Free Hate Speech

[Lilith666]

Pastor Steven L. Anderson posted a video to YouTube saying that at least it was fifty "sodomites" and "pedophiles" who died in Orlando. He said that he does not support vigilante violence because it's against the law, but that gay people should be executed by the government "through the proper channels." YouTube has removed it for violating its policy against "hate speech." So unfortunately, I can't post a link here.

 

Silencing Anderson will not make him stop having his opinion. It won't change the minds of people who think like he does or of people who actually plan to kill gays. But it will make him and others feel they're being persecuted and cause them to become even more determined to hang on to their bigoted beliefs. Furthermore, trying to destroy expression of an opinion you don't like shows how afraid you are of that person's belief. Are we really going to respond to evil people by not just making them band together, but letting them know we fear them? That is how people like Anderson and the Orlando shooter gain control.

 

Instead of scrambling to stop anyone from speaking their minds, we need to push back against intolerance with kindness. Donate blood, give money to a shelter for homeless gay teens, even be compassionate to homophobic people. Hateful people need someone to show them how to be loving. Don't be a doormat, but don't lash out just because someone who is more miserable than you can probably imagine decided to make you the misery-dumping target of the day. Gay people especially should be gracious to homophobic people because of the terrible opinion they have of us. Sometimes they just haven't been taught differently.

 

As I'm writing this I'm thinking, "It's not our responsibility to do their parents' job for them. They are choosing to be jerks. We can't change anyone." Okay, we can't change anyone, but we can encourage them to change themselves. We all have different circumstances, and for some of us that means growing up in a home where tolerance is not valued and closed-mindedness is taught. Many of us here were also anti-gay at some point. People like the shooter lack so much humility and compassion that we should try to make up for them.

This probably sounds really preachy. Sorry. I just get so frustrated when people decide that hammering someone down is a good response to that person being a jerk, instead of countering their nasty attitude with something positive. I've got plenty to work on myself.

 

Steven Anderson has a right to express himself just as much as the rest of us do. His opinion itself doesn't have any power unless we give it power, and one way to do that is by making him look like a victim who has been shut down by the establishment. Attacking words, not actions, sets a precedent for prosecuting thought crimes and censoring whatever we subjectively find harmful.

 

When someone shows meanness, instead of just shutting them up, it's our job to answer with the opposite. We need to have faith that human kindness and tolerance, not censorship, can beat hatred.

 

Edit: Minor wording changes.

 

I hope you're all doing all right and that none of you were affected by the killings. Hugs to everyone.

[miamia]

Hear hear. (HUGS)

[Lilith666]

((miamia))

[Mike D]

Pastor Steven L. Anderson posted a video to YouTube saying that at least it was fifty "sodomites" and "pedophiles" who died in Orlando. He said that he does not support vigilante violence because it's against the law, but that gay people should be executed by the government "through the proper channels."

 

Never heard of this guy.  Is he taking over for that trash Fred Phelps after he croaked?

 

People like him are the reason I keep loaded guns around.  Just in case the holy spirit moves him to not wait for the government to start executing gays.

[RealityCheck]

These videos, as morally reprehensible as they are, NEED to be heard.  Nothing destroys the cause of rabid fundamentalists more than publicly pulling stunts like this.  The Westborough Baptist church just needed to conduct business as usual to be reviled for example.

[Lilith666]

Exactly, RC! Yes! But like so many other public entities, YouTube is throwing out common sense in favor of appealing to popular opinion.

[RealityCheck]

In a free marketplace of ideas, this kind of crap will be ridiculed and condemned.  When someone is controlling the narrative (IE censoring content), it doesn't give individuals the whole picture nor the info needed to make a real choice.  Would it be healthier to despise hate because you honestly revile it or because someone forced their agenda on you?  

In Psychology there is a thing called Reactance.  It's defined as "a motivational reaction to offers, persons, rules, or regulations that threaten or eliminate specific behavioral freedoms. Reactance occurs when a person feels that someone or something is taking away his or her choices or limiting the range of alternatives."  If you limit freedom to choose, people will tend to stand against you even if you hold a moral high ground.

[rjn]

This could be one of best posts I've read here on ex-C. Seriously, great stuff Lilith666!

[Tsathoggua]

These videos, as morally reprehensible as they are, NEED to be heard.  Nothing destroys the cause of rabid fundamentalists more than publicly pulling stunts like this.  The Westborough Baptist church just needed to conduct business as usual to be reviled for example.

 

Excellent point!  I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[Margee]

These videos, as morally reprehensible as they are, NEED to be heard.  Nothing destroys the cause of rabid fundamentalists more than publicly pulling stunts like this.  The Westborough Baptist church just needed to conduct business as usual to be reviled for example.

I made myself watch this and almost threw up. But you are right RC.....he is so beyond, he sounds fucking insane. Maybe, this type of preaching will wake up other pastors and churches  so they might see the hate in these preachers. Softer preachers may be preaching the same thing but it's all hate. Then again, when you fundamentally believe the bible the way they do, they simply think it's 'god's word'.......

