What's The Point?

[Bedouin]

I'm just about ready to stop being an outspoken atheist.  I mean really, what's the point?  Nothing I say, no pithy, sarcastic memes I post to FB are going to change christians one bit, either as individuals or as an ever encroaching political force in the U.S.

 

While it may be obvious to folks like us that the god idea is without any proof, it is not so obvious to those that say they believe.  Or at least want to believe.

 

Plus, by constantly arguing against the existence of a god or gods, aren't we conceding that there is/are a god or gods?  Doesn't our discussion imply that there is even anything to believe?  Much like we wouldn't argue against Santa or the Easter Bunny, or Elves etc.,  because the vast majority of adults know that these are merely fantasy and fairy tales, and therefore not even worth the time arguing against.

 

Doesn't the very attention we give to theism somehow afford it a reality?

 

I find that it has become exhausting mentally and emotionally to keep banging my head against a wall that shouldn't exist in the first place.

[florduh]

Doesn't the very attention we give to theism somehow afford it a reality?

Yes, which is why I don't think about religion other than in the context of this site, where I'm convinced people have been helped by delving into the subject.

 

Faith, by its very definition, will always trump fact. There is no point in arguing with the faithful unless the undecided are watching the debate. This occurs regularly around here.

[hockeyfan70]

I'm just about ready to stop being an outspoken atheist.  I mean really, what's the point?  Nothing I say, no pithy, sarcastic memes I post to FB are going to change christians one bit, either as individuals or as an ever encroaching political force in the U.S.

 

While it may be obvious to folks like us that the god idea is without any proof, it is not so obvious to those that say they believe.  Or at least want to believe.

 

Plus, by constantly arguing against the existence of a god or gods, aren't we conceding that there is/are a god or gods?  Doesn't our discussion imply that there is even anything to believe?  Much like we wouldn't argue against Santa or the Easter Bunny, or Elves etc.,  because the vast majority of adults know that these are merely fantasy and fairy tales, and therefore not even worth the time arguing against.

 

Doesn't the very attention we give to theism somehow afford it a reality?

 

I find that it has become exhausting mentally and emotionally to keep banging my head against a wall that shouldn't exist in the first place.

You never know what influence you may have on someone though. 

 

Kind of like that biblical theme of planting a seed. You may only plant a seed, but someone else may water it. Of course the biblical theme is that god makes it grow, but the idea I think is valid. A year ago, there's no way I would have predicted that this is where I am now. I had a friend who was going through the same struggles with faith, combined with some really shitty church experiences, combined with crap in my own life that was screwing with my head, and voila here I am now. If it wasn't for my friend helping me through, who knows what would have happened.

[TABA]

I'm just about ready to stop being an outspoken atheist.  I mean really, what's the point?  Nothing I say, no pithy, sarcastic memes I post to FB are going to change christians one bit, either as individuals or as an ever encroaching political force in the U.S.

 

While it may be obvious to folks like us that the god idea is without any proof, it is not so obvious to those that say they believe.  Or at least want to believe.

 

Plus, by constantly arguing against the existence of a god or gods, aren't we conceding that there is/are a god or gods?  Doesn't our discussion imply that there is even anything to believe?  Much like we wouldn't argue against Santa or the Easter Bunny, or Elves etc.,  because the vast majority of adults know that these are merely fantasy and fairy tales, and therefore not even worth the time arguing against.

 

Doesn't the very attention we give to theism somehow afford it a reality?

 

I find that it has become exhausting mentally and emotionally to keep banging my head against a wall that shouldn't exist in the first place.

As HF70 said, we can be an important source of support to others who may be struggling with religion. Most of us have given and received valuable support and encouragement here on these forums, but in the wider world, if we are seen to be good, decent, happy people who just happen to be without belief in gods, that may very well encourage others to question what they've believed. I think there a lot of people, especially in the USA, who are nominally Christian, but are not devout believers. The more they become aware that there are well-adjusted, non-angry unbelievers among them, the more comfortable they are going to be accepting and embracing unbelief in themselves. So we don't have to be evangelical atheists. You know that people are often repelled by pushy evangelical religious types, and are more likely to be impressed by believers who just go about their business and are good, happy people, so it goes for unbelievers, I think.

