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Goodbye Jesus

Answered Prayers, Etc.


directionless

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One thing that restrains me from slamming the door on God is the times that my prayers seem to have been answered. In particular, God has answered prayers to help somebody else. I do not want to antagonize God, because as long as there is any chance at all that God exists, I want Him to continue to help that somebody (and other somebodies too).

 

It is one thing to put myself at risk, but it is another thing to put a loved one at risk. Does anybody else feel this way? I know that loved ones die everyday in spite of prayers, so maybe it is irrational for me to think that God helps somebody while other somebodies are not helped.

 

Another factor is that I seem to have become paranoid and superstitious. I know I should not be that way, but it is hard to overcome.

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so maybe it is irrational

 

Maybe?

 

I'm sorry you have to endure all this confusion and pain, but you won't find any solutions here. Please dive into some intense therapy and don't be afraid of any drugs that might be needed to set your mind right. I hope you find the help you need.

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Prayers answered doesn't mean there's a god. It could be just coincidence.

 

If the scriptures that say things like "ask, seek, knock" are true, then prayer should work every time. But they don't. 

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What does "answered" even mean? That you got some warm fuzzy feeling, that something happened?

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What does "answered" even mean? That you got some warm fuzzy feeling, that something happened?

 

Unfortunately, I don't want to describe the answered prayers in detail, because I worry that God wants to keep these things confidential (if He exists). The apparent answers to prayers are not that different from the claims that we have all heard, and of course there are other explanations.

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Prayers answered doesn't mean there's a god. It could be just coincidence.

 

If the scriptures that say things like "ask, seek, knock" are true, then prayer should work every time. But they don't. 

 

That is true, but I was not a fundamentalist Christian, so I am talking about a more generic God that masquerades as the indigenous Gods of various societies. I'm not sure where Jesus fits in. Of course, sometimes I feel so depressed that I don't believe in anything.

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so maybe it is irrational

 

Maybe?

 

I'm sorry you have to endure all this confusion and pain, but you won't find any solutions here. Please dive into some intense therapy and don't be afraid of any drugs that might be needed to set your mind right. I hope you find the help you need.

 

 

Thanks, @florduh , I didn't mean to be a nuisance, but I can see that my threads could be a distraction and a source of confusion for people who are exiting Christianity - and those are the people this forum is designed to help. So I will try to stop posting so much about my own issues. I have been seeing a therapist for about a year.

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pm'ed you, directionless.

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One thing that restrains me from slamming the door on God is the times that my prayers seem to have been answered. In particular, God has answered prayers to help somebody else. I do not want to antagonize God, because as long as there is any chance at all that God exists, I want Him to continue to help that somebody (and other somebodies too).

 

It is one thing to put myself at risk, but it is another thing to put a loved one at risk. Does anybody else feel this way? I know that loved ones die everyday in spite of prayers, so maybe it is irrational for me to think that God helps somebody while other somebodies are not helped.

 

Another factor is that I seem to have become paranoid and superstitious. I know I should not be that way, but it is hard to overcome.

 

Seems like an odd notion that your not believing in God would put someone else at risk. But go ahead and acknowledge that you believe in God if it makes you feel better. Then all 3 parties are happy...even if one party is imaginary. :)

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Prayers answered doesn't mean there's a god. It could be just coincidence.

 

If the scriptures that say things like "ask, seek, knock" are true, then prayer should work every time. But they don't. 

 

That is true, but I was not a fundamentalist Christian, so I am talking about a more generic God that masquerades as the indigenous Gods of various societies. I'm not sure where Jesus fits in. Of course, sometimes I feel so depressed that I don't believe in anything.

 

Well, I guess you don't have to necessarily believe in the god of the bible. I don't believe in any gods, but I don't rule out the possibility of the supernatural, and perhaps no one has been able to explain a cosmic force out there correctly. After all, if there's a god, it better be different than us. :)

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The apparent answers to prayers are not that different from the claims that we have all heard, and of course there are other explanations.

 

That's basically what I was going to point out. All of the "answered prayers" I've known of personally have been things that easily have natural explanations (such as coincidences or medical intervention). If there was a supernatural being performing miracles, that being should be able to do things that could not have any possible natural explanation.

 

As a side note, whenever I have heard stories of "miracles" that would not appear to have possible natural explanations, they've always been stories that are completely unverifiable. Either there are no names or places identified, or it's in some remote village somewhere on the other side of the world. Framing stories in ways that cannot be investigated is exactly the sort of thing I'd expect of people who make stuff up, so those hold no real credibility.

