How To Make A Christian Absolutely Livid

[SkepticalDaniel]

Christians love to say that the God of the Bible is perfectly good, and can do no evil, and that Satan is the one who causes evil. However, their Bible seems to disagree with them on that one.

 

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

 

Right there, the OT God openly admits that HE is the one who creates evil, not Satan. Whenever I quote this at a Christian, the butt hurt is immense!

[sdelsolray]

Christians love to say that the God of the Bible is perfectly good, and can do no evil, and that Satan is the one who causes evil. However, their Bible seems to disagree with them on that one.

 

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

 

Right there, the OT God openly admits that HE is the one who creates evil, not Satan. Whenever I quote this at a Christian, the butt hurt is immense!

 

That translation may have a problem, particularly concerning the source word for "evil".  Please research further.

[SkepticalDaniel]

 

Christians love to say that the God of the Bible is perfectly good, and can do no evil, and that Satan is the one who causes evil. However, their Bible seems to disagree with them on that one.

 

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

 

Right there, the OT God openly admits that HE is the one who creates evil, not Satan. Whenever I quote this at a Christian, the butt hurt is immense!

That translation may have a problem, particularly concerning the source word for "evil". Please research further.

The word for "evil" in that Passage is Strong's Hebrew #7451, which means evil naturally or morally. This same word also appears in Genesis 2:17 in which God instructed Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[duderonomy]

Some versions translate "evil" as "chaos" in Isaiah .45:7, but what does it matter? Would you rather have evil from the god of love, or chaos from the god that isn't the author of confusion?

 

Either way it came from Biblegod, or he isn't the only creator. 

[SkepticalDaniel]

Some versions translate "evil" as "chaos" in Isaiah .45:7, but what does it matter? Would you rather have evil from the god of love, or chaos from the god that isn't the author of confusion?

 

Either way it came from Biblegod, or he isn't the only creator.

The Jewish rabbis say the same thing about Isaiah 45:7, that the God creates both good and evil.

[harvester77]

 

Christians love to say that the God of the Bible is perfectly good, and can do no evil, and that Satan is the one who causes evil. However, their Bible seems to disagree with them on that one.

 

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

 

Right there, the OT God openly admits that HE is the one who creates evil, not Satan. Whenever I quote this at a Christian, the butt hurt is immense!

 

That translation may have a problem, particularly concerning the source word for "evil".  Please research further.

 

If this translastion has a problem so does a lot of other things in the scriptures!

[ironhorse]

The following was written by a rabbi.
~ Biblical Hermeneutics 

 

The answer isn't difficult if you get the translation right. The translation used in the question is skewed by some to fit with the image that G-d only creates good. That is not Isaiah's lesson. He is teaching that there is only one G-d and that G-d creates all things.

The question here makes that analysis difficult because it mistranslates a single, simple Hebrew word. Rather than "calamity" the translation should say "evil" as the Hebrew text uses the word "ra" (spelled resh ayin). The word "ra" means "evil" -- often evil that men choose to do. It is used in Deuteronomy 30:15, where it is written, "See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil [Hebrew: "ra"]."

Following that verse, the next four verses tell the people how to choose life and good by walking in G-d's ways, keeping His commandments, statutes and ordinances, and avoiding sin, especially idolatry.

The key part of that lecture is that man has choices to make between good [tov] and evil [ra], and he can make those choices because he has free will, and with the correct choice, i.e. good, he gets life, whereas choosing evil gets him death (whether in this world or in the afterlife is another discussion).

 

To make these choices possible G-d had to create both alternatives, good and bad. That is part of what Isaiah is saying.

[florduh]

It's not about supposed "free will" or choosing. The obvious fact is that everything comes in pairs because they must. There is no light unless you can compare it to dark. There is no up unless there is also a down. If you would call one thing good then it's only because you also know bad. If everything were evil you wouldn't know it unless you could contrast it with good.

 

There is no Jesus without Judas. In Christian mythology, Judas and Satan aren't given enough credit for their most necessary roles in the story.

[bornagainathiest]

The following was written by a rabbi.

~ Biblical Hermeneutics 

 

The answer isn't difficult if you get the translation right. The translation used in the question is skewed by some to fit with the image that G-d only creates good. That is not Isaiah's lesson. He is teaching that there is only one G-d and that G-d creates all things.

The question here makes that analysis difficult because it mistranslates a single, simple Hebrew word. Rather than "calamity" the translation should say "evil" as the Hebrew text uses the word "ra" (spelled resh ayin). The word "ra" means "evil" -- often evil that men choose to do. It is used in Deuteronomy 30:15, where it is written, "See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil [Hebrew: "ra"]."

