bornagainathiest Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Here's what I see...and y'all may disagree. In our experience, within the "fall", I only know of two ways to perceive experience....it's either promoting life or promoting death.....good or evil, regardless of whether I know which one it is. Romans 5 : 12 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned Outside of the fall, i.e. Eden, I don't expect that dichotomy....I expect a relationship with God to be only promoting life... Only if Adam and Eve could experience and understand this - which they couldn't until after they ate the fruit. So this is why I say that any experience that God had with A&E in the garden was towards good and life. Scripture says their eyes were closed to understanding what good (life) and evil (death) until after they ate. This is why I asked whether the snake was under the direction of God. Making God responsible for tempting his children and bringing evil and death into the world. Which would mean changing Romans to read that sin and death came into the world through... God. It seems reasonable from the text that A&E had the ability to experience both and the consequences. No. It is not reasonable to say that from the text. The text clearly says that Adam and Eve's eyes were closed to both the experience and understanding of good (life) and evil (death) until after they ate. This is why I say that God was only Himself promoting life to A&E, or else they would of had to face "the fall" despite the snake. Why would God promote life when He knew they couldn't experience or understand it until after they ate? Simple request, End. Please cite the chapter and verse where Adam and Eve were first able to experience and understand good (life) and evil (death). (Hint. You won't find it in Genesis chapters 1 or 2 and you won't find it after Genesis 3 : 8.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Here's what I see...and y'all may disagree. In our experience, within the "fall", I only know of two ways to perceive experience....it's either promoting life or promoting death.....good or evil, regardless of whether I know which one it is. Romans 5 : 12 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,[/size] and death through sin,[/size] and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned[/size] Outside of the fall, i.e. Eden, I don't expect that dichotomy....I expect a relationship with God to be only promoting life... Only if Adam and Eve could experience and understand this - which they couldn't until after they ate the fruit. So this is why I say that any experience that God had with A&E in the garden was towards good and life. Scripture says their eyes were closed to understanding what good (life) and evil (death) until after they ate. This is why I asked whether the snake was under the direction of God. Making God responsible for tempting his children and bringing evil and death into the world. Which would mean changing Romans to read that sin and death came into the world through... God. It seems reasonable from the text that A&E had the ability to experience both and the consequences. No. It is not reasonable to say that from the text. The text clearly says that Adam and Eve's eyes were closed to both the experience and understanding of good (life) and evil (death) until after they ate. This is why I say that God was only Himself promoting life to A&E, or else they would of had to face "the fall" despite the snake. Why would God promote life when He knew they couldn't experience or understand it until after they ate? Simple request, End. Please cite the chapter and verse where Adam and Eve were first able to experience and understand good (life) and evil (death). (Hint. You won't find it in Genesis chapters 1 or 2 and you won't find it after Genesis 3 : 8.) Eve experienced before she ate the fruit. Did she know what she was experiencing?, perhaps not. As I have stated before, it then goes to free will. Did God control the snake, does God control us? Y'all wish to ultimately blame God. Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamia Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 no, we don't belive in god And that is pretty much the exact question that people are trying to get you to comprehend. If god created eve, down to the atom, and god knew what she would do before she did it, because HE MADE her, then no. She could not tell the snake no because she wanted to, She would not want to tell the snake no, because that isn't how god made her. In her perfect, supposedly unadulterated state, she merely GAVE INTO the CURIOSITY that GOD had put in her. remember, this is supposedly before sin entered the world. eve, in her perfect state, as god had made her, did as he MUST have known she would do. This is like a toddler touching a stove, that I have purposely lit, and refuse to turn off, verbally telling them not to touch it, knowing they will because I have programmed them to do the exact opposite, and then instead of letting the lesson be the lesson, for the creation I could have just as easily made infallible, damn them and all of their innocent progeny to misery and torment if they don't take the lucky guess at which of many gods will save them from a made up punishment, and have faith in me, despite what I have done to their forebears... A test of blind belief. not a test of their kindness, not a test of their intelligence, not a test of their love, not a test of their ability, a test of their gullibility. how controlling a behavior, if free will is gods "gift" to man. free will, and creationism, are incompatible ideas if god is really and truly in control of every detail, do you understand? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Y'all wish to ultimately blame God. And why shouldn't we? There was no reason to put the tree in the garden in the first place. Since god himself admitted that all his works were good, there was no reason to "test" them in the first place...unless god, who is all knowing wasn't quite sure if they really were good. The bible also states that as soon as god made man he "blessed them." Ok, so god blessing man was putting him under a test he knew he would fail, while also sending satan right into the mix to help tempt them? Something isn't adding up here. Christians can say what they want, but common sense says otherwise, rendering their reasoning to be impotent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Here's what I see...and y'all may disagree. In our experience, within the "fall", I only know of two ways to perceive experience....it's either promoting life or promoting death.....good or evil, regardless of whether I know which one it is. Romans 5 : 12 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,[/size] and death through sin,[/size] and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned[/size] Outside of the fall, i.e. Eden, I don't expect that dichotomy....I expect a relationship with God to be only promoting life... Only if Adam and Eve could experience and understand this - which they couldn't until after they ate the fruit. So this is why I say that any experience that God had with A&E in the garden was towards good and life. Scripture says their eyes were closed to understanding what good (life) and evil (death) until after they ate. This is why I asked whether the snake was under the direction of God. Making God responsible for tempting his children and bringing evil and death into the world. Which would mean changing Romans to read that sin and death came into the world through... God. It seems reasonable from the text that A&E had the ability to experience both and the consequences. No. It is not reasonable to say that from the text. The text clearly says that Adam and Eve's eyes were closed to both the experience and understanding of good (life) and evil (death) until after they ate. This is why I say that God was only Himself promoting life to A&E, or else they would of had to face "the fall" despite the snake. Why would God promote life when He knew they couldn't experience or understand it until after they ate? Simple request, End. Please cite the chapter and verse where Adam and Eve were first able to experience and understand good (life) and evil (death). (Hint. You won't find it in Genesis chapters 1 or 2 and you won't find it after Genesis 3 : 8.) Eve experienced before she ate the fruit. Did she know what she was experiencing?, perhaps not. As I have stated before, it then goes to free will. Did God control the snake, does God control us? Y'all wish to ultimately blame God. Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to? No. You provide the chapter and verse that i asked for FIRST, End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Here's what I see...and y'all may disagree. In our experience, within the "fall", I only know of two ways to perceive experience....it's either promoting life or promoting death.....good or evil, regardless of whether I know which one it is. Romans 5 : 12 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,[/size] and death through sin,[/size] and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned[/size] Outside of the fall, i.e. Eden, I don't expect that dichotomy....I expect a relationship with God to be only promoting life... Only if Adam and Eve could experience and understand this - which they couldn't until after they ate the fruit. So this is why I say that any experience that God had with A&E in the garden was towards good and life. Scripture says their eyes were closed to understanding what good (life) and evil (death) until after they ate. This is why I asked whether the snake was under the direction of God. Making God responsible for tempting his children and bringing evil and death into the world. Which would mean changing Romans to read that sin and death came into the world through... God. It seems reasonable from the text that A&E had the ability to experience both and the consequences. No. It is not reasonable to say that from the text. The text clearly says that Adam and Eve's eyes were closed to both the experience and understanding of good (life) and evil (death) until after they ate. This is why I say that God was only Himself promoting life to A&E, or else they would of had to face "the fall" despite the snake. Why would God promote life when He knew they couldn't experience or understand it until after they ate? Simple request, End. Please cite the chapter and verse where Adam and Eve were first able to experience and understand good (life) and evil (death). (Hint. You won't find it in Genesis chapters 1 or 2 and you won't find it after Genesis 3 : 8.) Eve experienced before she ate the fruit. Did she know what she was experiencing?, perhaps not. As I have stated before, it then goes to free will. Did God control the snake, does God control us? Y'all wish to ultimately blame God. Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to? No. You provide the chapter and verse that i asked for FIRST, End. Quit being a dick. The verse is the one that says now they have become like us......that they now "know". That word basically says that they were then able to discern, to consider, to become wise about good and evil. So I stand by what I said about they could experience, but will allow they weren't able to weigh the consequences before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 no, we don't belive in god And that is pretty much the exact question that people are trying to get you to comprehend. If god created eve, down to the atom, and god knew what she would do before she did it, because HE MADE her, then no. She could not tell the snake no because she wanted to, She would not want to tell the snake no, because that isn't how god made her. In her perfect, supposedly unadulterated state, she merely GAVE INTO the CURIOSITY that GOD had put in her. remember, this is supposedly before sin entered the world. eve, in her perfect state, as god had made her, did as he MUST have known she would do. This is like a toddler touching a stove, that I have purposely lit, and refuse to turn off, verbally telling them not to touch it, knowing they will because I have programmed them to do the exact opposite, and then instead of letting the lesson be the lesson, for the creation I could have just as easily made infallible, damn them and all of their innocent progeny to misery and torment if they don't take the lucky guess at which of many gods will save them from a made up punishment, and have faith in me, despite what I have done to their forebears... A test of blind belief. not a test of their kindness, not a test of their intelligence, not a test of their love, not a test of their ability, a test of their gullibility. how controlling a behavior, if free will is gods "gift" to man. free will, and creationism, are incompatible ideas if god is really and truly in control of every detail, do you understand? I would agree with you if I thought humans were nothing more than physical. Will have to think on this one. Thx MM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Y'all wish to ultimately blame God. And why shouldn't we? There was no reason to put the tree in the garden in the first place. Since god himself admitted that all his works were good, there was no reason to "test" them in the first place...unless god, who is all knowing wasn't quite sure if they really were good. The bible also states that as soon as god made man he "blessed them." Ok, so god blessing man was putting him under a test he knew he would fail, while also sending satan right into the mix to help tempt them? Something isn't adding up here. Christians can say what they want, but common sense says otherwise, rendering their reasoning to be impotent. After years of reading and hearing the genesis story, I started thinking that the tree of knowledge, the snake, life and all the other trees had something to do with an ancient culture mapping the mind. But somehow that story got grafted into the Jewish cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 I don't know why Adam and Eve (in the myth) didn't just first eat from the Tree of Life and then eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Checkmate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 I don't know why Adam and Eve (in the myth) didn't just first eat from the Tree of Life and then eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Checkmate. Every now and then I read a post that makes me think, 'damn why didn't I think of that.' This is one of those posts. Outstanding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 I don't know why Adam and Eve (in the myth) didn't just first eat from the Tree of Life and then eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Checkmate. Every now and then I read a post that makes me think, 'damn why didn't I think of that.' This is one of those posts. Outstanding! It's like in Lord of the Rings...Why didn't Frodo just ride an Eagle all the way from the Shire to Mr. Doom? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Quit being a dick. The verse is the one that says now they have become like us......that they now "know". That word basically says that they were then able to discern, to consider, to become wise about good and evil. So I stand by what I said about they could experience, but will allow they weren't able to weigh the consequences before. Thank you making my argument for me, End. With His perfect foreknowledge God would have known that before they ate the fruit they wouldn't have been able to weigh the consequences of their actions. So He knew this when he said to Adam... “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” . . . You say that we ultimately want to blame God. But the text itself does that without any help from us. Ultimately it cuts no ice if the Adam and Eve were surrounded by morally good fruit or were able to experience the goodness of everything God provided them with. Not if He withheld the ability to weigh the consequences of their actions from them. Again, thank you for making my argument so succinctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Now End, Here's my simple request again, slightly modified to bring it up to date. Please cite the chapter and verse where Adam and Eve were first able to weigh the consequences of their actions. (Hint. You won't find it in Genesis chapters 1 or 2 and you won't find it after Genesis 3 : 8.