[Lilith666]

Guys, what's a hashtag we can start to pass around the Internet about this? Something conveying that taking away more freedom is the wrong response to freedom being taken away. Like fighting fire with fire. I'm a little wary of starting a thing like that because it can turn into a fashion statement that people use to feel better about themselves without really doing anything, but if YouTube is going to do whatever they think will make them look good, they can also be bent under pressure.

[rjn]

#PastorStevenIsAnAsshole?

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

The Friendly Atheist has posted stuff about this dickhead before:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/12/03/pastor-steven-anderson-if-you-executed-the-homos-like-god-recommends-the-world-would-be-aids-free-by-christmas/

[Lilith666]

No, seriously. Shutting down unpopular thought is really fashionable lately, and this is what fascists thrive on. YouTube is legally entitled to make their own policies, but they're still violating the principle of freedom of expression, especially since they are a huge outlet for the very thing that they are restricting. Modern liberals have the idea that that only applies to the government not being allowed to censor, but they don't get that threatening one person's liberty is a threat to all of us because in the right context, anything can be argued to be offensive. When nobody does anything to push back against suppression, the suppressors get to be in charge. This is why the far-left students at Mizzou and Yale and other universities are running the show now and getting faculty to resign, because they gave orders and others obeyed.

 

More than that, as Reality Check pointed out, the Westboro Baptists destroyed themselves all on their own just by yelling their opinion. YouTube is protecting Anderson from himself by censoring him.

 

Here is YouTube's "Hate Speech" policy. https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2801939?hl=en Notice that they claim to encourage free speech, but then immediately say they don't permit hate speech. They do not understand that shutting people down doesn't make their opinion go away. Those people will go right on believing what they believe, finding another way to spread it, and as the shooter did, act on their beliefs even if they aren't allowed to express them. If the Orlando shooter had run around screaming that gay people deserve to die before entering the club and he had been stopped from speaking, would that have prevented him from committing the murders? No. He would have done it anyway.

 

There's a difference between saying something, and actively organizing a plan to carry it out. No one should be punished just for expressing themselves. And knowing who believes that a certain group deserves punishment tells us who to watch out for.

 

I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep an eye on types who say that people need to be killed. We should; it would be asinine not to. But by stopping them from speaking, we prevent ourselves from knowing who could be dangerous. We need to be aware of what goes on around us, not shut our eyes and plug our ears and then wonder what went wrong when people end up dead.

 

Really though, I need help with this hashtag. It seems like when somebody tells people their opinion, everyone says how much they agree and then nobody takes any real action to get something done. I'm not talented at marketing; anybody got some ideas?

[ToHellWithMe]

Well, #IStandWithHateSpeech has been hot lately.

[Lilith666]

I don't support hate. I just don't think shutting him up is going to do anything besides make everyone feel like they've done something.

[RealityCheck]

No, seriously. Shutting down unpopular thought is really fashionable lately, and this is what fascists thrive on. YouTube is legally entitled to make their own policies, but they're still violating the principle of freedom of expression, especially since they are a huge outlet for the very thing that they are restricting. Modern liberals have the idea that that only applies to the government not being allowed to censor, but they don't get that threatening one person's liberty is a threat to all of us because in the right context, anything can be argued to be offensive. When nobody does anything to push back against suppression, the suppressors get to be in charge. This is why the far-left students at Mizzou and Yale and other universities are running the show now and getting faculty to resign, because they gave orders and others obeyed.

 

This study was floating around a while ago http://reason.com/blog/2015/11/20/millennials-more-likely-to-support-censo

 

This trend isn't very encouraging.  Unless there is a massive cultural backlash, I fear we might be living in the last period of US history that truly permits free speech.  Once millenials get into positions of power, it's probably all over.  I don't think much of the younger generation has a grasp of history and the slippery slope we're on.

[Lilith666]

Which is why there needs to be a massive cultural backlash. Every culture and movement is made up of a bunch of individuals. I'm 21, part of the younger generation for whom there supposedly is no hope, and I don't believe in this.

 

I will never say it's all over. The harder it gets to defeat tyrants, the more we need to try to defeat them. We haven't even had government-ordered book burnings yet, and already people are giving up?

[Guest Furball]

 

These videos, as morally reprehensible as they are, NEED to be heard.  Nothing destroys the cause of rabid fundamentalists more than publicly pulling stunts like this.  The Westborough Baptist church just needed to conduct business as usual to be reviled for example.

I made myself watch this and almost threw up. But you are right RC.....he is so beyond, he sounds fucking insane. Maybe, this type of preaching will wake up other pastors and churches  so they might see the hate in these preachers. Softer preachers may be preaching the same thing but it's all hate. Then again, when you fundamentally believe the bible the way they do, they simply think it's 'god's word'.......

