How To Make A Christian Absolutely Livid

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

Joe and Bob both have at least a working knowledge of carnival rides, plus the opportunity to observe the particular ride in question. Adam and Eve had nothing concerning evil or death.

 

That's not the same as "faith". That's more like "obedience or else".

I disagree.....someone provides for you and you will end up trusting them. Get over yourself.

 

Didn't we just establish a week or so ago that god doesn't actually provide for anybody?  

 

And isn't the point here that god did NOT provide for Adam and Eve, in that the vital information they needed to choose between good and evil, life and death, was completely omitted from god's narrative?

 

I don't see that it matters. There are many times where a parent has a child experience something they have no information nor experience of based on the faith that the child has in the parent that has developed from other totally separate experiences....provision being one.

 

It does matter, End3.  You speak of trust, while conveniently ignoring the fact that god was withholding information from Adam and Eve.  There can be NO trust with someone who proves themselves to be untrustworthy--someone who lies, hides the truth, withholds information.  If a friend, family member, or loved one lied to you, would you continue to trust that person?

 

So then, why do you continue to trust god?

 

Your view is in retrospect. You say I'm ignoring.....but you are ignoring as well. Like you said, they did not know God was withholding anything. How may we assume their trust was broken? But, BUT, I'm saying trust was developing through other actions.

 

 

End,

 

You're overlooking at least three significant factors when you make a one-to-one comparison between how we humans behave now and how Adam and Eve might have behaved in Eden.  When you say that trust would have developed, you're not taking into account that they were not human in a number of ways.

 

They were genetically and epigentically different from all other humans.

Neither of them inherited any genetic material from a human father or mother.  So, whatever behaviors we attribute to genetic and epigenetic factors in humans today cannot be attributed to them.  They had no traits or mutations to inherit and no instincts from previous generations to influence them.  They were one-of-a-kind genetic 'blank slates' that have no modern day counterparts that we can look to for reference or guidance.  They were a genetic mystery.

 

They were developmentally different from all other humans.

They weren't the result of the fusion of a sperm and egg, growing in a mother's womb.  They weren't born.  They weren't suckled.  They experienced no childhood, no adolescence and no puberty.  Nor did they follow the normal and natural paths of human interaction when growing up that we all take for granted.  They achieved adulthood by being formed directly from the dirt or by being harvested from another's genetic material and being 'cloned'.  There is no example like them that we can compare them with to say that they would have acted or reacted in this or that particular way.  They are developmental enigmas about which we can say... nothing.

 

They were socially different from all other humans.

Having no other people to interact and socialize with except each other and God, they would have no experience of what we would call normal family and social life.  So they can't really be held up as a shining example of family values.  If anything, by all normal and natural standards of human life they were desperately impoverished and socially deprived.  Perhaps the nearest example we have of humans raised in such asocial environment is that of feral children.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

 

So, you're just really speculating when you claim that they would learn and develop trust.

 

You just don't know.

[SageHealer]

I vote for not engaging with this troll.

[♦ ficino ♦]

End3 has been around here a long time. We've hung in there with him in stuff that's happened ... he's not a troll.

 

I think, End, if you're reading this, that you can step out farther from the box you're in. But troll, no.

 

Rock on, dudes.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

“….There is no light unless you can compare it to dark. There is no up unless there is also a down. If you would call one thing good then it's only because you also know bad. If everything were evil you wouldn't know it unless you could contrast it with good.

There is no Jesus without Judas. In Christian mythology, Judas and Satan aren't given enough credit for their most necessary roles in the story.”

 

The above is part of florduh’s comments. What he is saying here, I think, is true. You can only have it both ways. It is what make us human.

 

Every time this topic comes up there are accusations that evil is all God’s fault. If only God would feed those poor children or stop all the suffering everything would be just fine or if God had not allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted and on and on….and there is always the “sure God did not actually do that particular evil, but he knew we would so do it, so is has the final responsibility not us.”

 

God created us. We have the ability to make choices. Do you want God to perform a lobotomy on us to take away this ability or to intervene in our lives every time we make a wrong choice?

 

If a god had made us that robotic or intervened daily in my life to stop me from making the wrong choice, I would hate and despise such a god

 

 

Ironhorse, the Dylan lyrics were just a joke, right? I mean you were doing so good for a couple of days there.

 

The fact is Biblegod created evil. We were born into a world where evil already existed. The evil is all his fault. In your theology, you are blaming the victim, and not giving Biblegod the praise and adoration he is due for creating suffering and starvation, anger and jealousy (two of his favorites!), sin and death...Biblegod created them all, or the Bible lies when it said all things were created by him and there isn't anything except what he created.