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One thing that restrains me from slamming the door on God is the times that my prayers seem to have been answered. In particular, God has answered prayers to help somebody else. I do not want to antagonize God, because as long as there is any chance at all that God exists, I want Him to continue to help that somebody (and other somebodies too).

 

It is one thing to put myself at risk, but it is another thing to put a loved one at risk. Does anybody else feel this way? I know that loved ones die everyday in spite of prayers, so maybe it is irrational for me to think that God helps somebody while other somebodies are not helped.

 

Another factor is that I seem to have become paranoid and superstitious. I know I should not be that way, but it is hard to overcome.

 

Any chance, Directionless?

 

As long as there is any chance at all that God exists?

The Christian End3 and I have been talking about similar stuff in the Den, over the past few months.  We've agreed that absolute and perfect knowledge (100% certainty) is an impossibility for humans.  So can you see where this agreement might leave you?  If you can never be absolutely certain that God doesn't exist, then there will always be a chance that he does.  So long as you leave open even the smallest possible chance for God, you guarantee that you'll always get exactly the answer you want.  

 

But is stacking the question to give you the answer you want really the right and honest and true thing to do?

 

It's your call.

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Prayers answered doesn't mean there's a god. It could be just coincidence.

 

If the scriptures that say things like "ask, seek, knock" are true, then prayer should work every time. But they don't. 

 

That is true, but I was not a fundamentalist Christian, so I am talking about a more generic God that masquerades as the indigenous Gods of various societies. I'm not sure where Jesus fits in. Of course, sometimes I feel so depressed that I don't believe in anything.

 

Well, I guess you don't have to necessarily believe in the god of the bible. I don't believe in any gods, but I don't rule out the possibility of the supernatural, and perhaps no one has been able to explain a cosmic force out there correctly. After all, if there's a god, it better be different than us. smile.png

 

 

Yes, and I'm not sure how to reconcile the existence of some benevolent God with the existence of so much suffering in the world. Some suffering builds character, but other times the suffering seems pointless. Reincarnation of some kind might solve the inequities in the lives of people - sort of like playing many hands of cards so that everybody gets an average amount of good and bad in their many lives. IDK

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One thing that restrains me from slamming the door on God is the times that my prayers seem to have been answered. In particular, God has answered prayers to help somebody else. I do not want to antagonize God, because as long as there is any chance at all that God exists, I want Him to continue to help that somebody (and other somebodies too).

 

It is one thing to put myself at risk, but it is another thing to put a loved one at risk. Does anybody else feel this way? I know that loved ones die everyday in spite of prayers, so maybe it is irrational for me to think that God helps somebody while other somebodies are not helped.

 

Another factor is that I seem to have become paranoid and superstitious. I know I should not be that way, but it is hard to overcome.

 

Seems like an odd notion that your not believing in God would put someone else at risk. But go ahead and acknowledge that you believe in God if it makes you feel better. Then all 3 parties are happy...even if one party is imaginary. smile.png

 

 

It's a worry that God might withdraw His answered prayers if I am sufficiently ungrateful. Silly I guess.

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The apparent answers to prayers are not that different from the claims that we have all heard, and of course there are other explanations.

 

That's basically what I was going to point out. All of the "answered prayers" I've known of personally have been things that easily have natural explanations (such as coincidences or medical intervention). If there was a supernatural being performing miracles, that being should be able to do things that could not have any possible natural explanation.

 

As a side note, whenever I have heard stories of "miracles" that would not appear to have possible natural explanations, they've always been stories that are completely unverifiable. Either there are no names or places identified, or it's in some remote village somewhere on the other side of the world. Framing stories in ways that cannot be investigated is exactly the sort of thing I'd expect of people who make stuff up, so those hold no real credibility.

 

 

Yes, and another natural explanation is hallucinations.

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One thing that restrains me from slamming the door on God is the times that my prayers seem to have been answered. In particular, God has answered prayers to help somebody else. I do not want to antagonize God, because as long as there is any chance at all that God exists, I want Him to continue to help that somebody (and other somebodies too).

 

It is one thing to put myself at risk, but it is another thing to put a loved one at risk. Does anybody else feel this way? I know that loved ones die everyday in spite of prayers, so maybe it is irrational for me to think that God helps somebody while other somebodies are not helped.