Following that verse, the next four verses tell the people how to choose life and good by walking in G-d's ways, keeping His commandments, statutes and ordinances, and avoiding sin, especially idolatry.

The key part of that lecture is that man has choices to make between good [tov] and evil [ra], and he can make those choices because he has free will, and with the correct choice, i.e. good, he gets life, whereas choosing evil gets him death (whether in this world or in the afterlife is another discussion).

 

To make these choices possible G-d had to create both alternatives, good and bad. That is part of what Isaiah is saying.

 

The translation used in the question is skewed by some to fit with the image that G-d only creates good.   Which means that God creates both Good and Evil.

 

He is teaching that there is only one G-d and that G-d creates all things.  Which means that God creates both Good and Evil.

 

The word "ra" means "evil" -- often evil that men choose to do.  Which means that God creates the same kind of moral evil that men choose to do.

 

 It is used in Deuteronomy 30:15, where it is written, "See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil [Hebrew: "ra"]."  To offer this choice God must be the creator of both Good and Evil.

 

To make these choices possible G-d had to create both alternatives, good and bad.  Which means that God creates both Good and Evil.

.

.

.

Rabbi Toviah Singer agrees that God created both Good and Evil.

 

https://outreachjudaism.org/if-angels-dont-have-freewill-do-they-know-the-difference-between-good-and-evil/

.

.

.

So who is responsible for the evil that exists if not it's creator?

[bornagainathiest]

Also, how do you square the Good and Evil God of the OT with the Only Good God of the NT?

 

According to the Rabbis and to the Prophets, God is Light and Darkness.

 

Yet according to the Apostle John ...

 

1 John 1 : 5

 

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

.

.

.

 

 

 

[Guest Furball]

 

 

 

 

So who is responsible for the evil that exists if not it's creator?

 

Let's not forget who put the tree in the garden in the first place to tempt man. If god was as benign and loving of his creatures as christians claim he is, then why put the tree there in the first place? Christians say that god put the tree there to test adam's faith. But that doesn't make any sense. If god is the workman, then testing his work (adam/humans) would actually be testing himself to see if his workmanship would stand the test. It makes god look fallible in his creating. When a watchmaker tests a watch to see if it works correctly, he isn't testing the watch, but the work he put into making the watch. If the watch doesn't work right, it's not the watches fault, but the maker of the watch. So adam having "failed" the test isn't a sin of adam's, but actually a sin of god's. Hence god himself "missed the mark" and fell short of creating a perfect human. 

 

A quick study of jewish belief reveals that they did not believe in satan or some type of devil. They attributed evil to god, and god alone. 

 

God is the author of evil. 

[SkepticalDaniel]

 

 

 

 

So who is responsible for the evil that exists if not it's creator?

Let's not forget who put the tree in the garden in the first place to tempt man. If god was as benign and loving of his creatures as christians claim he is, then why put the tree there in the first place? Christians say that god put the tree there to test adam's faith. But that doesn't make any sense. If god is the workman, then testing his work (adam/humans) would actually be testing himself to see if his workmanship would stand the test. It makes god look fallible in his creating. When a watchmaker tests a watch to see if it works correctly, he isn't testing the watch, but the work he put into making the watch. If the watch doesn't work right, it's not the watches fault, but the maker of the watch. So adam having "failed" the test isn't a sin of adam's, but actually a sin of god's. Hence god himself "missed the mark" and fell short of creating a perfect human.

 

A quick study of jewish belief reveals that they did not believe in satan or some type of devil. They attributed evil to god, and god alone.

 

God is the author of evil.

Oh yes. In fact, the God sent an Evil Spirit to Saul and has also sent a lying spirit.

[Guest Furball]

 

 

 

 

 

So who is responsible for the evil that exists if not it's creator?

Let's not forget who put the tree in the garden in the first place to tempt man. If god was as benign and loving of his creatures as christians claim he is, then why put the tree there in the first place? Christians say that god put the tree there to test adam's faith. But that doesn't make any sense. If god is the workman, then testing his work (adam/humans) would actually be testing himself to see if his workmanship would stand the test. It makes god look fallible in his creating. When a watchmaker tests a watch to see if it works correctly, he isn't testing the watch, but the work he put into making the watch. If the watch doesn't work right, it's not the watches fault, but the maker of the watch. So adam having "failed" the test isn't a sin of adam's, but actually a sin of god's. Hence god himself "missed the mark" and fell short of creating a perfect human.

