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Goodbye Jesus

The Christian Bible Is Like A Map


humble

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And to anyone else, believe what you will. I don't care. I'm not here to sell any of you on anything.

I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with God, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

 

And to anyone else, believe what you will. I don't care. I'm not here to sell any of you on anything.

I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with MYSELF, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

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There are hindus, muslims, wiccans, sikhs, mormons, catholics, christians, and a whole slew of fringe crazy cults who have also, supposedly, have had a direct experience with god.

 

I myself thought I had a very direct experience with god, both in supposedly answered prayers, conversion experiences, and dreams. You know what it was? My freaking brain. That's it. Hypnosis can cause the same sort of experiences. So can drugs. So can mental disorders.

 

In the end, they were no different than those who have "experiences" in different religions - and guess what? Most all claim the other religions are wrong!

 

So you are no different any of the others and your special pleading amounts to nothing. You believe it because you want to believe it, whether or not it is true, the same as all those other people from other religions. 

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I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with God, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

 

My life got better when I got divorced from a Christian, stopped going to church, started living in 'sin' with another woman and eventually told Jesus I'd be handling my own life without him.

 

 

 

That's funny, same for me. Must be SATAN zDuivel7.gif ukliam2.gif firedevil.gif

 

 

Interesting how that happens, eh? 

 

You would think if Christianity is the be-all, end-all cure that christians claim it is, no one would leave.

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I'm curious, Humble. During the Bosnia crisis of the 1990s, 50,000 Bosnia women, and girls--some as young as 10 years old--were rounded up and forced into rape camps where they would be systematically brutalized, beaten, and gang-raped by drunken Serbian soldiers on a nightly basis.

 

50,000 girls experienced this horror. 50,000...

 

And your god did NOTHING.

 

Yet you believe that you are special enough for god to give you a personal experience of himself. He likes you so much that he's willing to help you out in your personal life, even though he won't lift a finger to help a 10 year old Bosnia girl.

 

Are you really so arrogant? Do you genuinely believe that your "personal" experience should outweigh the experiences of 50,000 people?

 

How about 6.5 million of god's "chosen" people?

 

How about the 6 billion other people who currently occupy this planet? Did god pick you out from among all of them because you really are just that special?

 

Really?

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I guess an apologist might say those rapists will get their punishment in the afterlife, but what if they repent? Either way, it doesn't help those poor bosnians in the here and now, does it?

 

Many of them were murdered as well, and since they were Muslim, they will continue to suffer in the afterlife according to fundie logic, at the hands of their oppressors version of God. Justice!

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I guess an apologist might say those rapists will get their punishment in the afterlife, but what if they repent? Either way, it doesn't help those poor bosnians in the here and now, does it?

 

Many of them were murdered as well, and since they were Muslim, they will continue to suffer in the afterlife according to fundie logic, at the hands of their oppressors version of God. Justice!

Ironically, the Serbian soldiers, being "christians", also had a "personal experience" with god; and they felt themselves responsible for "bearing witness" to their experience.  

 

The message god gave them was to rid Yugoslavia of the muslim hoards.

 

So, all the plundering, murder, genocide, and even the raping of 10 year old girls, really is just a part of god's plan... innit?

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Many theist "revelationists" claim special knowledge or experience.  They buy into the Pauline snake oil nonsense.  But it makes them feel special, which I guess is some consolation, at least for them.

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It really is a waste of time for an unbeliever to quote scripture to a true believer, because the unbeliever, in their ignorance and hardened heart, will always quote out of context, or misuse the scripture passage in some way, to simply manipulate the believer.

Having any good discussion about Bible passages when unbelievers cannot argue correctly the content of the Bible is a lesson in futility. It simply cannot be done. God does not allow any person who has intentionally chosen to turn away from Him to understand the mysteries or universal knowledge of His Word.

Just curious humble, but who do you think is the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, and why?

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Many theist "revelationists" claim special knowledge or experience.  They buy into the Pauline snake oil nonsense.  But it makes them feel special, which I guess is some consolation, at least for them.

 

It'd be interesting to see Justus and humble go at it.

 

Seeing as they've both received special knowledge from different divine sources.

 

wink.png

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Storm: I don't think it wrong for the church to tell us to "stay in the Word", or "study the Bible", per se. It's just that we get little guidance in how to do it properly. Why? Perhaps because very few church leaders really have the answer.

Sure, they have all the book-smarts. They were formally taught. Went to seminary. They love their churches and congregations. But they don't know how to lead people to God, because they have never truly built a real, personal relationship with God themselves.

Just as I could never tell you how to build and grow a successful business effectively, if my own experience included simply reading a book and taking a class on it.