[Guest Furball]

While I agree with what you say to a point. I find posting atheist rants to be cathartic. Also, the fact that christians keep shoving their insane beliefs in my face and telling me how horrible of a person I am, I think it is only fair to push back against them with logic, reason, evidence and atheist meme's showing them just how stupid and insane their beliefs are. Besides, you never know who is listening, they may actually seek out the evidence for themselves, and upon finding none to support their views, they may actually leave their man made religion and come back to reality. Sites like this really help people, so I don't believe it is a waste of time. But to each his own. -peace

[midniterider]

I'm just about ready to stop being an outspoken atheist.  I mean really, what's the point?  Nothing I say, no pithy, sarcastic memes I post to FB are going to change christians one bit, either as individuals or as an ever encroaching political force in the U.S.

 

While it may be obvious to folks like us that the god idea is without any proof, it is not so obvious to those that say they believe.  Or at least want to believe.

 

Plus, by constantly arguing against the existence of a god or gods, aren't we conceding that there is/are a god or gods?  Doesn't our discussion imply that there is even anything to believe?  Much like we wouldn't argue against Santa or the Easter Bunny, or Elves etc.,  because the vast majority of adults know that these are merely fantasy and fairy tales, and therefore not even worth the time arguing against.

 

Doesn't the very attention we give to theism somehow afford it a reality?

 

I find that it has become exhausting mentally and emotionally to keep banging my head against a wall that shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

I believe in a variety of things. It's not important that people agree with me.

 

It's fun to debate, yes. But really why does someone 'need' to believe what I believe or think the way I think? To exert control over them? That's what religion does. Controls people. So I let people have their wacky beliefs and I'll have my own wacky beliefs (world view).

[Margee]

You cannot change people unless they are completely open to change. My cousin, who was a total atheist tried everything in his power to talk sense into me when I was so enthralled with fundamentalism. I was not open to hear what he was saying. Actually, at that point I (secretly) thought he was sent from the devil to deceive me even though I loved him with all my heart. I don't have the fight in me to argue with anyone. I scroll right by all the religious stuff my family and friends send on face book and never press the 'like' button at all. If I sent anything that attacked god in any way, I would be hammered. I prefer peace now. The only place I vent is here. I like to help a little with the new open-minded newcomers who join Ex-c because they are asking questions about the christian god. They are the ones who are open to change.

 

I'm afraid it's not me who is going to change the world. I'm too tired now. I just wanna have fun.

 

(hugs)

[Bedouin]

I'm not looking to have anyone agree with me, but would like to at least prompt a conversation.  I think that Margee gets close to the non-reaction I get, in that many of my christian friends and relatives see me as sent from the devil to tempt them towards the evil of knowledge.  I've never gotten a "you're a terrible person who's going to hell" response, though I'm sure many definitely think that.

[WarriorPoet]

 

I'm just about ready to stop being an outspoken atheist.

That's ok.  It's not for everyone.  Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean that you are expected to be on the front lines of the debate between religion and reason.

 

 

Plus, by constantly arguing against the existence of a god or gods, aren't we conceding that there is/are a god or gods?  Doesn't our discussion imply that there is even anything to believe?  Much like we wouldn't argue against Santa or the Easter Bunny, or Elves etc.,  because the vast majority of adults know that these are merely fantasy and fairy tales, and therefore not even worth the time arguing against.

You mostly answered your own question here.  The beliefs in god/gods can be and are harmful to many of the people that hold those beliefs, and are harmful to the people around them.  The vast majority of prejudice against LGBT people has religious roots.  There are numerous self-castrations by men around the world because of the words of Jesus (Matt 19:12).  The difference between god and Santa is that so many people DO believe in god.  I don't have a problem with their belief, and neither do most outspoken atheists, it's what they do with those beliefs that causes problems.  If they could just believe and keep it to themselves, we would pack up our atheism and go home, but they don't.  They try to cram their god into our government, schools, and hospitals, to the detriment of many.

 

 

Doesn't the very attention we give to theism somehow afford it a reality?

Theism is a reality, that which it posits has not yet been proven.

 

There is a quote from House that has become popular.  "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people".  On some level that may be true, but just look at this site.  We are all ex-christians.  Most of us were reasoned out of our faith, and quite often, the beginning of that reasoning was an outspoken atheist that asked a few questions or raised some good points that stuck with us.