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 I don't know why Adam and Eve (in the myth) didn't just first eat from the Tree of Life and then eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Checkmate. The problem is no one has reentered the garden of Eden since 6000 BC, so how can Christians have life. The tree of life is in the garden silly, you're all dying with Christ for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 I don't know why Adam and Eve (in the myth) didn't just first eat from the Tree of Life and then eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Checkmate. The problem is no one has reentered the garden of Eden since 6000 BC, so how can Christians have life. The tree of life is in the garden silly, you're all dying with Christ for nothing. If Adam and Eve ate first from the Tree of Life, they could not die and would still be alive today, as would all of their descendants, according to the myth of course. Talk about overpopulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 I don't know why Adam and Eve (in the myth) didn't just first eat from the Tree of Life and then eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Checkmate. The problem is no one has reentered the garden of Eden since 6000 BC, so how can Christians have life. The tree of life is in the garden silly, you're all dying with Christ for nothing. If Adam and Eve ate first from the Tree of Life, they could not die and would still be alive today, as would all of their descendants, according to the myth of course. Talk about overpopulation. Well maybe they could all move to kolob, I hear that's where God lives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamia Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 no, we don't belive in god And that is pretty much the exact question that people are trying to get you to comprehend. If god created eve, down to the atom, and god knew what she would do before she did it, because HE MADE her, then no. She could not tell the snake no because she wanted to, She would not want to tell the snake no, because that isn't how god made her. In her perfect, supposedly unadulterated state, she merely GAVE INTO the CURIOSITY that GOD had put in her. remember, this is supposedly before sin entered the world. eve, in her perfect state, as god had made her, did as he MUST have known she would do. This is like a toddler touching a stove, that I have purposely lit, and refuse to turn off, verbally telling them not to touch it, knowing they will because I have programmed them to do the exact opposite, and then instead of letting the lesson be the lesson, for the creation I could have just as easily made infallible, damn them and all of their innocent progeny to misery and torment if they don't take the lucky guess at which of many gods will save them from a made up punishment, and have faith in me, despite what I have done to their forebears... A test of blind belief. not a test of their kindness, not a test of their intelligence, not a test of their love, not a test of their ability, a test of their gullibility. how controlling a behavior, if free will is gods "gift" to man. free will, and creationism, are incompatible ideas if god is really and truly in control of every detail, do you understand? I would agree with you if I thought humans were nothing more than physical. Will have to think on this one. Thx MM. i mean, regardless, nothing is really physical as most people picture it, It is what it is but the word "physical" as it applies to matter really doesn't do the concept any justice. emotions and thoughts once thought to me immaterial in nature are now known to be the very tangible and observable physical effect of chemicals and electrical impulses coursing through our bodies. And even so, considering that god is supposed to be the alpha and omega, the original, in charge of everything, the "physical" and the "spiritual" I fail to see what difference it would make, you know what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 29, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 29, 2016 This is why I say that God was only Himself promoting life to A&E, or else they would of had to face "the fall" despite the snake. Were this the case, then why was there ever any need for "death" in the first place? Everything god created was "good". He could have left it that way. If he were only promoting "life", why did he feel the need to "test" anyone? And add "death" as a consequence? No one else was promoting "death". Adam and Eve didn't even understand what that word meant. The serpent was promoting mainly knowledge. Only god, only god, had anything to say about "death". Yet, everything was already "good". Why did god feel the need to fuck with a "good" thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 29, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 29, 2016 Eve experienced before she ate the fruit. Did she know what she was experiencing?, perhaps not. As I have stated before, it then goes to free will. Did God control the snake, does God control us? Y'all wish to ultimately blame God. Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to? "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:5 What Eve was able to experience was pride: the desire to rise above her station, the need to become greater than she was. Being like god was an idea that appealed to her at a very deep level. She was motivated by pride. But, isn't pride a sin? Isn't it, in fact, one of the seven deadly sins? How could she be motivated by sin before eating the fruit? How could she experience sin when she was still in her "perfect" state? How could such a motivation even be a part of her nature, if she were created in the "image of god"? Unless sin is also a part of god's nature, in which Eve was created? Which brings us back to Isaiah 45:7. ("I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.") 