Answered Prayers, Etc.

[Margee]

Forums have helped me a lot, because there are lots of smart people on forums. Also, the anonymity of forums makes it easier to discuss my thoughts. Unfortunately, I tend to annoy people on forums, because I am self-absorbed and repeat the same questions over and over. I definitely wouldn't fault anybody for considering me a nuisance. I feel that way about myself sometimes LOL I will try to keep my threads more on-topic, so that the discussions will benefit other people instead of being a blog for myself.

 

directionless, I have made 6,874 posts here and probably 4,000 of them were me trying to figure out who the hell I am since deconversion. Forming brand new world views are not easy when you've been brainwashed your whole life.

 

This site of Ex-c and it's members helped me more than anything in the world to become comfortable with who I am right now. We are self absorbed when we land here because we are so  damned confused about how the brainwashing of religion hurt us. You are not a nuisance.  You are a hurting person trying to find your way. It's wonderful if we can find a good therapist to help us through this, but for me personally......the people here helped me the most. I like talk therapy with common minded people.

 

As far as prayer goes, the problem of suffering also is my biggest dilemma for trying to find a spiritual belief or 'higher power'. We can't know for sure 100% if there is a power greater than us, so again, we are forced to work with 'faith'. It's OK for you to want to believe in something that makes sense for you. It's important for you to get comfortable in your own skin. But you are probably going to have to accept that any belief you take on will be a 'faith' in that belief because we simply cannot find proof.

 

Watch this illustration below and tell us what you think about it when you are done watching.

 

One of the members put this up for me to show me that you can pray to anything and your answer will be 'yes', 'no' or 'wait'. Have peace in yourself . You are not doing anything different than most of us when we arrived here.

 

(hug)

 

[directionless]

 

Yes, I have interests.

 

 

 

Do you spend appropriate time pursuing those interests?

 

 

No

[directionless]

 

Forums have helped me a lot, because there are lots of smart people on forums. Also, the anonymity of forums makes it easier to discuss my thoughts. Unfortunately, I tend to annoy people on forums, because I am self-absorbed and repeat the same questions over and over. I definitely wouldn't fault anybody for considering me a nuisance. I feel that way about myself sometimes LOL I will try to keep my threads more on-topic, so that the discussions will benefit other people instead of being a blog for myself.

 

directionless, I have made 6,874 posts here and probably 4,000 of them were me trying to figure out who the hell I am since deconversion. Forming brand new world views are not easy when you've been brainwashed your whole life.

 

This site of Ex-c and it's members helped me more than anything in the world to become comfortable with who I am right now. We are self absorbed when we land here because we are so  damned confused about how the brainwashing of religion hurt us. You are not a nuisance.  You are a hurting person trying to find your way. It's wonderful if we can find a good therapist to help us through this, but for me personally......the people here helped me the most. I like talk therapy with common minded people.

 

As far as prayer goes, the problem of suffering also is my biggest dilemma for trying to find a spiritual belief or 'higher power'. We can't know for sure 100% if there is a power greater than us, so again, we are forced to work with 'faith'. It's OK for you to want to believe in something that makes sense for you. It's important for you to get comfortable in your own skin. But you are probably going to have to accept that any belief you take on will be a 'faith' in that belief because we simply cannot find proof.

 

Watch this illustration below and tell us what you think about it when you are done watching.

 

One of the members put this up for me to show me that you can pray to anything and your answer will be 'yes', 'no' or 'wait'. Have peace in yourself . You are not doing anything different than most of us when we arrived here.

 

(hug)

 

Thanks, @Margee . The video was interesting. I had never heard the "yes, no, or wait" thing on prayers, but I did not attend church very much as an adult until a few years ago. Sometimes I think there is something weird in my brain. I used to think that everybody else thought somewhat like me. In particular, I am never very certain of anything, and I juggle contradictory beliefs. When I have asked people on various forums if their brains work like that, the answer is usually "no". I suspect this is part of my problem.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Beyond that, a lot of Christians' prayers actually contradict Christian theology. If God knows best and has a perfect will, then how can we possibly change his mind? Also, if God loves people and wants to help them, then why would he require a bunch of people praying in order to heal someone, this making his interactions with one person dependent upon the actions of others? It really doesn't make any sense at all, and there's no good way around these problems.

 

That is true. On your last point, I have heard that the purpose of prayer is partially to develop a relationship with God. Jesus said in one of the gospels "God makes the rain fall on both the good and the evil, so bless those who curse you, etc." (paraphrased). However, by responding to prayer requests, God can increase the faith of believers and give them a feeling of being an integral part of His plans. Of course the Lord's prayer says "thy will be done", and Jesus said the same thing when He was dreading the expected crucifixion. If humans have free will then God's plans must constantly adapt to human choices. If humans do not have free will, then God's plan doesn't need to adapt. ... I'm not saying I believe all that stuff, but those are things I have heard.

