Prayer And Catastrophe

[RachelSkates]

Has anyone prayed and immediately had a catastrophe? Here is what happened. 

I was upset one day and headed home.

Someone stopped me and asked me if i wanted to pray. I said OK because I thought it might help. I wanted to believe. 

Well, that pause caused the domino effect.

On my way home, a lady was texting and slammed into me @ 55 mph. I was injured. 

I wonder how many other people prayed about something and found themselves in a catastrophe? 

[hockeyfan70]

I had this discussion with my wife a few days ago.

 

There have been times when I swear that God has talked to me through prayer. Two specific incidents: one time, he told me what to say to some lady I hadn't even met yet. I met her the next day, bashfully told her what God had supposedly told me to say, and she said it was what she needed to hear.

 

Another time, I swear I heard God tell me that on a certain day I was going to die. So I wrote a letter to my family and even videotaped a goodbye. I didn't die that day.

 

So I don't really know. 

 

I'm sorry about your injuries. I was in a car accident September 2014 and I'm still fighting with insurance companies over a settlement.

 

Now that I have accepted that what has happened to me in my life, both bad and good, are either chance occurrences or based on what I've done or not done, I just accept things for what they are. It's kind of freeing, actually.

[RachelSkates]

Hockey-

 

Thank you! Before the wreck I had many episodes of "synchronicity." They all meant nothing. I did have premonitions about the wreck. I was involved in a different religion to expand mind. Well, it worked, I guess. I am not going back.

I have concluded that some of us just have extra neurons that know stuff. I don't know. It had nothing to do with God, I am sure. 

 

PS: I LOVE your Jesus kissing you icon. He has kissed me a lot, I can tell you. This was not my first religion-related trauma and because I am weak and probably rather daft, I am sure it will not be my last. 

 

Who is your favourite hockey team? I am a 4th gen Leafs fan. They are also used to Jesus kissing them. A lot. 

[hockeyfan70]

Not that you really need to know, but I've had three favorite hockey teams.

 

I grew up in Colorado, and in the late '70's we actually had an NHL team called the Colorado Rockies. And then they moved to New Jersey and became the Devils.

 

So then I started following the Philadelphia Flyers because in the early eighties I liked Ron Hextall and Bobby Clarke and the rest of the Broad Street Bullies.

 

But then when the Avalanche came to town, I became a fan and never looked back.

 

So there you go - way more info than you needed to know.

 

I do like the Leafs and I root for them and other original six teams besides Detroit when the Avs aren't in the playoffs.

 

As far as the non-hockey stuff, I have a hard time with coincidences now. For example, I started fighting human trafficking about eight years ago. The reason I started is because I swear everywhere I turned, whether it was in the news or conversations with people or whatever, it was right in my face all the time. So I don't know what to do with that now. I kind of feel the same right now with LGBTQ teens where I live. I feel like I'm supposed to do something to help, but what's telling me to do so? Something inside of me? The universe?

 

By the way, I was in the ministry for over twenty years. It's been quite an interesting journey, getting out of church and religion altogether. It's only been a couple of months, so I experience some pretty big cognitive dissonance where I wonder if I'm doing the right thing. I'm sure I am, it's just hard to de-convert after so many years.

[hockeyfan70]

Hmm, I just looked up the original six to make sure I was right (I figured so, but just in case), and I knew that the last time Toronto won a Stanley Cup was 1967 (sorry to bring that up), which was the year before the NHL expanded. That's an interesting coincidence. To me at least.

[RachelSkates]

Oh, coincidences and synchronicity. I , too, have trouble with that. It is ok if it is trivial stuff, but I have gotten into relationships based on it! Like WEIRD things. "God, if they have no TV or do XYZ as a living or blah and blah. AND they had every one! Or I ask God a questions and then something like a shooting star happens RIGHT WHEN I AM ASKING. Not once or twice, but over and over, It seems to be in spates. 