 

You have to admit your god is responsible for the evil...all of it, or admit that he isn't the only creator with that kind of power. You've already said you think your god has limitations. Is it possible that there is something in existence right now that he didn't create?

Please don't say that your god allows these things to happen.  He would only be allowing what he created.

 

Please answer me and BAA on this.  Did Biblegod create evil, or is there another creator?

 

 

Yes please ironhorse.

 

Is the God of the Bible the sole creator and author of all moral evil?

 

Please answer...

 

...without lyrics or music videos.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

(Bump!)

[ironhorse]

 

“….There is no light unless you can compare it to dark. There is no up unless there is also a down. If you would call one thing good then it's only because you also know bad. If everything were evil you wouldn't know it unless you could contrast it with good.

There is no Jesus without Judas. In Christian mythology, Judas and Satan aren't given enough credit for their most necessary roles in the story.”

 

The above is part of florduh’s comments. What he is saying here, I think, is true. You can only have it both ways. It is what make us human.

 

Every time this topic comes up there are accusations that evil is all God’s fault. If only God would feed those poor children or stop all the suffering everything would be just fine or if God had not allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted and on and on….and there is always the “sure God did not actually do that particular evil, but he knew we would so do it, so is has the final responsibility not us.”

 

God created us. We have the ability to make choices. Do you want God to perform a lobotomy on us to take away this ability or to intervene in our lives every time we make a wrong choice?

 

If a god had made us that robotic or intervened daily in my life to stop me from making the wrong choice, I would hate and despise such a god

 

 

Ironhorse, the Dylan lyrics were just a joke, right? I mean you were doing so good for a couple of days there.

 

The fact is Biblegod created evil. We were born into a world where evil already existed. The evil is all his fault. In your theology, you are blaming the victim, and not giving Biblegod the praise and adoration he is due for creating suffering and starvation, anger and jealousy (two of his favorites!), sin and death...Biblegod created them all, or the Bible lies when it said all things were created by him and there isn't anything except what he created.

 

You have to admit your god is responsible for the evil...all of it, or admit that he isn't the only creator with that kind of power. You've already said you think your god has limitations. Is it possible that there is something in existence right now that he didn't create?

Please don't say that your god allows these things to happen.  He would only be allowing what he created.

 

Please answer me and BAA on this.  Did Biblegod create evil, or is there another creator?

 

 

 

 

"The key part of that lecture is that man has choices to make between good [tov] and evil [ra], and he can make those choices because he has free will, and with the correct choice, i.e. good, he gets life, whereas choosing evil gets him death (whether in this world or in the afterlife is another discussion).

 

To make these choices possible G-d had to create both alternatives, good and bad. That is part of what Isaiah is saying."

 

 

Did God create evil?

 

No, but God allows evil. This is the point the rabbi makes in the text above. 

 

If interested in a more detailed examination:

 

"The classic problem of evil comes in the form of a Trilemma, a difficult question with three possible answers. Is God unable to end evil and suffering? Then He is not omnipotent. Is God able to end evil and suffering, but unwilling? Then He is not good. Is God both able and willing to end evil and suffering? Then where does evil come from? These questions try to show that the existence of a good, omnipotent God is incompatible with the existence of evil and suffering."

 

http://www.shenvi.org/Essays/GodAndEvil.htm

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

“….There is no light unless you can compare it to dark. There is no up unless there is also a down. If you would call one thing good then it's only because you also know bad. If everything were evil you wouldn't know it unless you could contrast it with good.

There is no Jesus without Judas. In Christian mythology, Judas and Satan aren't given enough credit for their most necessary roles in the story.”

 

The above is part of florduh’s comments. What he is saying here, I think, is true. You can only have it both ways. It is what make us human.

 

Every time this topic comes up there are accusations that evil is all God’s fault. If only God would feed those poor children or stop all the suffering everything would be just fine or if God had not allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted and on and on….and there is always the “sure God did not actually do that particular evil, but he knew we would so do it, so is has the final responsibility not us.”

 

God created us. We have the ability to make choices. Do you want God to perform a lobotomy on us to take away this ability or to intervene in our lives every time we make a wrong choice?

 

If a god had made us that robotic or intervened daily in my life to stop me from making the wrong choice, I would hate and despise such a god

 

 

Ironhorse, the Dylan lyrics were just a joke, right? I mean you were doing so good for a couple of days there.

