Braveheart Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 As I come from a Young Earth Creationist background I learned that death came on earth after Adam and Eve had sinned. When I as a student listened to a professor in developmental biology (at that time I had already left Christianity), I learned that all plants, animals, humans and even some bacteria and other single cell organisms have an inbuild program called programmed cell death. You can't exist without this program. If PCD doesn't work properly, you will die or - if it only affects some cells - you will be born with some defects. This was really an eye opener to me. I couldn't get this into the Bible so to say. If death only came by sinning Adam and Eve, they didn't have the same genetics as we have or other life on earth has. I never found a discussion about this topic in Creationist circles (but I don't know the English-speaking ones). Death is necessary for life. Okay, this kind of death is not the death of the whole organism (at least if you are not a single cell) but nevertheless it is death. Cells stop working, they will destroy themselves. Anyone here who already tried to get this concept fitting to the Bible tale of "death came through sin"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamia Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I used to reason this kind of thing out over and over and over again. Trying to theorize about how things we know, concretely could fit in with what I had been taught in the bible. Not this detail specifically, but I tried to picture what life without death would be like. Were there babies born? No christians call a cheetah sinful for eating a gazelle, but at one point this behavior of hunting supposedly didn't happen? There are animals and plants and fungi who rely SOLELY on other organisms dying, did these not exist before "the fall?" Or were they all vegetarian, but wait, plants are alive too... maybe no organism ate anything and all organisms just existed in stasis by themselves?? Then what it the point of all of these complex chemical processes that god supposedly hand tailored that rely on death? None of it stands up to close scrutiny. The christian answer is generally "who knows the workings of god?" Or,"i choose to believe even though I can't explain" etc. This stuff drove me nuts as a kid. I need to picture how something works from the ground up, and work through it meticulously, or it bothers me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Are you referring to a concept known as apoptosis? This "programmed" cell death is indeed critical to life. In fact, a significant part of cancer is that cancerous cells loose the ability to respond to apoptotic signals. They basically grow and divide unchecked. Apoptosis is critical and simply due to the biochemistry of life. You see, for our cells to do anything, they need to create high energy molecules that "fuel" cellular processes. The main fuel is a molecule known as adenosine triphosphate or ATP. In order to make large amounts of ATP, our cells make use of a cycle known as oxidative phosphorylation or something known as electron transport. Basically, we tear Hydrogen atoms off of molecules, pull the electron off the Hydrogen atoms to create Hydrogen ions or protons and pile all these ions up behind a membrane. Imagine water piling up behind a dam. Then, the ions flow through protein channels like water flows through a generator in a dam. The energy is use to create the ATP molecules. The electrons that were torn off the Hydrogen atoms are used to power the various proteins that help make the ATP. At the end of the day, there are a bunch of protons and electrons left over. These "wastes" are attached to Oxygen atoms and turned into water. Basically, this is what's happening to the Oxygen we breath. It acts like a sort of intercellular "garbage truck." However, oxygen is rather reactive and can exist in highly reactive states when it combines with Hydrogen ions and electrons. This can make reactive and damaging molecules (reactive Oxygen species, free radicals and so on). These molecules invariably damage the cell and ultimately are a major component of aging and "normal" wear and tear. Typically, the seriously damaged cells or the immune system identity irreparable damage and initiate a cascade of events that leads to programmed cell death before things get out of hand. Of course, many other processes can damage cells but at the end of the day, normal energy production results in damage. That's just the way it is. No sin or any of that hocus pocus horse shit. It's just a side effect of chemical reactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 As I come from a Young Earth Creationist background I learned that death came on earth after Adam and Eve had sinned. When I as a student listened to a professor in developmental biology (at that time I had already left Christianity), I learned that all plants, animals, humans and even some bacteria and other single cell organisms have an inbuild program called programmed cell death. You can't exist without this program. If PCD doesn't work properly, you will die or - if it only affects some cells - you will be born with some defects. This was really an eye opener to me. I couldn't get this into the Bible so to say. If death only came by sinning Adam and Eve, they didn't have the same genetics as we have or other life on earth has. I never found a discussion about this topic in Creationist circles (but I don't know the English-speaking ones). Death is necessary for life. Okay, this kind of death is not the death of the whole organism (at least if you are not a single cell) but nevertheless it is death. Cells stop working, they will destroy themselves. Anyone here who already tried to get this concept fitting to the Bible tale of "death came through sin"? Assuming the Adam and Eve myth is true for discussion purposes, death already existed. They consumed plants and many of those plants died to act as their food. To the extent they were carnivores, animals died too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braveheart Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 Apoptosis is one kind of programmed cell death, necrosis is the other one. I found some American creationist website discussing this issue. They seem to believe that human death is something different from death. And in their opinion apoptosis only occurs in multicellular organisms (which is not true), so it would be a proof of creation (?!?