 

OK, a lot of people can say "Hmmmmm. Coincidence" to one or two, but what happens when they are really bizarre and happen all the time? I was in a spate once where it was out of control. I would read some bizarre passage in Thomas Aquinas that NO ONE has read in 1,000 years and BAM there it was in my face somewhere else. Then the checkout guy just happens to say it me. Then my dad uses the phrase. ARE YOU KIDDING?! Over and over. And they mean nothing, or nothing that I can discern, so what is the point? 

 

I have concluded it is just my brain tapping in. That passage from Aquinas did not MEAN anything. If I follow them or do NOT follow them, no difference. I used to try to understand and got into horrible jams.Now I do not chase after them and things calm down. 

 

If Jesus Christ or God literally STANDS IN FRONT OF ME and says something and tells me verbally and visually what he wants me to do and it is nothing traumatic like climb onto a cross, well, I may then think, "OK.........where and when..."

 

But till then, it is my own [expletive deleted] brain. What is the point of exhausting myself trying to figure out something that has no meaning? 

 

PS:  My brother was a pastor, too, and now not even agnostic. He is 100% atheist. I admire that he did not go ahead and stay in the pulpit when he no longer believed. My deconversion was not wholly voluntary. It was based in a lot of this kind of terror and  FRANKLY, an excruciating Christian path. I still feel guilty, to be frank. I still really wish it were true.

[sdelsolray]

Humans have highly evolved pattern recognition skills, and they can often be overstimulated.  Learning to distinguish the differences among non sequitur, coincidence, correlation and causation helps with taming that.  

[bunzooh]

But why not help LGBTQ kids? It's a thought you've had, does it have to be guidance from outside you? We do have interests and passions...why not follow them? I'm not an atheist so I think the Creator, the Spiritual, may be behind your inclinations. But it doesn't have to be anyone outside of you suggesting it...If you feel like you want to help them...DO IT.

 

or, that urge to volunteer with teens aside...why not pay attention to these little synchronicities? Jung has some to say about that...I think it is a very real way of "something/someone" (maybe yourself) letting you know a direction to approach.

[hockeyfan70]

But why not help LGBTQ kids? It's a thought you've had, does it have to be guidance from outside you? We do have interests and passions...why not follow them? I'm not an atheist so I think the Creator, the Spiritual, may be behind your inclinations. But it doesn't have to be anyone outside of you suggesting it...If you feel like you want to help them...DO IT.

 

or, that urge to volunteer with teens aside...why not pay attention to these little synchronicities? Jung has some to say about that...I think it is a very real way of "something/someone" (maybe yourself) letting you know a direction to approach.

I'm definitely going to do something. Just need to have a little more stability in my life. Like a job. That would help.

 

And I still pay attention to them, I just don't think they are coming from an eternal being. It might be pattern recognition by my brain. 

 

Or it could be that we are part of The Matrix.

[bunzooh]

that's it...the Matrix. at least you're not trying to discern god's will from the random synchronicities,...though didn't it feel safe, "knowing God was arranging all the details"? I miss that *sigh*

[hockeyfan70]

I was never one to think that faith was wrapped up in a nice little neat package, which is why I probably got in trouble a lot as a minister, but yes it definitely felt safe.

[josh1975]

Rachel,

 

I used to pray a lot, individually or as a group (such as Wednesday church prayer). In fact, in my discipleship days, I was told the 4 pillars of good Christian is - Fellowship, prayer, witnessing and reading his word. So I took it to heart until a few years ago to pray all the time.  Habit is hard to change, even now, as I no longer follow Christ, I talked to God almost on a daily basis - at least I think I have a conversation with some holy entity - mostly telling this entity what a sadistic, egotistical, glory hungry, unfair and uncaring absentee father he is. Talking to God is one way to feel better of the past so many years of deep disappointment and a sense of betray.