 

Another factor is that I seem to have become paranoid and superstitious. I know I should not be that way, but it is hard to overcome.

 

Any chance, Directionless?

 

As long as there is any chance at all that God exists?

The Christian End3 and I have been talking about similar stuff in the Den, over the past few months.  We've agreed that absolute and perfect knowledge (100% certainty) is an impossibility for humans.  So can you see where this agreement might leave you?  If you can never be absolutely certain that God doesn't exist, then there will always be a chance that he does.  So long as you leave open even the smallest possible chance for God, you guarantee that you'll always get exactly the answer you want.  

 

But is stacking the question to give you the answer you want really the right and honest and true thing to do?

 

It's your call.

 

 

I agree in theory. In some ways, my life can be divided into "before psychosis" and "after psychosis". I was nominally an atheist for 20 years before I had a brief period of psychosis. I don't remember having so much difficulty with my thoughts going round and round and never settling on anything. I had times when I would try to read the Bible or go to church, but I would quickly become disappointed and stop. My period of psychosis was in 2009, but I can't get back to normal. ... I lost a check yesterday, and the first thought that came to mind was that an old friend magically teleported the check to make my life difficult. That is simply not a normal reaction. Eventually I found the check. Maybe I just think too much. Like you said, everything is possible, so people need to filter the more ridiculous possibilities and consider the more probable. But I'm improving slowly :)

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so maybe it is irrational

 

Maybe?

 

I'm sorry you have to endure all this confusion and pain, but you won't find any solutions here. Please dive into some intense therapy and don't be afraid of any drugs that might be needed to set your mind right. I hope you find the help you need.

 

 

Thanks, @florduh , I didn't mean to be a nuisance, but I can see that my threads could be a distraction and a source of confusion for people who are exiting Christianity - and those are the people this forum is designed to help. So I will try to stop posting so much about my own issues. I have been seeing a therapist for about a year.

 

I'm not implying that you're a nuisance. I'm saying that you can't get the help you need in these or any other online forums. I'd double up on the sessions with the therapist.

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so maybe it is irrational

 

Maybe?

 

I'm sorry you have to endure all this confusion and pain, but you won't find any solutions here. Please dive into some intense therapy and don't be afraid of any drugs that might be needed to set your mind right. I hope you find the help you need.

 

 

Thanks, @florduh , I didn't mean to be a nuisance, but I can see that my threads could be a distraction and a source of confusion for people who are exiting Christianity - and those are the people this forum is designed to help. So I will try to stop posting so much about my own issues. I have been seeing a therapist for about a year.

 

I'm not implying that you're a nuisance. I'm saying that you can't get the help you need in these or any other online forums. I'd double up on the sessions with the therapist.

 

 

That sounds like good advice. My current therapist never wants to talk about my strange worries. She always gets fidgety and changes the subject.  She tells me I am not delusional, because I know that my worries are strange, but I don't think it is quite that simple. The consequences of my worries being true are so great, that I must factor them into my decision making - even though their probability of being true is low. So, yes, I might be able to chuckle about my strange worries, but I let them affect my behavior sometimes.

 

Forums have helped me a lot, because there are lots of smart people on forums. Also, the anonymity of forums makes it easier to discuss my thoughts. Unfortunately, I tend to annoy people on forums, because I am self-absorbed and repeat the same questions over and over. I definitely wouldn't fault anybody for considering me a nuisance. I feel that way about myself sometimes LOL smile.png I will try to keep my threads more on-topic, so that the discussions will benefit other people instead of being a blog for myself.

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The apparent answers to prayers are not that different from the claims that we have all heard, and of course there are other explanations.

 

That's basically what I was going to point out. All of the "answered prayers" I've known of personally have been things that easily have natural explanations (such as coincidences or medical intervention). If there was a supernatural being performing miracles, that being should be able to do things that could not have any possible natural explanation.

 

As a side note, whenever I have heard stories of "miracles" that would not appear to have possible natural explanations, they've always been stories that are completely unverifiable. Either there are no names or places identified, or it's in some remote village somewhere on the other side of the world. Framing stories in ways that cannot be investigated is exactly the sort of thing I'd expect of people who make stuff up, so those hold no real credibility.

 

 

Yes, and another natural explanation is hallucinations.

 

 

Indeed, and a couple others would be the placebo effect and the body naturally healing itself. Thus, there are several natural possibilities for any given "answer to prayer." Besides, the True BelieverTM has a tendency to not count all the prayers that don't get answered.