I need experience, which may include failing first if I try on my own, or finding someone who has actually succeeded and learning from them. Go into any bookstore or look online today and you will find thousands of people who claim to know the right ways to build a successful business. How do you decide who has good, repeatable information? You can tell who has succeeded by the fruit of their efforts.

I would argue that there is more than one way to have and run a successful business. Each person experienced their success in a different way. But you also have to understand that success is measured differently by different people. What I might consider a successful business may not be what you consider to be a successful business. The irony is not lost on me that this analogy about being successful in business also mirrors the topic of discussion you are presenting regarding being a "true Christian". There is only one thing you must do to be a Christian (from Romans 10:9-10):

"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

 

If you do this, you are considered successful in the eyes of God and you will be granted eternal life and will not be condemned to an eternity of torment. Anything else is simply fluff and is subjective to the person who is perceiving and judging. But how do you quantify "success" as a christian? That is the $64,000 question. Life (or god, if you will) has not given us equal ground to cover in the race of life. Some have an easier time, and others not so much. Reminds me of the meme where it shows a whole group of different animals (Monkey, Elephant, Penguin, Fish,  Dog, Seal, etc) standing in front of a judge and the judge says "For a fair selection, everyone will have to take the same test. Please climb that tree." So, some will have an easier time and others, not so much. So we consider them a failure if they cannot complete their task? Is the monkey a success because it can do it so easily? These answers do not come as easily as one might think.

 

One problem with studying the Bible is where to start? If we simply start at the OT beginning with Genesis and move book-by-book, very quickly we will get mired in confusion, mixed messages, and become offended. (See violetbutterfly's Deuteronomy 21:10-14 passage as a good example.)

As I've mentioned in my earlier post, properly understanding context is critical. It can completely change the idea or meaning of a passage or statement.

The focus of the OT was towards one small segment of the total population of that time. The Jewish people and their culture. Yet, today Christians commonly read the OT as if it is written as a direct message to us in today's culture. It is not! I personally know leaders in men's ministry who mis-interpret the frustration and anger of God at the Jewish people of ancient times, and assume that God's anger still exists and is directed at us today. This is not true, and it is not biblical.

 

Over the course of history, God has made a number of covenants, starting exclusively with the Jewish people, and then, with Jesus' ministry and subsequent physical death on the cross, extending to all people.

The OT was directed at the ancient Jewish people.

The Gospels and NT are directed at all people since Jesus' birth.

The gospels and the NT are directed towards Christians, just as the OT is directed towards Jews. There is no difference, despite the belief that you hold that it is. Each book of the NT was written to a specific audience, not to everyone as a whole. There may be some universal truth that may apply to the masses in those books, but they were not written for the masses, as you assert.

 

That is not to say the OT is a throw-away book. It is important. But after Genesis and Exodus, a believer should stay in the Gospels and NT writings until they have a very firm understanding of the covenant that believers now live under.

If God is the same yesterday and today and forever, why only focus on the NT? Why would I need to focus on the latter before I understood the former? Its almost as if you are advocating that you want to protect a new believer from harm.

 

Most Christians (about 98% based on one study) believe that the endgame of their faith is all about being saved. Making it to heaven.

Obviously, this would be important to a believer, but what the Christian "culture or religion" have hidden from people, is that salvation is just the starting point of what God has given us.

 

After they accept salvation, they sit firmly resting on their hands, and wonder why things aren't getting better. Is this it? Is this all there is to believing in God? What's the point?

The problem is, they never knew to explore further, or how to do it.

I would say that your life is not any different than any other christian. The only difference is your subjective mindset. I would argue that there is nothing that you do that would distinguish what you believe to be any different than the majority of the Christians you claim that haven't "figured it out". You have succumbed to the Dunning-Kruger effect. Your own bias leads you to think that you have it figured out.

 

It's like saving all year to take your family to Disney World. Building up the excitement level and all.

You finally get there, buy your tickets, pass through the gate.

There is lush, beautiful flowers, plants, and greenery everywhere. A park bench sits to one side.

You look around, don't see much else, and take a seat on the bench, thinking to yourself "I made it!"

A few hours later, with nothing new or interesting going on, you become bored. You start to wonder "Why did I come here? What's so great about this?"

And either you sit there in your boredom on the bench, or you start to wander back out of the park.

 

What was missed in the "travel brochure" among the clutter of advertisements for local restaurants, theaters, and nightclubs, was the page that showed "You Are Here-->". "Follow this small, nondescript trail to the Magic Kingdom."

 

Sound like a child's fairy tale? I choose my words intentionally.

I know that my words will be mocked and criticized, and I'll be slandered. I've mocked others for similar ideas.