 

I really do not believe in prayer anymore. The way it work, the less God care about you the better. Just like the long suffering Job in the OT. The more God care about you, the more he is going to mess up your life.  The book of Job is one of those many pieces of puzzle that came together to convince me how I feel about God. Many of my past Christian friends used the experience of Job to encourage each other to roll with the punch, take God's punishment as a blessing. Now I think it is such a total nonsense. Just read the book and anyone will be convinced how callous this God is. He really really really inflicted so much pain on Job for what  ? Just to impress Satan that Job was a faithful man. 

 

I am just so angry, felt so betrayed by all these Christian training in the past. All those zealous evangelist, especially those who want to build disciples to fulfill God's big commission, should not so rudely intrude into people's life and think they are doing them a big favor of saving them.

[GuyGone]

I'm a little late to this party, but noticing coincidental things is common outside of faith also.  If you buy a particular car, or are considering it, you will see them all over the road.  Because you are attuned to it.  I was even told by a pastor once that one of his kids wanted a car like mine.  They had decided it was God's will because they started seeing them everywhere.  They might have been kidding about the God's will part, but the part about seeing them everywhere was probably true.  There weren't any more of them, they were just noticing them more.

 

Look up the invisible gorilla experiment (or read the book by the same title) for a good example of how our perception works - it isn't always what we think it is, and we are good at pattern matching.  I've noticed that I can look at the (textured) ceiling of our bedroom almost any night and see faces.  I've seen a fox, a space alien, a clown, and numerous others.  Because we tend to find patterns in the combination of texture and shadow.  I don't even have to hunt for one, I just glance up and see one.

 

As for the book of Job - that is actually an example of this in action.  Job was a problem for me in my process of leaving because of the first two chapters.  If you hear sermons or read books about Job, it's about faith in trials.  If the first two chapters are even mentioned, it's about Satan challenging God over Job.  What most writers and preachers seem not to notice (probably because they just don't see it, like the gorilla) is that it was God who pointed out Job to Satan, not the other way around.  As I said in my book, the guy who orders the hit is just a guilty as the guy who pulls the trigger.

[josh1975]

Hi Guygone,

 

I found it so odd that all those stories in OT/NT that so inspired me so much when I was a Christian now infuriated me so much. Books such as Pastor Rick Warren's purpose driven life used to be my inspiration. Warren summed up the book by saying " it is not about us, but all about God, just get over it, suffering is good for us to bring God more glory". In other word, we are created strictly for the pleasure of God, poor creatures we are that we have no say in God's glorious movie titled " mankind's agonizing journey". God scripted the movie, select the actor/actress and like it or not, you are who you are. I always suppress my tons of questions of why God created Adam and eve yet allow Satan to enter the paradise.  If this did not happen, I am sure Adam and Eve will be happily doing what God assigned them to do. My own experience parallel our ancestor, that we are put into  situations that God knows damn well that we will fail. Then when we fail, he will slam us big time. 

 

OT is full of narrative of what God's personality. Fair, just, loving and caring ?  How about that episode of this Israel (Uzzah)  who tried to correct the wobbling ox cart that carried the ark of the covenant. God was so mad with him for touching the ark, he struck him dead.  Make no sense to me.  And Moses who used to be my hero who should be tried for genocide.  On and on, the OT just full of episodes that have no regard whatsoever for human life. Now fast forward to all the World Wars, big and small conflicts.  I agreed that Jesus died a horrible death. But so are millions of human (babies, parents...) went through much worse. 

 

There are more questions than I can share..... what so exhilarating for me when I stopped following Christ in 2012 is the joy of speaking up what I really think.  Heaven is the carrot, and hell is the stick.  When it loose its power on you, you can be truly free.  I am no intellectual, just a dumb ordinary little guy. I can not debate on any spiritual issues. But a simple question I asked myself - where you happy as a Christian, do you feel joy and peace, do  you feel free as Jesus said " the truth will set you free".  My answer is no !   I felt enslaved by the Christianity, by the endless tasks from the church, endless quest to be holy, endless quest to please God, endless quest to praise him even when we are suffering, all the souls we are asked to evangelized (or blood is on my hand).

 

Sorry for all the rambling, I do feel good by expressing my feeling. Very therapeutic.