 

The fact is Biblegod created evil. We were born into a world where evil already existed. The evil is all his fault. In your theology, you are blaming the victim, and not giving Biblegod the praise and adoration he is due for creating suffering and starvation, anger and jealousy (two of his favorites!), sin and death...Biblegod created them all, or the Bible lies when it said all things were created by him and there isn't anything except what he created.

 

You have to admit your god is responsible for the evil...all of it, or admit that he isn't the only creator with that kind of power. You've already said you think your god has limitations. Is it possible that there is something in existence right now that he didn't create?

Please don't say that your god allows these things to happen.  He would only be allowing what he created.

 

Please answer me and BAA on this.  Did Biblegod create evil, or is there another creator?

 

 

 

 

"The key part of that lecture is that man has choices to make between good [tov] and evil [ra], and he can make those choices because he has free will, and with the correct choice, i.e. good, he gets life, whereas choosing evil gets him death (whether in this world or in the afterlife is another discussion).

 

To make these choices possible G-d had to create both alternatives, good and bad. That is part of what Isaiah is saying."

 

 

Did God create evil?

 

God created both, good and evil.

 

No, but God allows evil. This is the point the rabbi makes in the text above. 

 

Yes, therefore God created both good and evil.  This is the point the rabbi makes in the text above.

 

If interested in a more detailed examination:

 

"The classic problem of evil comes in the form of a Trilemma, a difficult question with three possible answers. Is God unable to end evil and suffering? Then He is not omnipotent. Is God able to end evil and suffering, but unwilling? Then He is not good. Is God both able and willing to end evil and suffering? Then where does evil come from? These questions try to show that the existence of a good, omnipotent God is incompatible with the existence of evil and suffering."

 

http://www.shenvi.org/Essays/GodAndEvil.htm

 

[florduh]

Did God create evil?

 

No, but God allows evil.

 

Of course a thinking person sees no distinction here. "No, I didn't start the fire, but I refuse to throw water on it. Let it take its natural course."

 

I'm always amused how people imagine some all powerful and all good deity who is by definition the literal creator of everything that exists, yet this deity is excused from responsibility for the creations we don't like. Our world insists on opposites to define each other; if a thing has a front it automatically must have a back. If we are to have a "good" we by necessity also have an "evil." No gods required for this setup, it's how we perceive everything. This setup doesn't allow for a creator to create only that which we label as "good" or "evil." A creator of the universe must necessarily create everything that is, and what we call evil is one of those things.

[duderonomy]

Duderonomy:  "...Is it possible that there is something in existence right now that he didn't create?

Please don't say that your god allows these things to happen.  He would only be allowing what he created."  

..."Did Biblegod create evil, or is there another creator?"

 

 

Ironhorse:  "Did God create evil?  No, but God allows evil."

 

 

Please tell us Ironhorse, if Biblegod didn't create evil (as the Bible says he did), then who is this other creator?

[rjn]

I have a feeling that IH adheres to the idea of Evil as "the absence of Good". It's not something that exists in and of itself.

 

Of course, with that logic you could simply say that pandemics are just the absence of good health.

[florduh]

Please tell us Ironhorse, if Biblegod didn't create evil (as the Bible says he did), then who is this other creator?

 

Exactly. Within the context of mythological systems of belief born of the Bible, this is the only pertinent question. Within this Biblical context context there is no answer.

[rjn]

 

Please tell us Ironhorse, if Biblegod didn't create evil (as the Bible says he did), then who is this other creator?

 

Exactly. Within the context of mythological systems of belief born of the Bible, this is the only pertinent question. Within this Biblical context context there is no answer.

 

The Gnostics solved this by adopting/inventing the concept of the Demiurge. It makes a lot more sense than the alternative.

[florduh]

 

 

Please tell us Ironhorse, if Biblegod didn't create evil (as the Bible says he did), then who is this other creator?

Exactly. Within the context of mythological systems of belief born of the Bible, this is the only pertinent question. Within this Biblical context context there is no answer.

 

The Gnostics solved this by adopting/inventing the concept of the Demiurge. It makes a lot more sense than the alternative.

 

Exactly, one must go outside of all we know about God from the Bible and make up an alternate scenario. IOW, the Bible picture of God must be wrong, if we take into account observable reality, logic and common sense. Leave it to the Gnostics to realize a religion is false, then invent workarounds to retain the religion, at least in name.

[bornagainathiest]

The following was written by a rabbi.