Interestingly, it comes from non-believers and believers alike. Perhaps I enjoy having hatred aimed at me. Don't most people?huh.png

The problem for me is that God showed me that nondescript path, in essentially a 2-step process in my case.

He started in the midst of me getting "hammered" by 4 atheists in a forum such as this one, but for Christian believers.

And I've been following it and exploring it for the past 4 years, and it has been quite amazing.

 

Your getting "hammered by 4 atheists" only forced you to reinforce what you already believed, or worked to formulate a variation of it. You most likely didn't change much about what you already believed. . This provides me an opportunity to quote one of my favorite quotes about the human mind because it fits this situation well: "...the human brain is, in large part, a machine for winning arguments, a machine for convincing others that its owner is in the right – and thus a machine for convincing its owner of the same thing. The brain is like a good lawyer: given any set of interests to defend, it sets about convincing the world of their moral and logical worth, regardless of whether they, in fact, have any of either. Like a lawyer, the human brain wants victory, not truth; and, like a lawyer, it is sometimes more admirable for skill, than virtue" Robert Wright (The Moral Animal)

I think this quote adequately sums up why you are here.

 

-----------------------------------------

 

And to anyone else, believe what you will. I don't care. I'm not here to sell any of you on anything.

I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with God, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

You betray your proposed "innocence" in this statement. If you are not here to sell us on anything, then why come here? But in the very next line you say your mission is just to "witness things you have personally seen or experienced". So you are selling salvation and a whole lot more (using your own words). You are either here because you feel it is important to share your story and feel good that you are making an effort to reach those who are lost (thus stroking your own ego), or you are here because you feel that it is your obligation to share your story and you are simply doing as you are commanded (thus stroking your god's ego, making it so he will reward you for your "faithful service"). Either way, you do care and you are here for a reason. Don't lie to us. That only hurts your credibility.

 

As others have pointed out, your subjective experiences do not constitute as proof for anything. Your experience has little bearing on anyone's life on these forums. We have all been there. To belittle us and minimize our own personal experience with Christianity by stating that we were not "true Christians" only makes us more unlikely to listen to what you have to offer. I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I actually had a very positive experience with Christianity. I did not leave because I got hurt or had a vendetta. I actually miss who I was as a Christian. I miss feeling like I had something to offer at my church. But, I left because Christianity had too many holes and didn't make sense in so many ways. It failed to live up to what it claimed to be. It is nothing more than a man made coping mechanism for life. 

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* And just a quick fact about the status of women in the Christian Holy Bible: in the first book Genesis, regarding the creation of Adam and Eve, although Adam was created first, Eve was created as an equal human, but actually God's crowning achievement of all creation! Eve was the culmination of His perfect creation! This was the status of women in the world. This is what God intended.

 

* It really is a waste of time for an unbeliever to quote scripture to a true believer, because the unbeliever, in their ignorance and hardened heart, will always quote out of context, or misuse the scripture passage in some way, to simply manipulate the believer.

 

Do you really, really, really, really believe in this story? Now, please answer this question for me 'humble'. This whole issue was between  Adam and Eve and God. They were the only humans alive 'in the beginning', right? With exception to the fish, birds and animals, right? That's what this whole beginning story is about, right? That's all that was on the earth at the time, right? Are you with me?  Then.....Who was the stenographer who stood outside the garden gates and documented all this??? Answer that for me please.

 

And did you realize that our 'all powerful, intelligent god' wanted Adam to go find a mate with the animals first?? Then when Adam could not find an acceptable 'mate' among the animals, he then decided to give Adam 'an operation' and took a rib from him and made woman?? Does this sound intelligent to you? This is the story you really believe??

 

The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”  Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man… but for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the Lord God… (decided in his dumbness because that intelligent plan didn't work....) made a woman… and he brought her to the man. (Now where did the part go that he had to put Adam asleep to do the operation?? Looks like she was fully formed??)

~ Genesis 2:18-22...    This is the book you believe for 'The map'??

 

Picture poor ole' Adam. 'Choose ye now a suitable helper from one of my many animal creations', God probably ordered in a somber tone. Can't you just imagine  Adam was a bit apprehensive? 'Surely,' he must have thought, 'This must be the first practical joke!' Why else would God make a mate for everyone but me? But Adam didn’t want to seem rude. After all, he was new at this, and God knew everything about everything......

 

I won't be too hard on you because there was a time when I fell for (and completely believed) the whole bullshit story also............Then my intelligence kicked in.

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As for "hardened hearts", well... Yeah, you bet my heart is hardened, hardened against bullshit, injustice, brainwashing, fear mongering, willful ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, smugness, homophobia, misogyny, tribalism and whole slew of other things.