 

A quick study of jewish belief reveals that they did not believe in satan or some type of devil. They attributed evil to god, and god alone.

 

God is the author of evil.

Oh yes. In fact, the God sent an Evil Spirit to Saul and has also sent a lying spirit.

 

Ever wonder why god kicked satan out of heaven only to drop his ass right in the garden of eden? Talk about inconvenience. 

 

Or god is just an evil sick asshole. 

 

But just remember, god is love and god loves you so just ignore the 99.99% of the bible that contradicts those statements. 

[midniterider]

The following was written by a rabbi.

~ Biblical Hermeneutics 

 

The answer isn't difficult if you get the translation right. The translation used in the question is skewed by some to fit with the image that G-d only creates good. That is not Isaiah's lesson. He is teaching that there is only one G-d and that G-d creates all things.

The question here makes that analysis difficult because it mistranslates a single, simple Hebrew word. Rather than "calamity" the translation should say "evil" as the Hebrew text uses the word "ra" (spelled resh ayin). The word "ra" means "evil" -- often evil that men choose to do. It is used in Deuteronomy 30:15, where it is written, "See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil [Hebrew: "ra"]."

Following that verse, the next four verses tell the people how to choose life and good by walking in G-d's ways, keeping His commandments, statutes and ordinances, and avoiding sin, especially idolatry.

The key part of that lecture is that man has choices to make between good [tov] and evil [ra], and he can make those choices because he has free will, and with the correct choice, i.e. good, he gets life, whereas choosing evil gets him death (whether in this world or in the afterlife is another discussion).

 

To make these choices possible G-d had to create both alternatives, good and bad. That is part of what Isaiah is saying.

 

While a section of scripture may have been written to illustrate a particular concept, other concepts can be derived from it as well. A Christian will point us in a pro-Jesus direction using scripture.  But an ex-believer may use the same scripture to illuminate us to another idea in an anti-Jesus direction.

 

Ex-believers tend to get stuck at Isaiah 45:7 where it is explained that God creates evil, which tends to contradict all the stuff we hear in church. Why should we move past this point? Why should we assume God exists to even create evil? That is the first obstacle.

 

Christianity is a structured way of always thinking positively about God.  So, scripture that puts God in a bad light is ignored and the Christian redirects his attention (or spins it) to something that makes God look great.

 

Ex-believers don't have this fearful 'God's watching you' constraint on their thinking. They can and will analyze scripture without the need to make God look good at all costs.

 

I think a good test of personal freedom is one's ability to criticize a belief system. Can a Christian criticize Jesus? Can you entertain the idea of criticizing Jesus?

[ironhorse]

“….There is no light unless you can compare it to dark. There is no up unless there is also a down. If you would call one thing good then it's only because you also know bad. If everything were evil you wouldn't know it unless you could contrast it with good.
There is no Jesus without Judas. In Christian mythology, Judas and Satan aren't given enough credit for their most necessary roles in the story.”

 

The above is part of florduh’s comments. What he is saying here, I think, is true. You can only have it both ways. It is what make us human.

 

Every time this topic comes up there are accusations that evil is all God’s fault. If only God would feed those poor children or stop all the suffering everything would be just fine or if God had not allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted and on and on….and there is always the “sure God did not actually do that particular evil, but he knew we would so do it, so is has the final responsibility not us.”

 

God created us. We have the ability to make choices. Do you want God to perform a lobotomy on us to take away this ability or to intervene in our lives every time we make a wrong choice?

 

If a god had made us that robotic or intervened daily in my life to stop me from making the wrong choice, I would hate and despise such a god

 

Since I posted a rabbi’s comments, I thought I would post appropriate  lyrics from a Jewish songwriter.

 

 

Father of night, Father of day
Father, who taketh the darkness away
Father, who teacheth the bird to fly
Builder of rainbows up in the sky
Father of loneliness and pain
Father of love and Father of rain

Father of day, Father of night
Father of black, Father of white
Father, who build the mountain so high
Who shapeth the cloud up in the sky
Father of time, Father of dreams
Father, who turneth the rivers and streams

Father of grain, Father of wheat
Father of cold and Father of heat
Father of air and Father of trees
Who dwells in our hearts and our memories
Father of minutes, Father of days
Father of whom we most solemnly praise

 

~ Bob Dylan

[bornagainathiest]

“….There is no light unless you can compare it to dark. There is no up unless there is also a down. If you would call one thing good then it's only because you also know bad. If everything were evil you wouldn't know it unless you could contrast it with good.