 

Here's something to think about. If I were to predict in specific detail something that was supposed to happen within the next year, and it was something that nobody would have any way of knowing ahead of time that it was going to happen, then the likelihood of my prediction coming true is very low. However, if I make 100 such predictions for a given year, then the likelihood that I'd get one right goes up significantly. If I do get one right, then I can point out that I predicted it. However, would it be fair to then claim that I have special powers in predicting the future? Of course not. It was just that with a bunch of shots in the dark, I got lucky and one hit the target.

 

In the same way, if I were to pray for a lot of things to happen and then get one "answered," would that be proof that prayer works? Of course not. Just as in the scenario above, the more shots in the dark one takes, the greater the chances are of having one hit the target.

 

When one also factors in the prior things mentioned about "answered prayer" (possible coincidences, medical intervention, hallucinations, natural healing/remission, and the placebo effect), it is diminished even more. We also can't rule out the fact that sometimes believers' prayers are for things that they already know have a strong likelihood of happening anyway, and in those cases they are essentially stacking the deck.

 

Beyond that, a lot of Christians' prayers actually contradict Christian theology. If God knows best and has a perfect will, then how can we possibly change his mind? Also, if God loves people and wants to help them, then why would he require a bunch of people praying in order to heal someone, this making his interactions with one person dependent upon the actions of others? It really doesn't make any sense at all, and there's no good way around these problems.

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One thing that restrains me from slamming the door on God is the times that my prayers seem to have been answered. In particular, God has answered prayers to help somebody else. I do not want to antagonize God, because as long as there is any chance at all that God exists, I want Him to continue to help that somebody (and other somebodies too).

 

It is one thing to put myself at risk, but it is another thing to put a loved one at risk. Does anybody else feel this way? I know that loved ones die everyday in spite of prayers, so maybe it is irrational for me to think that God helps somebody while other somebodies are not helped.

 

Another factor is that I seem to have become paranoid and superstitious. I know I should not be that way, but it is hard to overcome.

 

 

Have you considered spending time with pursuits other than religion and its associated baggage?

 

How about gardening?  American history?  Music?  Sports?  Biology?  Anything else?

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The apparent answers to prayers are not that different from the claims that we have all heard, and of course there are other explanations.

 

That's basically what I was going to point out. All of the "answered prayers" I've known of personally have been things that easily have natural explanations (such as coincidences or medical intervention). If there was a supernatural being performing miracles, that being should be able to do things that could not have any possible natural explanation.

 

As a side note, whenever I have heard stories of "miracles" that would not appear to have possible natural explanations, they've always been stories that are completely unverifiable. Either there are no names or places identified, or it's in some remote village somewhere on the other side of the world. Framing stories in ways that cannot be investigated is exactly the sort of thing I'd expect of people who make stuff up, so those hold no real credibility.

 

 

Yes, and another natural explanation is hallucinations.

 

 

Indeed, and a couple others would be the placebo effect and the body naturally healing itself. Thus, there are several natural possibilities for any given "answer to prayer." Besides, the True BelieverTM has a tendency to not count all the prayers that don't get answered.

 

Here's something to think about. If I were to predict in specific detail something that was supposed to happen within the next year, and it was something that nobody would have any way of knowing ahead of time that it was going to happen, then the likelihood of my prediction coming true is very low. However, if I make 100 such predictions for a given year, then the likelihood that I'd get one right goes up significantly. If I do get one right, then I can point out that I predicted it. However, would it be fair to then claim that I have special powers in predicting the future? Of course not. It was just that with a bunch of shots in the dark, I got lucky and one hit the target.

 

In the same way, if I were to pray for a lot of things to happen and then get one "answered," would that be proof that prayer works? Of course not. Just as in the scenario above, the more shots in the dark one takes, the greater the chances are of having one hit the target.

 

When one also factors in the prior things mentioned about "answered prayer" (possible coincidences, medical intervention, hallucinations, natural healing/remission, and the placebo effect), it is diminished even more. We also can't rule out the fact that sometimes believers' prayers are for things that they already know have a strong likelihood of happening anyway, and in those cases they are essentially stacking the deck.

 

Beyond that, a lot of Christians' prayers actually contradict Christian theology. If God knows best and has a perfect will, then how can we possibly change his mind? Also, if God loves people and wants to help them, then why would he require a bunch of people praying in order to heal someone, this making his interactions with one person dependent upon the actions of others? It really doesn't make any sense at all, and there's no good way around these problems.