~ Biblical Hermeneutics 

 

The answer isn't difficult if you get the translation right. The translation used in the question is skewed by some to fit with the image that G-d only creates good. That is not Isaiah's lesson. He is teaching that there is only one G-d and that G-d creates all things.

The question here makes that analysis difficult because it mistranslates a single, simple Hebrew word. Rather than "calamity" the translation should say "evil" as the Hebrew text uses the word "ra" (spelled resh ayin). The word "ra" means "evil" -- often evil that men choose to do. It is used in Deuteronomy 30:15, where it is written, "See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil [Hebrew: "ra"]."

Following that verse, the next four verses tell the people how to choose life and good by walking in G-d's ways, keeping His commandments, statutes and ordinances, and avoiding sin, especially idolatry.

The key part of that lecture is that man has choices to make between good [tov] and evil [ra], and he can make those choices because he has free will, and with the correct choice, i.e. good, he gets life, whereas choosing evil gets him death (whether in this world or in the afterlife is another discussion).

 

To make these choices possible G-d had to create both alternatives, good and bad. That is part of what Isaiah is saying.

 

Eight days ago Ironhorse posted a commentary by a rabbi which clearly says that God is the creator of BOTH good and evil.

But today he posts the same quote, putting his own spin on it, claiming that God did not create evil - contradicting the very words of the rabbi he quoted.

 

"The key part of that lecture is that man has choices to make between good [tov] and evil [ra], and he can make those choices because he has free will, and with the correct choice, i.e. good, he gets life, whereas choosing evil gets him death (whether in this world or in the afterlife is another discussion).

To make these choices possible G-d had to create both alternatives, good and bad. That is part of what Isaiah is saying."

 

Did God create evil?

 

No, but God allows evil. This is the point the rabbi makes in the text above. 

.

.

.

No, Ironhorse!   

That is not the point that the rabbi makes.  

The point he makes is that to offer a choice, God creates BOTH good and evil.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

Did God create evil?

 

No, but God allows evil. This is the point the rabbi makes in the text above. 

 

If interested in a more detailed examination:

 

"The classic problem of evil comes in the form of a Trilemma, a difficult question with three possible answers. Is God unable to end evil and suffering? Then He is not omnipotent. Is God able to end evil and suffering, but unwilling? Then He is not good. Is God both able and willing to end evil and suffering? Then where does evil come from? These questions try to show that the existence of a good, omnipotent God is incompatible with the existence of evil and suffering."

 

http://www.shenvi.org/Essays/GodAndEvil.htm

 

 

From the link provided by Ironhorse.

 

Response 2: God will one day bring evil to an end and will mete out perfect and eternal justice.

Second, the Bible affirms that God will end all evil and suffering one day and will right every wrong. This point is absolutely central to the plot line of the Bible. The Israelite prophets had no illusions about the dismal state of justice in the world. Through them, God constantly reminded his people that the world was fallen and that a day was coming in which he would end evil and suffering and usher in a perfect and eternal Kingdom. Both the Old and New Testaments look forward to this Day of Judgment as the ultimate and final act which will vindicate God's justice in the face of evil and suffering. To see how God's final judgment serves as an answer to the problem of evil, we need only consider examples of evil and suffering in our own life.

 

The above is fatally flawed and totally mistaken about the ultimate fate of evil.

 

​On Judgement Day evil-doers will be destroyed by God.  Satan, the fallen angels and all unsaved humans will be incinerated and snuffed out of existence.   That much is not in dispute.  But the above is quite wrong to say that God will end all evil.  He cannot do so because He is the ultimate source and creator of all evil.  To end all evil He would have to cause Himself to cease to exist.  The fundamental error the above article makes is to treat evil as something separate from God that can be permanently destroyed by Him.  This is not and cannot be so.  Such a conclusion totally contradicts scripture and is totally at odds with the eternal and unchanging nature of God.

 

God is changeless and unchanging, the same today, tomorrow and yesterday.

He exists outside of time and is unchanged by events that occur within the count of time.  Therefore, since He is the unchanging and eternal creator of BOTH good and evil, no event in heaven or earth can change that.  This means that He cannot destroy all evil unless He destroys Himself.  Yes, he can destroy everything evil that He has created - but that is quite a different thing from claiming that God will permanently destroy ALL evil.  Good and evil are as eternal as He his because they are His very nature.  