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Necrosis is not considered a form of "programmed" cell death however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Why are you still trying to fit science into mythology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braveheart Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 Alberts, Cell biology, German translation, is considering necrosis as part of programmed cell death. I want to know how to answer Christians if they try to make arguments about such things. It's better to know by forhand which answers they would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Both are forms of cell death, but most agree that apoptosis is truly programmed. Perhaps stick with non-translated sources and what the majority consensus says about these concepts. Apoptotic and necrotic cellular pathways are very different in many regards and are characterised by distinct morphological findings. While much is still not well understood, these really are two different concepts. Perhaps review some of the literature? I'll leave links to abstracts: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12063564/ http://m.pnas.org/content/92/16/7162.short http://m.jem.rupress.org/content/185/8/1481.short http://science.sciencemag.org/content/325/5938/332 https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nicolas_Bazan/publication/273133693_Basic_Neurochemistry_Molecular_Cellular_and_Medical_Aspects_(8th_Edition)._Apoptosis_and_Necrosis._Chapter_37/links/54f8c20d0cf28d6deca2bfc6.pdf There is some evidence that suggests other concepts may arise from shared features of both apoptosis and necrosis. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1097-4652(200001)182:1%3C41::AID-JCP5%3E3.0.CO;2-7/abstract;jsessionid=2D285B9F959186F47D8EF965FF6AE37D.f03t02 However, at the end of the day, only one of these concepts goes along with "normal" physiological adaptation and that is apoptosis. Hence, the term programmed really does apply. We just do not see necrosis in normally developing babies as they get rid of unnecessary cells during normal development. This looks to be distinctly apoptotic, hence the term really does have impact and differentiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braveheart Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 Thank you for the links. I will check them.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 As I come from a Young Earth Creationist background I learned that death came on earth after Adam and Eve had sinned. When I as a student listened to a professor in developmental biology (at that time I had already left Christianity), I learned that all plants, animals, humans and even some bacteria and other single cell organisms have an inbuild program called programmed cell death. You can't exist without this program. If PCD doesn't work properly, you will die or - if it only affects some cells - you will be born with some defects. This was really an eye opener to me. I couldn't get this into the Bible so to say. If death only came by sinning Adam and Eve, they didn't have the same genetics as we have or other life on earth has. I never found a discussion about this topic in Creationist circles (but I don't know the English-speaking ones). Death is necessary for life. Okay, this kind of death is not the death of the whole organism (at least if you are not a single cell) but nevertheless it is death. Cells stop working, they will destroy themselves. Anyone here who already tried to get this concept fitting to the Bible tale of "death came through sin"? I think about this a lot, most of what you said except the relating it to the bible part. Cells are life. Death is written in of course, naturally, as part of the life cycles of generations of cells who make up a larger organism. This is a foundation of my spirituality. Why would you want to try relating this to sin and a singular creation fable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 As I come from a Young Earth Creationist background I learned that death came on earth after Adam and Eve had sinned. When I as a student listened to a professor in developmental biology (at that time I had already left Christianity), I learned that all plants, animals, humans and even some bacteria and other single cell organisms have an inbuild program called programmed cell death. You can't exist without this program. If PCD doesn't work properly, you will die or - if it only affects some cells - you will be born with some defects. This was really an eye opener to me. I couldn't get this into the Bible so to say. If death only came by sinning Adam and Eve, they didn't have the same genetics as we have or other life on earth has. I never found a discussion about this topic in Creationist circles (but I don't know the English-speaking ones). Death is necessary for life. Okay, this kind of death is not the death of the whole organism (at least if you are not a single cell) but nevertheless it is death. Cells stop working, they will destroy themselves. Anyone here who already tried to get this concept fitting to the Bible tale of "death came through sin"? Ultimately matter is recyclable, energy is changeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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