[Daffodil]

This site is an excellent place to vent and really get the anger and frustration out that many of us feel - all the wasted years, money, time, prayers, energy spent on an imaginary sky fairy. I don't, however, think it is ever useful to let that anger out around believers. It just gives fuel to their arguments - "Well, if you don't believe there is a god, why are you so angry about it!? You must deep down really believe and are just mad about something God did or didn't do." The best response, in my opinion, is to smile and refuse to get drawn in. I think it drives them nuts to not be able to rile you. As you just live your life with the serenity of knowing that you are really and truly the captain of your own ship, that in itself will make the most questioning of them stop and think.

[Blindsighted]

It was a meme on Facebook that finally cracked the wall of Christisnity for me. Keep posting them. It may help someone.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Plus, by constantly arguing against the existence of a god or gods, aren't we conceding that there is/are a god or gods?  Doesn't our discussion imply that there is even anything to believe?  Much like we wouldn't argue against Santa or the Easter Bunny, or Elves etc.,  because the vast majority of adults know that these are merely fantasy and fairy tales, and therefore not even worth the time arguing against.

 

Doesn't the very attention we give to theism somehow afford it a reality?

 

No. Not at all.

 

Since you brought up Santa, what about the kids who realize that Santa isn't real and point that out to other kids? Does their arguing against the existence of Santa somehow afford it reality? Of course not.

 

The reason adults don't waste their time arguing against Santa is because we don't have adults trying to legislate based on Santa Claus, and they're not out there preaching that those who don't believe in Santa are horrible, wicked people willfully rebelling against Santa.

 

If pointing out flaws in something gave validity to the thing with flaws, then there would be no need for investigations of any sort, because every time they found evidence that a claim wasn't true, it would thus mean that the claim was true. It should be quite obvious that that's a bit silly.

 

However, I do largely agree with your other statement about arguing not changing believers' minds. While there are exceptions, for the most part you're right there.

[Jeff]

I actually think a dismissive Athiest sometimes has a harder punch to a believer than a rational confrontation.

[Jeff]

I truly respect the rational debate and am getting better at it but I only do that with people who want to know, who want to talk about it.

[Vigile]

I figure evangelism is for the believers. There's a sense of peace in not being burdened with trying to convert someone. Fundies are a dying breed with or without us. Just let nature take its course. 

[Guest Furball]

You cannot change people unless they are completely open to change. My cousin, who was a total atheist tried everything in his power to talk sense into me when I was so enthralled with fundamentalism. I was not open to hear what he was saying. Actually, at that point I (secretly) thought he was sent from the devil to deceive me even though I loved him with all my heart. I don't have the fight in me to argue with anyone. I scroll right by all the religious stuff my family and friends send on face book and never press the 'like' button at all. If I sent anything that attacked god in any way, I would be hammered. I prefer peace now. The only place I vent is here. I like to help a little with the new open-minded newcomers who join Ex-c because they are asking questions about the christian god. They are the ones who are open to change.

 

 

I had read an article awhile back that said when a christian is confronted with the truth about their religion, the facts and evidence that are presented  to them often create immediate psychological discomfort, which causes them to actually dig deeper into their imaginary beliefs/blind faith instead of facing the truth and accepting the reality of the situation. I believe it's called cognitive dissonance. It's too painful for them to face the reality that their cherished beliefs are actually false, so they just push themselves further into the comfort of delusion where it is safer for them. 

[Thought2Much]

I had read an article awhile back that said when a christian is confronted with the truth about their religion, the facts and evidence that are presented  to them often create immediate psychological discomfort, which causes them to actually dig deeper into their imaginary beliefs/blind faith instead of facing the truth and accepting the reality of the situation. I believe it's called cognitive dissonance. It's too painful for them to face the reality that their cherished beliefs are actually false, so they just push themselves further into the comfort of delusion where it is safer for them. 

 

 

There's cognitive dissonance, and there's also belief perseverance, which is explained in this blog post.

 

Between cognitive dissonance, belief perseverance, the Dunning-Kruger effect, and just plain basic stupidity, I think all of the forces of psychology are against us. Whether we're trying to convince assholes to vaccinate their damn kids, or that anthropogenic climate change is actually happening, or that dinosaurs weren't on the Noah's fucking ark (or that there wasn't even a fucking ark to begin with), there's just no convincing people how fucking stupid they are, because they're too fucking stupid to even realize it.