There is no Jesus without Judas. In Christian mythology, Judas and Satan aren't given enough credit for their most necessary roles in the story.”

 

The above is part of florduh’s comments. What he is saying here, I think, is true. You can only have it both ways. It is what make us human.

 

Every time this topic comes up there are accusations that evil is all God’s fault. If only God would feed those poor children or stop all the suffering everything would be just fine or if God had not allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted and on and on….and there is always the “sure God did not actually do that particular evil, but he knew we would so do it, so is has the final responsibility not us.”

 

God created us. We have the ability to make choices. Do you want God to perform a lobotomy on us to take away this ability or to intervene in our lives every time we make a wrong choice?

 

If a god had made us that robotic or intervened daily in my life to stop me from making the wrong choice, I would hate and despise such a god

 

Since I posted a rabbi’s comments, I thought I would post appropriate  lyrics from a Jewish songwriter.

 

 

Father of night, Father of day

Father, who taketh the darkness away

Father, who teacheth the bird to fly

Builder of rainbows up in the sky

Father of loneliness and pain

Father of love and Father of rain

 

Father of day, Father of night

Father of black, Father of white

Father, who build the mountain so high

Who shapeth the cloud up in the sky

Father of time, Father of dreams

Father, who turneth the rivers and streams

 

Father of grain, Father of wheat

Father of cold and Father of heat

Father of air and Father of trees

Who dwells in our hearts and our memories

Father of minutes, Father of days

Father of whom we most solemnly praise

 

~ Bob Dylan

 

So can we have an official admission from you Ironhorse?

 

That according to the Bible, God and God alone is the source and creator of evil?

 

Or will you just hand us another song?

[duderonomy]

“….There is no light unless you can compare it to dark. There is no up unless there is also a down. If you would call one thing good then it's only because you also know bad. If everything were evil you wouldn't know it unless you could contrast it with good.

There is no Jesus without Judas. In Christian mythology, Judas and Satan aren't given enough credit for their most necessary roles in the story.”

 

The above is part of florduh’s comments. What he is saying here, I think, is true. You can only have it both ways. It is what make us human.

 

Every time this topic comes up there are accusations that evil is all God’s fault. If only God would feed those poor children or stop all the suffering everything would be just fine or if God had not allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted and on and on….and there is always the “sure God did not actually do that particular evil, but he knew we would so do it, so is has the final responsibility not us.”

 

God created us. We have the ability to make choices. Do you want God to perform a lobotomy on us to take away this ability or to intervene in our lives every time we make a wrong choice?

 

If a god had made us that robotic or intervened daily in my life to stop me from making the wrong choice, I would hate and despise such a god

 

 

Ironhorse, the Dylan lyrics were just a joke, right? I mean you were doing so good for a couple of days there.

 

The fact is Biblegod created evil. We were born into a world where evil already existed. The evil is all his fault. In your theology, you are blaming the victim, and not giving Biblegod the praise and adoration he is due for creating suffering and starvation, anger and jealousy (two of his favorites!), sin and death...Biblegod created them all, or the Bible lies when it said all things were created by him and there isn't anything except what he created.

 

You have to admit your god is responsible for the evil...all of it, or admit that he isn't the only creator with that kind of power. You've already said you think your god has limitations. Is it possible that there is something in existence right now that he didn't create?

Please don't say that your god allows these things to happen.  He would only be allowing what he created.

 

Please answer me and BAA on this.  Did Biblegod create evil, or is there another creator?

[bornagainathiest]

 

“….There is no light unless you can compare it to dark. There is no up unless there is also a down. If you would call one thing good then it's only because you also know bad. If everything were evil you wouldn't know it unless you could contrast it with good.

There is no Jesus without Judas. In Christian mythology, Judas and Satan aren't given enough credit for their most necessary roles in the story.”

 

The above is part of florduh’s comments. What he is saying here, I think, is true. You can only have it both ways. It is what make us human.

 

Every time this topic comes up there are accusations that evil is all God’s fault. If only God would feed those poor children or stop all the suffering everything would be just fine or if God had not allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted and on and on….and there is always the “sure God did not actually do that particular evil, but he knew we would so do it, so is has the final responsibility not us.”

 

God created us. We have the ability to make choices. Do you want God to perform a lobotomy on us to take away this ability or to intervene in our lives every time we make a wrong choice?

 

If a god had made us that robotic or intervened daily in my life to stop me from making the wrong choice, I would hate and despise such a god

 

 

Ironhorse, the Dylan lyrics were just a joke, right? I mean you were doing so good for a couple of days there.