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[ironhorse]

"On Judgement Day evil-doers will be destroyed by God.  Satan, the fallen angels and all unsaved humans will be incinerated and snuffed out of existence.   That much is not in dispute.  But the above is quite wrong to say that God will end all evil.  He cannot do so because He is the ultimate source and creator of all evil.  To end all evil He would have to cause Himself to cease to exist.  The fundamental error the above article makes is to treat evil as something separate from God that can be permanently destroyed by Him.  This is not and cannot be so.  Such a conclusion totally contradicts scripture and is totally at odds with the eternal and unchanging nature of God."

 

~ BAA

 

 

You express your viewpoint well, I just disagree.
To say that God is the creator of all evil is something I can never agree on.

 

I will agree that parts of this subject are puzzling and I doubt we can come up with some simple answer. Thinkers have been trying to do that for thousands of years. The book of Job is a fascinating narrative of Job and his friends struggling with this issue of evil and suffering in the world.

 

I will say the following:

Evil is neither substance, being, spirit, nor matter. So it is technically not proper to think of evil (sin) as something that was created.
It is an abstract noun like bravery or courage. We can see acts of bravery courage as we can see and feel the consequences of evil choices (sin) we make and all around us in the world.

 

We are sinners. We lack moral perfection. We miss the target of perfection. Therefore we bear full responsibility for their sin, not God.

 

 

There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
~ 1 Samuel 2:2

 

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
~ Revelation 4:8

[bornagainathiest]

"On Judgement Day evil-doers will be destroyed by God.  Satan, the fallen angels and all unsaved humans will be incinerated and snuffed out of existence.   That much is not in dispute.  But the above is quite wrong to say that God will end all evil.  He cannot do so because He is the ultimate source and creator of all evil.  To end all evil He would have to cause Himself to cease to exist.  The fundamental error the above article makes is to treat evil as something separate from God that can be permanently destroyed by Him.  This is not and cannot be so.  Such a conclusion totally contradicts scripture and is totally at odds with the eternal and unchanging nature of God."

 

~ BAA

 

 

You express your viewpoint well, I just disagree.

To say that God is the creator of all evil is something I can never agree on.

 

Then you set yourself up in opposition to God's word, Ironhorse.

 

I will agree that parts of this subject are puzzling and I doubt we can come up with some simple answer. Thinkers have been trying to do that for thousands of years. The book of Job is a fascinating narrative of Job and his friends struggling with this issue of evil and suffering in the world.

 

A simple answer?   How about a logically consistent answer that is in agreement with scripture?  Please say if this would be acceptable to you.

 

I will say the following:

Evil is neither substance, being, spirit, nor matter. So it is technically not proper to think of evil (sin) as something that was created.

 

God is spirit and yet un-created and eternal, Ironhorse.   So you need to revise the above and remove the word spirit from it.

 

Which means that evil is not substance, being nor matter - but it can be the true nature of an un-created, eternal spirit.  Such as God.

 

It is an abstract noun like bravery or courage. We can see acts of bravery courage as we can see and feel the consequences of evil choices (sin) we make and all around us in the world.

 

God is love, which is an abstract noun.  If God's true nature is defined by abstract nouns, then by your definition of evil, it qualifies just as much as courage or love.

 

We are sinners. We lack moral perfection. We miss the target of perfection. Therefore we bear full responsibility for their sin, not God.

 

 

There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

~ 1 Samuel 2:2

 

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

~ Revelation 4:8

[Ravenstar]

God says himself that he is the author of evil... to deny this is to deny your own scriptures... without which there would be no knowledge of this god, hence you are NOT a believer. Twist it any way you wish... the truth of it stands... you cherry pick and spin it to fit YOUR inner desire for a god that reflects you, not what the scriptures say - in clear language. 

[Burny]

 

God created us. We have the ability to make choices. Do you want God to perform a lobotomy on us to take away this ability or to intervene in our lives every time we make a wrong choice?

 

If a god had made us that robotic or intervened daily in my life to stop me from making the wrong choice, I would hate and despise such a god

 

 

I am so tired of this reasoning from xtians! It's so intellectually lazy! If humans have to be able to chose sin, death, suffering and their own destruction in order to be truly free, than what the heck is gonna happen in Heaven? You are openly admitting that you will hate and despise God when you go to heaven - since every xtian thinks life will be "perfect and without sin" there!

 

Why the fuck couldn't humans' free choice test be between chocolate and vanilla ice cream? Why did it have to be between life and death? Only a psychopath would make that the "free choice".

[midniterider]

We are sinners. We lack moral perfection. We miss the target of perfection. Therefore we bear full responsibility for their sin, not God.

 

 

Sin is a false problem. Jesus is a false solution..