 

 

That is true. On your last point, I have heard that the purpose of prayer is partially to develop a relationship with God. Jesus said in one of the gospels "God makes the rain fall on both the good and the evil, so bless those who curse you, etc." (paraphrased). However, by responding to prayer requests, God can increase the faith of believers and give them a feeling of being an integral part of His plans. Of course the Lord's prayer says "thy will be done", and Jesus said the same thing when He was dreading the expected crucifixion. If humans have free will then God's plans must constantly adapt to human choices. If humans do not have free will, then God's plan doesn't need to adapt. ... I'm not saying I believe all that stuff, but those are things I have heard.

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One thing that restrains me from slamming the door on God is the times that my prayers seem to have been answered. In particular, God has answered prayers to help somebody else. I do not want to antagonize God, because as long as there is any chance at all that God exists, I want Him to continue to help that somebody (and other somebodies too).

 

It is one thing to put myself at risk, but it is another thing to put a loved one at risk. Does anybody else feel this way? I know that loved ones die everyday in spite of prayers, so maybe it is irrational for me to think that God helps somebody while other somebodies are not helped.

 

Another factor is that I seem to have become paranoid and superstitious. I know I should not be that way, but it is hard to overcome.

 

 

Have you considered spending time with pursuits other than religion and its associated baggage?

 

How about gardening?  American history?  Music?  Sports?  Biology?  Anything else?

 

 

That is a good idea. Hobbies are difficult for me, because I am often depressed, and I am on-call answering a phone 24 hours a day and 7 days a week (my brother and I own a small business). Forums seem to be an easy form of recreation, and religion is a topic that isn't very intellectually demanding. Another factor is that I was apparently psychotic, and I keep trying to understand what happened and why. You are right that I would be wise to think less about religion.

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One thing that restrains me from slamming the door on God is the times that my prayers seem to have been answered. In particular, God has answered prayers to help somebody else. I do not want to antagonize God, because as long as there is any chance at all that God exists, I want Him to continue to help that somebody (and other somebodies too).

 

It is one thing to put myself at risk, but it is another thing to put a loved one at risk. Does anybody else feel this way? I know that loved ones die everyday in spite of prayers, so maybe it is irrational for me to think that God helps somebody while other somebodies are not helped.

 

Another factor is that I seem to have become paranoid and superstitious. I know I should not be that way, but it is hard to overcome.

 

 

Have you considered spending time with pursuits other than religion and its associated baggage?

 

How about gardening?  American history?  Music?  Sports?  Biology?  Anything else?

 

 

That is a good idea. Hobbies are difficult for me, because I am often depressed, and I am on-call answering a phone 24 hours a day and 7 days a week (my brother and I own a small business). Forums seem to be an easy form of recreation, and religion is a topic that isn't very intellectually demanding. Another factor is that I was apparently psychotic, and I keep trying to understand what happened and why. You are right that I would be wise to think less about religion.

 

 

 

Seems like you are providing excuses, not solutions.

 

Are there subjects or activities, other than your employment or religion, that interest you?

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One thing that restrains me from slamming the door on God is the times that my prayers seem to have been answered. In particular, God has answered prayers to help somebody else. I do not want to antagonize God, because as long as there is any chance at all that God exists, I want Him to continue to help that somebody (and other somebodies too).

 

It is one thing to put myself at risk, but it is another thing to put a loved one at risk. Does anybody else feel this way? I know that loved ones die everyday in spite of prayers, so maybe it is irrational for me to think that God helps somebody while other somebodies are not helped.

 

Another factor is that I seem to have become paranoid and superstitious. I know I should not be that way, but it is hard to overcome.

 

 

Have you considered spending time with pursuits other than religion and its associated baggage?

 

How about gardening?  American history?  Music?  Sports?  Biology?  Anything else?

 

 

That is a good idea. Hobbies are difficult for me, because I am often depressed, and I am on-call answering a phone 24 hours a day and 7 days a week (my brother and I own a small business). Forums seem to be an easy form of recreation, and religion is a topic that isn't very intellectually demanding. Another factor is that I was apparently psychotic, and I keep trying to understand what happened and why. You are right that I would be wise to think less about religion.

 

 

 

Seems like you are providing excuses, not solutions.

 

Are there subjects or activities, other than your employment or religion, that interest you?

 

 

Yes, I have interests.

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Yes, I have interests.

 

 

 

Do you spend appropriate time pursuing those interests?

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