Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 19, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted October 19, 2016 Umm... sorry again End, but there's still a problem. Autonomous means... having free will. But you use an i.e. to explain that autonomous means we don't have free will. If humans have free will, that makes us... autonomous. If humans don't have free will, that makes us... automatons. So you're asking the Prof to make a case for us having free will (being autonomous) or having no free will (being automatons) ...? Prof has made a reasonable case for predestination, but not in the face of free will. I had proposed scale was the issue, but he seemingly wants to hammer on the predestined notion. I am asking now, for him to explain how he sees that we don't have free will.....because it appears that we do on a certain level. If you wish to layer free will onto the surface of my case for predestination, you should start by demonstrating, from scripture, that we do in fact have free will. Then answer the logical question that arises: If I have free will, can I do something which god doesn't already know I'll do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 What I was asking Prof, is what are your thoughts on free will. It appears to me that I have free will, that if I am predestined, I don't know it other than a faint spiritual sense. Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 21, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted October 21, 2016 There is no possible way for you to have free will if god is omniscient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.B. Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 The free-will thing is kind of funny when you realize that in Genesis the god doesn't know where Adam is, and has to ask him if he ate of the tree, etc. Then you get to the proto-Christard, proto-Catholic New Testicle and you see all this talk about predestination and works leading to salvation, etc. The anti-Semitic assholes who wrote the NT didn't give enough of a shit about the Jewish bible to carry forward most of its mythology. They just used a thin veneer of "fulfilled prophecy" to market their Jesus story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 What I was asking Prof, is what are your thoughts on free will. It appears to me that I have free will, that if I am predestined, I don't know it other than a faint spiritual sense. Thx. While the question is not directed at me, I'd like to have a go at answering it: Free will makes little sense in a Christian view point. If God knows all, than how can we have free will. If God knew what you were going to eat for breakfast 800 years before you were born, how have you got free will. Some Christians try and get around this by claiming that God only has "middle" knowledge, in short He doesn't know for certain what you will do or not do, but knows all the outcomes. This seems like a bit of a cop out to me and a rejection of God being ALL knowing. Predestined makes matters worse however than freewill. If everything is predestined, then we are merely actors on the stage, playing out a part chosen for us. If God has predestined someone for Heaven, does it matter if they lie and cheat.....I would say not. Conversely if God has reserved a seat downstairs, will it matter if they spend their life on Earth a committed Christian, again I would say it will not. Predestined is predestined, God decided 6000 years before you were born, where you were going to be after you die. Some Christians do subscribe to this view, but it makes a mockery of Gods love, justice and mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 What I was asking Prof, is what are your thoughts on free will. It appears to me that I have free will, that if I am predestined, I don't know it other than a faint spiritual sense. Thx.While the question is not directed at me, I'd like to have a go at answering it: Free will makes little sense in a Christian view point. If God knows all, than how can we have free will. If God knew what you were going to eat for breakfast 800 years before you were born, how have you got free will. Some Christians try and get around this by claiming that God only has "middle" knowledge, in short He doesn't know for certain what you will do or not do, but knows all the outcomes. This seems like a bit of a cop out to me and a rejection of God being ALL knowing. Predestined makes matters worse however than freewill. If everything is predestined, then we are merely actors on the stage, playing out a part chosen for us. If God has predestined someone for Heaven, does it matter if they lie and cheat.....I would say not. Conversely if God has reserved a seat downstairs, will it matter if they spend their life on Earth a committed Christian, again I would say it will not. Predestined is predestined, God decided 6000 years before you were born, where you were going to be after you die. Some Christians do subscribe to this view, but it makes a mockery of Gods love, justice and mercy. One, I hate not understanding the free will vs. predestination answer....frustrating having to ponder it occasionally. So reading your response, what came to mind was if predestination was only that, then why are there conditions in the New Testament. For example, the rich man making it to heaven. If God gives us our lot in life, why suggest that our works have anything to do with the end result. Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 21, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2016 That's a good question, End3. One which a Christian should be able to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 That's a good question, End3. One which a Christian should be able to answer. Well, we would assume it falls back to Christ's judgment....which reverts back to God knowing beforehand. So the key here is, the literal Key, out of a condemned condition. Then the question becomes can humanity change God's mind....but if he knew, then he knew he would be swayed blah blah blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 21, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2016 Your "answer" doesn't successfully put any distance between you and square one, never mind bringing you back to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Your "answer" doesn't successfully put any distance between you and square one, never mind bringing you back to it. Yeah, ease up there slick. Will have to investigate the God changing his mind thing. You have noticed the rate at which I've been addressing this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 21, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2016 Take your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 That's a good question, End3. One which a Christian should be able to answer. Well, we would assume it falls back to Christ's judgment....which reverts back to God knowing beforehand. So the key here is, the literal Key, out of a condemned condition. Then the question becomes can humanity change God's mind....but if he knew, then he knew he would be swayed blah blah blah. I just knew you would say that End. But I didn't make you say it now, did I? Tell them that about that when they bring up free will and God's foreknowledge. Tell them too that predestination is merely letting others have their free will and making sure that that is played out in their lives because it is what they chose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 29, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted November 29, 2016 That's a good question, End3. One which a Christian should be able to answer. Well, we would assume it falls back to Christ's judgment....which reverts back to God knowing beforehand. So the key here is, the literal Key, out of a condemned condition. Then the question becomes can humanity change God's mind....but if he knew, then he knew he would be swayed blah blah blah. Since you've joined us again, End3, here's some food for thought concerning humans changing the mind of an unchanging god: Numbers 23 : 19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? 1 Samuel 15 : 29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind. Malachi 3 : 6 I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. Hebrews 13 : 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever James 1 : 17 Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow. . . . https://carm.org/bib...d-change-or-not https://carm.org/can...change-his-mind . . . So, temporal humans cannot change God's eternal mind. Your thoughts? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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