 

The fact is Biblegod created evil. We were born into a world where evil already existed. The evil is all his fault. In your theology, you are blaming the victim, and not giving Biblegod the praise and adoration he is due for creating suffering and starvation, anger and jealousy (two of his favorites!), sin and death...Biblegod created them all, or the Bible lies when it said all things were created by him and there isn't anything except what he created.

 

You have to admit your god is responsible for the evil...all of it, or admit that he isn't the only creator with that kind of power. You've already said you think your god has limitations. Is it possible that there is something in existence right now that he didn't create?

Please don't say that your god allows these things to happen.  He would only be allowing what he created.

 

Please answer me and BAA on this.  Did Biblegod create evil, or is there another creator?

 

 

Yes please ironhorse.

 

Is the God of the Bible the sole creator and author of all moral evil?

 

Please answer...

 

...without lyrics or music videos.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[sdelsolray]

Cherrypickers Unite!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 Christians say that god put the tree there to test adam's faith. But that doesn't make any sense.

 

Faith is, essentially, believing without seeing.  Adam didn't have faith.  He didn't need to.  According to genesis, god walked with Adam in the cool of the day.  This means that Adam "saw"; thus what he had was more akin to "knowledge than "faith".  For god to test "faith" where none was present or needed, would have been an exercise in futility (much like everything else "god" does in the bible).

[TheRedneckProfessor]

We have the ability to make choices. Do you want God to perform a lobotomy on us to take away this ability or to intervene in our lives every time we make a wrong choice?

 

No.  I want "god" to stop blaming us when we make choices that conflict with his "will".  I want "god" to take responsibility for "hell" instead of pushing that responsibility off onto us.  I want "god" to start recognizing his "children" as people who deserve to have something to eat, a decent chance at life, peace...  If he is the creator, then it's time he looked in on his creation.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 Christians say that god put the tree there to test adam's faith. But that doesn't make any sense.

 

Faith is, essentially, believing without seeing.  Adam didn't have faith.  He didn't need to.  According to genesis, god walked with Adam in the cool of the day.  This means that Adam "saw"; thus what he had was more akin to "knowledge than "faith".  For god to test "faith" where none was present or needed, would have been an exercise in futility (much like everything else "god" does in the bible).

 

 

Another thing Adam didn't have was the ability to recognize moral good and moral evil.

 

In Genesis 1 God saw that the various stages of his creation were morally good and morally very good.

 

In Genesis 2 God also saw that it was not good for Adam to be alone.

 

Yet Adam and Eve could only recognize that the fruits of the trees God gave to them were good for food and pleasing to the eye.

.

.

.

So how was their ability to recognize edible fruit a fair and just basis for God testing them?

 

And punishing and cursing them?

 

And punishing and cursing every other human being as well?

.

.

.

[♦ ficino ♦]

You have to admit your god is responsible for the evil...all of it, or admit that he isn't the only creator with that kind of power. You've already said you think your god has limitations. Is it possible that there is something in existence right now that he didn't create?

Please don't say that your god allows these things to happen.  He would only be allowing what he created.

 

Please answer me and BAA on this.  Did Biblegod create evil, or is there another creator?

Add me. IH, it seems as though the god you believe in is a finite, struggling god. Please confirm if that is the case.

 

Or on the other hand, please confirm that your god is the first cause of every event.

 

If you want some third option, you'll have to argue for it. Vague assertions and expressions of feeling don't cut it.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

If I were ever inclined to write an autobiography, I'd personally oversee its translation into other languages to make sure it kept the meaning I was trying to convey.

 

Why couldn't an all-knowing and all-powerful god do the same?

[Guest Furball]

 

 Christians say that god put the tree there to test adam's faith. But that doesn't make any sense.

 

Faith is, essentially, believing without seeing.  Adam didn't have faith.  He didn't need to.  According to genesis, god walked with Adam in the cool of the day.  This means that Adam "saw"; thus what he had was more akin to "knowledge than "faith".  For god to test "faith" where none was present or needed, would have been an exercise in futility (much like everything else "god" does in the bible).

Adam had to exercise faith in what god said (not about him existing, i.e. walking in the cool of the day) about eating from the tree and it's repercussions for doing so. That he could not tell if it was true or or not, so he had to exercise faith that what god told him to be true. You're right, faith wasn't needed to see that god existed, but you're wrong that he didn't need faith to believe god's promise of what would happen if he ate from it. You stated that "faith is, essentially, believing without seeing." Adam had to have faith in what god said about eating from the tree without having seeing first hand what would actually happen if he did. He had to take god's warning on faith.