 

Yeah, I also used to view prayer as instrumental in one's relationship with God. After all, we're talking about allegedly communing with The Almighty Creator here. However, prayer as a way to develop one's relationship with God really only makes sense with prayers that specifically pertain to the one who's praying and God. It doesn't make sense with prayers for other people, for the very reasons I mentioned above.

 

For example, a lot of Christians pray for the salvation of a loved one who's not interested in religion. Such a prayer makes no sense from either a Calvinist or an Arminian perspective. Calvinists claim that salvation is predestined and we have no say in the matter, so whether or not that person would become a Christian is already set in stone, so praying for them does nothing for them. Arminians claim that God loves us all and wants everybody to be saved, but such a God would not need compelling from third parties to do something in one's life to draw them to him, so praying for them does nothing for them. Praying for someone else makes no sense. It's simply illogical.

[ShackledNoMore]

Prayers answered doesn't mean there's a god. It could be just coincidence.

 

It's more than just that.  Take prayers for healing and the natural progression of disease as an example.  Whether you pray or not, you're going to get worse, get better, or stay the same, but even then with good days and bad days.  It all but guarantees that if you're searching for a sign that you're prayers are answered, you will find it, whether it is an appeal to whatever god you believe in or simply the act of wearing your lucky socks.

 

It's works even better, far better, when you have a god that might say yes or might say no, but is attributed with knowing the Big Picture when you do not.

[sdelsolray]

 

 

Yes, I have interests.

 

 

 

Do you spend appropriate time pursuing those interests?

 

 

No

 

 

 

Do you plan to increase the time you spend with your non-work and non-religious related interests?

[Wittyusername]

 

 

Beyond that, a lot of Christians' prayers actually contradict Christian theology. If God knows best and has a perfect will, then how can we possibly change his mind? Also, if God loves people and wants to help them, then why would he require a bunch of people praying in order to heal someone, this making his interactions with one person dependent upon the actions of others? It really doesn't make any sense at all, and there's no good way around these problems.

That is true. On your last point, I have heard that the purpose of prayer is partially to develop a relationship with God. Jesus said in one of the gospels "God makes the rain fall on both the good and the evil, so bless those who curse you, etc." (paraphrased). However, by responding to prayer requests, God can increase the faith of believers and give them a feeling of being an integral part of His plans. Of course the Lord's prayer says "thy will be done", and Jesus said the same thing when He was dreading the expected crucifixion. If humans have free will then God's plans must constantly adapt to human choices. If humans do not have free will, then God's plan doesn't need to adapt. ... I'm not saying I believe all that stuff, but those are things I have heard.

Yeah, I also used to view prayer as instrumental in one's relationship with God. After all, we're talking about allegedly communing with The Almighty Creator here. However, prayer as a way to develop one's relationship with God really only makes sense with prayers that specifically pertain to the one who's praying and God. It doesn't make sense with prayers for other people, for the very reasons I mentioned above.

 

For example, a lot of Christians pray for the salvation of a loved one who's not interested in religion. Such a prayer makes no sense from either a Calvinist or an Arminian perspective. Calvinists claim that salvation is predestined and we have no say in the matter, so whether or not that person would become a Christian is already set in stone, so praying for them does nothing for them. Arminians claim that God loves us all and wants everybody to be saved, but such a God would not need compelling from third parties to do something in one's life to draw them to him, so praying for them does nothing for them. Praying for someone else makes no sense. It's simply illogical.

The illogical nature of prayer is one of the things that led me down this path.

 

I had got to the point where I accepted 'prayer is for us and to show us how weak we are and how much we need God and for us to spend time praising him and thanking him.'

 

- is he that insecure he needs fancy monkeys telling him he is great and we know it? If some children told me they liked the spreadsheet I had designed 1. I would know they could not really even understand it and they just liked the colours. 2. It makes no difference to me if they like it. It is to track the monthly sales or whatever. In the same way how could human praise really be meaningful.

 

Our pastor used to go so far as to thank God for giving us oxygen. It would be a dick move to create oxygen reliant creatures then not give access to it. Almost like allowing creatures that need food and clean water to starve and die if they don't have that.

 

I would just sit there thinking 'why am I doing this?' . My parents never expected me to grovel daily or bow down in thanks for providing me with the things I needed or treats. Why does God literally need a whole song and dance about it?

[directionless]

Do you plan to increase the time you spend with your non-work and non-religious related interests?

 

Why don't we just drop this or agree to disagree or something?

 

I'm sure you mean well with your questions, but they are like applying salt to my wounds. It's a long story.

[directionless]

 

 

 

Beyond that, a lot of Christians' prayers actually contradict Christian theology. If God knows best and has a perfect will, then how can we possibly change his mind? Also, if God loves people and wants to help them, then why would he require a bunch of people praying in order to heal someone, this making his interactions with one person dependent upon the actions of others? It really doesn't make any sense at all, and there's no good way around these problems.

