - not merely representing it. So please give us a definitive answer. Are you here to defend your Christian faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 4, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted May 4, 2016 "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto god what is god's." ~jesus When the fuck is jesus going to render unto the starving children what is theirs? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangitbobby83 Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Note about the photo: Kevin Carter, who took the picture wrote this later about his experiences in Sudan “I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings & corpses & anger & pain . . . of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners . . . " https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/ Which your god has the power to stop but chooses not to. It is one of the most savage, disgusting parts of religious faith that not only allows, but excuses a being who has the power to stop the worst atrocities but chooses not to. The shear amount of head-in-sand required to look at that picture and not feel anger and disgust at the being who is supposed to care about us, but time and again shows that he is either incapable or uncaring, is mind boggling. Your free will argument is nonsense. God has shown through either miracles or scripture (see Exodus 9:12), he is perfectly "willing" to violate free will. Your blaming of humanity is nonsense. If god is infinite, he has every choice to do it all differently. He cannot be all loving and all powerful - he could easily reduce or eliminate tragedies such as this, infinite in knowledge/power, infinite in choices. But he doesn't. The final excuse I've heard is "light vs. dark" - we couldn't know good without evil is bullshit. This means that your god requires evil in order to understand him. If he requires something opposite of him in order for us to "get him", he cannot be an infinite deity, which means we can simply ignore him. The only solution to these problems? No god. No god, no problem of evil. Suffering makes sense in a cold, cruel world and it's only us. Only us which can do something. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 I see it differently. I think God has provided plenty of resources for us. We are the problem, not God. "The principal underlying cause of poverty and thus hunger in Africa and elsewhere is the ordinary operation of the world's economic and political systems. Essentially control over resources and income is based on military, political and economic power that typically ends up in the hands of a minority, who live well, while those at the bottom barely survive." http://www.worldhunger.org/ Ironhorse, the Bible seems to disagree with your view that Biblegod isn't the problem. The economic and political systems you blame are his handiwork. "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1 NIV Romans 13:1-3 reads: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same." "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil." This phrase is reveals the context in which the scripture is speaking. Civil government must not be a "terror to good works." God grants these powers to keep order in society. People following civil laws and doing good should have no fear. It is only a terror to those doing evil works. We are to obey governments unless they violate Scripture. Acts 5:29 says, "We must obey God rather than men." There are dozens of scripture verses on evil leaders and corrupt governments. Note about the photo: Kevin Carter, who took the picture wrote this later about his experiences in Sudan “I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings & corpses & anger & pain . . . of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners . . . " https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/ Ironhorse, you are in error here. The Acts 5:29 quote you used is Peter speaking to the leaders of the Sadducees regarding preaching Jesus as messiah. It has nothing to do with obeying civil government, but instead religious leadership. In fact, the governments (and their economic systems) that let millions of children starve, for whatever reason, are put there by your Biblegod, according to your Bible, and to resist them is to resist Biblegod himself. "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation." Imagine your god knitting that child (in the picture) together in its mother's womb, and having a plan for its life. Starving with a buzzard looking on is your Biblegod's plan, and the governments that let that happen, not just in that one case but in thousands and thousand of cases every day are put there by your god. In all things give thanks, right? The next time you are on your knees in prayer, are you going to thank your god for those starving children? Thank god for their distended bellies and the glazed lost look in their eyes? I hope for your sake that you do, because I'd hate to have you resisting your god. You might bring up that it is "our fault" and not Biblegod's fault and that he will wonder where we were when we saw them hungry, naked, in prison. Well, where is he? Your all powerful god of love is waiting on people whose hearts are deceitfully wicked while his own creation dies a horrible painful slow death? I might point out that when he didn't help the least of these my brethren, he didn't help me. What say you? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangitbobby83 Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Imagine your god knitting that child (in the picture) together in its mother's womb, and having a plan for its life. Starving with a buzzard looking on is your Biblegod's plan, and the governments that let that happen, not just in that one case but in thousands and thousand of cases every day are put there by your god. Dude makes a solid point here...so many christians are against abortion because... Jeremiah 1-5, "I knew you before you were born" and Jeremiah 29:11-13, "For I know the plans I have for you"... Oh so wonderful christians...try and think the total implications of this. Yeah, it's great lovey-dovey sounding for us fortunate enough to be born in the west where even the poorest of us usually don't starve to death on the streets. But this means those kids in Africa? Yup. God's plan - let them die a horrible, tortured death, begging anything and anyone for help, while god whistles on (and then helps someone else in the world get a big promotion, find a better parking spot, or "cure" someone from something not really life threatening). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Why don't you trust yourself then, iron horse? Why don't you throw out everything you have read, everything you have been told, if you trust in God so much, why don't you clear your mind and walk that tightrope alone, as if your father's books were never written, as if you had never heard of bob dylan.starting from square one, with childlike innocence. Looking at your experiences alone, not what people have told you. How would you look at everything that has happened in your life, if no one had ever told you that a god exists. That's all. If you won't complete a truly skeptical appraisal, just do it for pretend. Pretend that you never heard of god, look at everything in your life through a meticulous lens, and then write a piece of "fiction" about a theoretical dystopia based on your own experiences in which god does not exist, and your thoughts on what it would be like. if only to pick it apart as a matter of faith. A dystopia? Imagining a place where people are unhappy and usually afraid and where God does not exist would be a sad world. In such world it would be impossible to find any hope. That to me is a horrific darkness. I realize that some here will never accept I ever did a truly skeptical appraisal of the Christian faith because my conclusion that it is true. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you did do this skeptical appraisal Ironhorse, why would ask for it to be dismissed by us? Posted 10 April 2016 - 10:26 PM Ironhorse wrote... Yes, please take note. Any questioning or skeptical analysis of Christianity by me should be dismissed. I can't prove Jesus came back from the dead. I just believe he did. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ That is what they think. I’m not going to go on a rant against them because of what they have accepted as truth for them. It is ironic to me that I keep been accused of using my childhood experiences, my parents, and other things in my life as I thought about the validity of the Christian faith yet ex-Christians will often use these same experiences as reasons to reject the Christian faith. I agree my experiences were positive and others have had a very negative experience with abusive churches and heretical ideas and teachings. I have read many testimonies on another forum here. I’m not them criticizing for that. They had no more control over who their parents were than I did. I really do sympathize on what they had to go through. I totally understand why some view Christianity as being so evil and horrific. I see why they left it. I post in the Lion’s Den to share what I do know about the Christian faith and to read what others think. I try to answer questions the best I can. I read what others post. I don’t get upset if people do not accept anything I say. I actually enjoy being a member here. Please don't put me in exile on the Rapture Ready boards. So did you do it or didn't you? If you did, where is it? If you didn't, why did you claim you did? (Bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Why don't you trust yourself then, iron horse? Why don't you throw out everything you have read, everything you have been told, if you trust in God so much, why don't you clear your mind and walk that tightrope alone, as if your father's books were never written, as if you had never heard of bob dylan.starting from square one, with childlike innocence. Looking at your experiences alone, not what people have told you. How would you look at everything that has happened in your life, if no one had ever told you that a god exists. That's all. If you won't complete a truly skeptical appraisal, just do it for pretend. Pretend that you never heard of god, look at everything in your life through a meticulous lens, and then write a piece of "fiction" about a theoretical dystopia based on your own experiences in which god does not exist, and your thoughts on what it would be like. if only to pick it apart as a matter of faith. A dystopia? Imagining a place where people are unhappy and usually afraid and where God does not exist would be a sad world. In such world it would be impossible to find any hope. That to me is a horrific darkness. Why? Your God certainly doesn't provide hope to those who truly need it the most: I see it differently. I think God has provided plenty of resources for us. We are the problem, not God. "The principal underlying cause of poverty and thus hunger in Africa and elsewhere is the ordinary operation of the world's economic and political systems. Essentially control over resources and income is based on military, political and economic power that typically ends up in the hands of a minority, who live well, while those at the bottom barely survive." http://www.worldhunger.org/ No, Ironhorse. We humans are only the problem if we evolved and were not created by God. With no God to judge us and hold us responsible to him, we are only responsible to each other for any suffering we have caused. But if we were created by God as per the scriptural description, then we are not the ultimate cause of the problem - God is. He set up Adam and Eve to fail his impossible test, held them responsible for their inevitable failure and then cursed them and their descendants (us). So the true underlying cause of the hunger killing this child was God. He is the true cause of ALL suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 IH U2 cares more about Africa than your God, mostly because it's imaginary, but if it did U2 still wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 That African kid (and others like him) is clearly a reprobate. Baptist WASPs belong to the elect and that's that. Praise the Lord and his glorious plan! Then there are all those unfortunate souls raised in non-Christian cultures, and let's not forget the isolated tribes who've never