 

I'm very, very quiet on Facebook about pretty much anything, because I don't feel like arguing with morons anymore. I just share generic science articles and cute things about my kids. I get more than enough stress at my job, I don't also need it on Facebook.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I echo furball in that I typically only post things on other forums if the person is stating really stupid beliefs as fact. I then mock the foundations of the faith (magic fruit tree that a god desperately does not want them to eat from, but plants in the same garden where they live; a god impressed with a tower that could reach to heaven - but today we build skyscrapers, have airplanes, and rockets that have sent people to the moon and back and probes clear out of the solar system). I usually get all the thumbs-down in the world, but more recently I'm seeing more chime in about the foolish myths. This is good because religion and churches have a default respect in our culture, and that needs to be unplugged.

[Guest]

First of all, sharing your philosophical thoughts on Facebook is your right. It's your space; nobody has the authority to judge you or mistreat you due to your beliefs. Furthermore, I wouldn't stop just because you don't think you're making an impact. Back when I was religious, many of my athiests friends posted very good arguments on Facebook, and now that I am also an atheist, I have gone back and turned to those arguments for help, as I still have trauma that forces me to believe in hell and Biblegod.

 

Also, I think the answer to your question regarding the possibility of God is "yes." There is always a possibility. Because there is evidence for a creator and evidence against a creator, one cannot come to a direct conclusion. There is also the aspect of faith, as others have mentioned. You aren't lesser because you create this question with your arguments. The key is that in this question lies the evidence you are giving for your own beliefs that there is no God. That alone may someday be a lifeline for someone. It was for me.

[Bedouin]

I've never had anyone on FB tell me that I shouldn't be posting atheist stuff, or try to bully me in any way.  Mostly, I get silence, with the occasional thumbs up.  I guess I should be okay with that, but I almost wish someone would come back with rebuttals. 

 

Everyone that has commented on this thread:  You've been a great help, making valid points and sharing your own experiences.  Thank you!

[Vigile]

I tend to avoid religion on FB, but I once mildly criticized the military's role in foreign policy and several of my family members went ballistic. Religion isn't the 3rd rail, patriotism is.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I've never even set up a Facebook account, largely because most of my family is very religious and I don't want to have to put up with all the religious BS. I prefer to live and let live, but I'm sure it would be difficult with what some would probably be posting. I really don't need yet one more thing vying for my time anyway, but I do have some atheist friends who have encouraged me to get on FB and I have considered it.

[Ellinas]

Nothing wrong with being an outspoken atheist if it is something you want to do.

 

And, by the way, I say that as someone who is not an atheist.

 

You do not validate the existence of deity by arguing against it, save in the minds of the faithful.  You just recognise that the idea exists.

 

You will not convince the determined believer.  But you may offer a lifeline to the person drowning in the bullshit - whether or not that person ends up an atheist, you may at least provide the framework for them to think their way out of the mire of crap that is imposed by religion.

 

And that, to my mind, is a very good thing.

[Burny]

I'm not looking to have anyone agree with me, but would like to at least prompt a conversation.  I think that Margee gets close to the non-reaction I get, in that many of my christian friends and relatives see me as sent from the devil to tempt them towards the evil of knowledge.  I've never gotten a "you're a terrible person who's going to hell" response, though I'm sure many definitely think that.

I continue to experience exactly the same non reaction from fundy family and former friends. I used to be very passionate about being an atheist but it left me feeling somewhat hollow since everyone I was trying to reach just thought I was the devil and ignored it all. For the past year I've been pretty chill about things and I'm a much happier person.

 

I have my limits though. When shit gets real I definitely speak up, or when people around me are talking stuff that doesn't make sense. Or when I notice obvious child abuse in the form of extreme indoctrination.

[Burny]

I've never even set up a Facebook account, largely because most of my family is very religious and I don't want to have to put up with all the religious BS. I prefer to live and let live, but I'm sure it would be difficult with what some would probably be posting. I really don't need yet one more thing vying for my time anyway, but I do have some atheist friends who have encouraged me to get on FB and I have considered it.

You can adjust Facebook settings to ignore the fundies and just have it as a communication tool.