That is true. On your last point, I have heard that the purpose of prayer is partially to develop a relationship with God. Jesus said in one of the gospels "God makes the rain fall on both the good and the evil, so bless those who curse you, etc." (paraphrased). However, by responding to prayer requests, God can increase the faith of believers and give them a feeling of being an integral part of His plans. Of course the Lord's prayer says "thy will be done", and Jesus said the same thing when He was dreading the expected crucifixion. If humans have free will then God's plans must constantly adapt to human choices. If humans do not have free will, then God's plan doesn't need to adapt. ... I'm not saying I believe all that stuff, but those are things I have heard.

Yeah, I also used to view prayer as instrumental in one's relationship with God. After all, we're talking about allegedly communing with The Almighty Creator here. However, prayer as a way to develop one's relationship with God really only makes sense with prayers that specifically pertain to the one who's praying and God. It doesn't make sense with prayers for other people, for the very reasons I mentioned above.

 

For example, a lot of Christians pray for the salvation of a loved one who's not interested in religion. Such a prayer makes no sense from either a Calvinist or an Arminian perspective. Calvinists claim that salvation is predestined and we have no say in the matter, so whether or not that person would become a Christian is already set in stone, so praying for them does nothing for them. Arminians claim that God loves us all and wants everybody to be saved, but such a God would not need compelling from third parties to do something in one's life to draw them to him, so praying for them does nothing for them. Praying for someone else makes no sense. It's simply illogical.

The illogical nature of prayer is one of the things that led me down this path.

 

I had got to the point where I accepted 'prayer is for us and to show us how weak we are and how much we need God and for us to spend time praising him and thanking him.'

 

- is he that insecure he needs fancy monkeys telling him he is great and we know it? If some children told me they liked the spreadsheet I had designed 1. I would know they could not really even understand it and they just liked the colours. 2. It makes no difference to me if they like it. It is to track the monthly sales or whatever. In the same way how could human praise really be meaningful.

 

Our pastor used to go so far as to thank God for giving us oxygen. It would be a dick move to create oxygen reliant creatures then not give access to it. Almost like allowing creatures that need food and clean water to starve and die if they don't have that.

 

I would just sit there thinking 'why am I doing this?' . My parents never expected me to grovel daily or bow down in thanks for providing me with the things I needed or treats. Why does God literally need a whole song and dance about it?

 

 

LOL, I like that about thanking God for oxygen

[dangitbobby83]

 

Do you plan to increase the time you spend with your non-work and non-religious related interests?

 

Why don't we just drop this or agree to disagree or something?

 

I'm sure you mean well with your questions, but they are like applying salt to my wounds. It's a long story.

 

 

His point is valid, though. If you have interests outside of religion, pursuing those interests can do wonders for you, mentally and emotionally. 

 

Picking up a hobby and getting good at it builds patience, pride in yourself, takes your mind off what is bothering you, lessens stress, and improves health and mood. 

 

I used to run an online business doing romance consulting and one of my largest groups of clients were those who had just broken up. My first thing I would do is to tell them to pick up a hobby and dive into it. Dwelling on some of this stuff that you're dwelling on doesn't do you any good, much like a person who has just experienced a break up with someone. Sitting around, doing nothing and just dwelling on this stuff does absolutely nothing good for you.

 

We're all here to help and there isn't anything wrong with coming and working through this stuff with you, just don't discount very good advice for whatever reasons, it'll do you more harm than good. 

[dichotomy]

Your prayers or not prayers will make no difference to another person's life. You're not putting anyone at risk if you don't pray. 

 

If god(s) wish to intervene in another person's life dilemma they will do so with or without your prayer.

 

If praying makes you feel better, then do it, but if you're just angsting and fretting and worrying about prayer, god, faith and religion in general, then that's not a healthy or positive way to be.

 

I'd choose to go down the route that makes you feel the least anxious, the least depressed, the least paranoid, the least powerless, the least helpless..... Those feelings may not go completely, but if you can lessen them in anyway then choose that course. It sounds like you need a rest and a break from your own brain. Mindfulness would probably be fantastic.

[Guest]

Sorry to jump in late, but I wanted to put in my two cents.

 

I think prayer can work regarding energy and positive thinking. If you are telling someone you're praying for them, and encouraging them, they're more likely to succeed. I also think there may be another sense to it as far as positive energy being directed to them, which they sense and receive. Idk. that's how I like to think about it.

[Guest Leah]

Although I have no faith, I find that at least imagining that God exists gives me some sort of foundation, eliminating a ton of problems. For example, when I renounced God altogether, I got a plethora of "mental problems". Now that I am taking the stance of at least imagining, have I become a slightly more stable person. It's liberating to think that God does not exist, but the high only lasts for so long in certain cases. Hope this helps..