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As for "hardened hearts", well... Yeah, you bet my heart is hardened, hardened against bullshit, injustice, brainwashing, fear mongering, willful ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, smugness, homophobia, misogyny, tribalism and whole slew of other things.

Amen to this rjn!! woohoo.gif

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* And just a quick fact about the status of women in the Christian Holy Bible: in the first book Genesis, regarding the creation of Adam and Eve, although Adam was created first, Eve was created as an equal human, but actually God's crowning achievement of all creation! Eve was the culmination of His perfect creation! This was the status of women in the world. This is what God intended.

 

* It really is a waste of time for an unbeliever to quote scripture to a true believer, because the unbeliever, in their ignorance and hardened heart, will always quote out of context, or misuse the scripture passage in some way, to simply manipulate the believer.

 

Do you really, really, really, really believe in this story? Now, please answer this question for me 'humble'. This whole issue was between  Adam and Eve and God. They were the only humans alive 'in the beginning', right? With exception to the fish, birds and animals, right? That's what this whole beginning story is about, right? That's all that was on the earth at the time, right? Are you with me?  Then.....Who was the stenographer who stood outside the garden gates and documented all this??? Answer that for me please.

 

And did you realize that our 'all powerful, intelligent god' wanted Adam to go find a mate with the animals first?? Then when Adam could not find an acceptable 'mate' among the animals, he then decided to give Adam 'an operation' and took a rib from him and made woman?? Does this sound intelligent to you? This is the story you really believe??

 

The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”  Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man… but for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the Lord God… (decided in his dumbness because that intelligent plan didn't work....) made a woman… and he brought her to the man. (Now where did the part go that he had to put Adam asleep to do the operation?? Looks like she was fully formed??)

~ Genesis 2:18-22...    This is the book you believe for 'The map'??

 

Picture poor ole' Adam. 'Choose ye now a suitable helper from one of my many animal creations', God probably ordered in a somber tone. Can't you just imagine  Adam was a bit apprehensive? 'Surely,' he must have thought, 'This must be the first practical joke!' Why else would God make a mate for everyone but me? But Adam didn’t want to seem rude. After all, he was new at this, and God knew everything about everything......

 

I won't be too hard on you because there was a time when I fell for (and completely believed) the whole bullshit story also............Then my intelligence kicked in.

 

 

Not only do Christians suspend disbelief in their religion, they throw away their dignity when they agree to believe absurd bible baloney in order to make points with their imaginary friend.

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Just remember that all bibles come equipped with a free pair of blinders and a fact proof vest. These cult followers are not interested in the evidence and facts. They don't care if history proves the bible to be wrong. They don't care about the fact that the bible contains numerous false prophesies that did not come true. They don't care that you can prove the bible to be completely fake from genesis to revelation, or the fact that the bible, especially the new testament contains countless verses that they plagiarized from earlier indian traditions thousands of years before it was written and passed it off as their own divinely inspired, never before heard words. This is what happens when people are too cowardly to check the facts for themselves. They are so far removed from reality and psychological health, that they don't care what you have to say at all. They are not interested in listening to you, they are only interested in you listening to them. They are thoroughly brainwashed into believing that whatever you have to say is from the devil and should be ignored. They think that they are right no matter what, and you are wrong...period.

 

Christians have chosen to be willfully ignorant of reality and the truth that the bible is not true. Education is the enemy to christians.

 

 

 

13269257_578400165662981_308674692147603

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As for "hardened hearts", well... Yeah, you bet my heart is hardened, hardened against bullshit, injustice, brainwashing, fear mongering, willful ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, smugness, homophobia, misogyny, tribalism and whole slew of other things.

 

I LOVE this!

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I'm curious, Humble. During the Bosnia crisis of the 1990s, 50,000 Bosnia women, and girls--some as young as 10 years old--were rounded up and forced into rape camps where they would be systematically brutalized, beaten, and gang-raped by drunken Serbian soldiers on a nightly basis.

 

50,000 girls experienced this horror. 50,000...

 

And your god did NOTHING.

 

Yet you believe that you are special enough for god to give you a personal experience of himself. He likes you so much that he's willing to help you out in your personal life, even though he won't lift a finger to help a 10 year old Bosnia girl.

 

Are you really so arrogant? Do you genuinely believe that your "personal" experience should outweigh the experiences of 50,000 people?

 

How about 6.5 million of god's "chosen" people?

 

How about the 6 billion other people who currently occupy this planet? Did god pick you out from among all of them because you really are just that special?

 

Really?

Since you've deigned to grace us with your most humble presence again, O Chosen One, perhaps you'd also take it upon your most humble self to address this post.  We insignificant imps, pale though we are in comparison with One So Special, eagerly anticipate your most lofty counsel.

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