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 29, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 29, 2016 Y'all wish to ultimately blame God. Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to? Could god have not put the tree, or the snake, in the garden in the first place? This speaks to why, ultimately, it is god's fault, whether we want to blame him or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 29, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 29, 2016 The verse is the one that says now they have become like us......that they now "know". That word basically says that they were then able to discern, to consider, to become wise about good and evil. So I stand by what I said about they could experience, but will allow they weren't able to weigh the consequences before. You've finally admitted that god gave them a "test" that was completely unfair. This is precisely what I've been trying to tell you. They had NO ability to choose between "good" and "evil" because they had no understanding of these concepts, or, as you phrase it, "they weren't able to weigh the consequences before." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 The verse is the one that says now they have become like us......that they now "know". That word basically says that they were then able to discern, to consider, to become wise about good and evil. So I stand by what I said about they could experience, but will allow they weren't able to weigh the consequences before. You've finally admitted that god gave them a "test" that was completely unfair. This is precisely what I've been trying to tell you. They had NO ability to choose between "good" and "evil" because they had no understanding of these concepts, or, as you phrase it, "they weren't able to weigh the consequences before."Maybe it was a misuse of some other thinking process that caused them to choose the fruit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 Eve experienced before she ate the fruit. Did she know what she was experiencing?, perhaps not. As I have stated before, it then goes to free will. Did God control the snake, does God control us? Y'all wish to ultimately blame God. Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to? "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:5 What Eve was able to experience was pride: the desire to rise above her station, the need to become greater than she was. Being like god was an idea that appealed to her at a very deep level. She was motivated by pride. But, isn't pride a sin? Isn't it, in fact, one of the seven deadly sins? How could she be motivated by sin before eating the fruit? How could she experience sin when she was still in her "perfect" state? How could such a motivation even be a part of her nature, if she were created in the "image of god"? Unless sin is also a part of god's nature, in which Eve was created? Which brings us back to Isaiah 45:7. ("I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.") Which was my point if I am not mistaken.... Goes back to my other point that if they were capable of experiencing for lack of a better word, or being influenced by sin, then it seems to me that God was only presenting good. Really have no idea why the need to put the temptation in the garden....to play out the Jesus plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 30, 2016 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 30, 2016 Are you agreeing with the suggestion that the capacity to experience sin was already a part of Adam and Eve's nature, before eating the fruit? Keep in mind that they were supposedly created in the image of god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Eve experienced before she ate the fruit. Did she know what she was experiencing?, perhaps not. As I have stated before, it then goes to free will. Did God control the snake, does God control us? Y'all wish to ultimately blame God. Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to? "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:5 What Eve was able to experience was pride: the desire to rise above her station, the need to become greater than she was. Being like god was an idea that appealed to her at a very deep level. She was motivated by pride. But, isn't pride a sin? Isn't it, in fact, one of the seven deadly sins? How could she be motivated by sin before eating the fruit? How could she experience sin when she was still in her "perfect" state? How could such a motivation even be a part of her nature, if she were created in the "image of god"? Unless sin is also a part of god's nature, in which Eve was created? Which brings us back to Isaiah 45:7. ("I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.") Which was my point if I am not mistaken.... Goes back to my other point that if they were capable of experiencing for lack of a better word, or being influenced by sin, then it seems to me that God was only presenting good. Really have no idea why the need to put the temptation in the garden....to play out the Jesus plan? But by your own words End, you've agreed that God could not be presenting only good to Adam and Eve. By making them unable to weigh the consequences of their actions (your words) and then setting them a test that required them to do just that, God was doing evil to them. Unless you're saying that by setting up His test for them in this way, God was doing good to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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