even heard of Jesus. Boy, are they in for treat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangitbobby83 Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Let's talk about Isaiah 45:9 for a moment. ""Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'The potter has no hands'?" I've heard sermons about this and most Christians (in church, surrounded by their peers. Who knows what they would claim to us) will say this is evidence that god does in fact own us. He created us, he owns us. The creation (the clay/pottery) doesn't have a right to bitch about how it was made because the pottery is not its own. Which means, IH - god is FULLY responsible for starving kids in africa. He made us. He owns us. He's responsible for the starving child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 I have yet to see a compelling refutation of Epicurus theodicy: "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangitbobby83 Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 I have yet to see a compelling refutation of Epicurus theodicy: "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?" I just don't think it's possible. No god, no problem of evil. Occam's Razor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 I see it differently. I think God has provided plenty of resources for us. We are the problem, not God. "The principal underlying cause of poverty and thus hunger in Africa and elsewhere is the ordinary operation of the world's economic and political systems. Essentially control over resources and income is based on military, political and economic power that typically ends up in the hands of a minority, who live well, while those at the bottom barely survive." http://www.worldhunger.org/ Ironhorse, the Bible seems to disagree with your view that Biblegod isn't the problem. The economic and political systems you blame are his handiwork. "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1 NIV Romans 13:1-3 reads: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same." "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil." This phrase is reveals the context in which the scripture is speaking. Civil government must not be a "terror to good works." God grants these powers to keep order in society. People following civil laws and doing good should have no fear. It is only a terror to those doing evil works. We are to obey governments unless they violate Scripture. Acts 5:29 says, "We must obey God rather than men." There are dozens of scripture verses on evil leaders and corrupt governments. Note about the photo: Kevin Carter, who took the picture wrote this later about his experiences in Sudan “I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings & corpses & anger & pain . . . of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners . . . " https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/ This is interesting, Ironhorse. In the above response to the Dude you appear to be defending your Christian faith - not merely representing it. So please give us a definitive answer. Are you here to defend your Christian faith? (Bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 5, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted May 5, 2016 So, Ironhorse, here's an interesting question for you to ignore: Should the child in the photo have trusted himself, or the lord? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 So, Ironhorse, here's an interesting question for you to ignore: Should the child in the photo have trusted himself, or the lord? A favorite picture used here repeatedly. Long story short, WE are responsible at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 5, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted May 5, 2016 A favorite picture used here repeatedly. Long story short, WE are responsible at this time. I agree. We are responsible at this time and all times. The God character of the Bible turned his back on his very first creations and increased their sorrows; hasn't given a shit since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 So, Ironhorse, here's an interesting question for you to ignore: Should the child in the photo have trusted himself, or the lord? A favorite picture used here repeatedly. Long story short, WE are responsible at this time. Yes, many humans are responsible for many bad things that happen, including the starvation of that child. Imaginary sky fairies have no responsibility. They are powerless. They only exist in the brains of believers. Yes, yes, yes. IF the Abrahamic God existed as claimed in the Bible, it would have responsibility (sometimes joint responsibility with other actors), and those that claim otherwise (only theists do this), are brainwashed chuckleheads. Yes, yes, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 A favorite picture used here repeatedly. Long story short, WE are responsible at this time. I agree. We are responsible at this time and all times. The God character of the Bible turned his back on his very first creations and increased their sorrows; hasn't given a shit since. Yeah, that kid totally got what he deserved. That's what happens when your mythical ancestor eats the wrong fruit. Sucks to be us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 So, Ironhorse, here's an interesting question for you to ignore: Should the child in the photo have trusted himself, or the lord?A favorite picture used here repeatedly. Long story short, WE are responsible at this time.well yes because there are no gods. But back up your argument with scripture cause I'm pretty sure we can show that your God is responsible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 So, Ironhorse, here's an interesting question for you to ignore: Should the child in the photo have trusted himself, or the lord? A favorite picture used here repeatedly. Long story short, WE are responsible at this time. Only if we evolved and there is no God, End. If were were created a la Eden, then God is responsible for rigging the test against us. No test with secret terms and conditions and secret penalties is fair, just or good. Such a test is... evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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