 

Hi Margee. You're so right. As long as they continue to believe they're reading "god's word", this insane way of thinking will continue. The moderate and liberal bible thumpers might come on a little softer, but like you said, it's all the same hatred, just toned down. It's baffling how they say they want to spread the love of god through jesus, but their actions show they just want to spread hatred and violence. The god of the bible is a murderer who hates humans...it's no wonder then that his followers act in the same way. I heard a christian once say that the number one reason people don't believe in christianity are the christians themselves and people like this steve anderson guy seem to corroborate that. It baffles all logic that someone can say something so horrible against their own fellow man and have people in the pews nodding in agreement with this. This is scary. They may not be going around killing people like they used to, but their words can kill just as quick. People like this are living proof just how dangerous religion and it's philosophy can be. 

[rjn]

Which is why there needs to be a massive cultural backlash. Every culture and movement is made up of a bunch of individuals. I'm 21, part of the younger generation for whom there supposedly is no hope, and I don't believe in this.

 

I will never say it's all over. The harder it gets to defeat tyrants, the more we need to try to defeat them. We haven't even had government-ordered book burnings yet, and already people are giving up?

 

21? Really? I assumed you were around 30 because, just like miamia, you strike me as a mature and wise adult woman with quite some experience under your belt. When I was 21 I was still acting like a confused teen. This makes me a tad more hopeful for the future, if not by much.

[miamia]

No one. and I mean no one. Gives millennials the credit they are due. Most of them, the vast majority by FAR are incredibly accepting, intelligent, kind helpful, hardworking, innovative, open minded, wonderful people. of course there are a few bad eggs. I actually think, and this is just a theory,That the reason people have such a poor view of millennials is that unlike the teens and young adults of yesteryear, whose idiotic thoughts, impulses, prejudice, whinging, and general self centeredness ( traits common to most youth in most eras I would guess, pubescent humans are LITERALY sociopaths. there is a reason you arent allowed to diagnose a personality disorder before a certain age) were confined to the dank darkness of their messy rooms and personal journals, NOW there is the internet for them to spew all of their pubescent insanity all over the place, have it perpetuated and supported by other young larva, and so on, and so on. And people are like OH MY GOODNESS. What the fuck is this. This is our youth ? Is this a new kind of human? I have been seeing a lot of this lately, is this normal? Who raised them? What barbarians! how hideous! But it isn't millenials. It's just. teenagers. the internet is a public and uninhibited place, And undeveloped people now have a platform to voice their idiocy that they previously didn't have before. But most teens and young adults do mature into wonderful things.  It's ok old boys. We really do have this. <3 the bad seems greater than the good because responsible youth are off being responsible instead of poorly representing the rest of us. It will be ok. the world will get better.

[RealityCheck]

 

Which is why there needs to be a massive cultural backlash. Every culture and movement is made up of a bunch of individuals. I'm 21, part of the younger generation for whom there supposedly is no hope, and I don't believe in this.

 

I will never say it's all over. The harder it gets to defeat tyrants, the more we need to try to defeat them. We haven't even had government-ordered book burnings yet, and already people are giving up?

 

 

21? Really? I assumed you were around 30 because, just like miamia, you strike me as a mature and wise adult woman with quite some experience under your belt. When I was 21 I was still acting like confused teen. This makes me a tad more hopeful for the future, if not by much.

Ditto what RJN said.

[Lilith666]

Except for the "teenagers" in their 20s who scream at college faculty over not banning Halloween costumes, corner them and openly accuse them of racism, march through libraries screaming at people that they're racists, claim to love diversity and inclusion but then shut down people who disagree with them (even immigrant ethnic minorities!), assault other students over their hairstyle, take away the platform from invited campus speakers, and threaten and assault said speakers. (Yale, Mizzou, Dartmouth, Claremont McKenna, San Francisco State, and DePaul, in that order).

 

I don't think most people that age agree with entitled behavior, but there sure as heck are a lot who do. And the people who are supposed to be in charge, i.e., college administrators, let them get away with it. Does anyone really think they would have let this fly on such a grand scale twenty or thirty years ago? (Or maybe they did. I wouldn't remember. But regardless, it's happening and must stop.) Not all millennials/Gen Z-ers are like this, but there are enough to get this going.

 

Edit: Aw thanks, rjn and RC.

[RealityCheck]

No one. and I mean no one. Gives millennials the credit they are due. Most of them, the vast majority by FAR are incredibly accepting, intelligent, kind helpful, hardworking, innovative, open minded, wonderful people. of course there are a few bad eggs. 

It seems that the further ahead you go, the less this is true.  I can cite statistics like the one in the article but also share some personal observations.  When I was in college (and this is as recent as 2010) you could express any idea.  Around campus, pretty much anything went.  There were religious groups posting pictures of aborted fetuses and going on about pro-life side by side with pro-choice atheist groups countering them.  There was the LGBT organization doing their thing on one side and college ministries on the other.  There were conservatives, liberals, an entire spectrum of ideologies clustered together, each with their respective kiosk or area.  Each of them ready to make their argument and share their views to whoever was willing to listen.  Some of that stuff was offensive but like adults, everyone ignored what they didn't like and kept walking.  I never once heard the words "triggered" or "safe space".  There wasn't any of the professional victim crap that's now prevalent.  With this said, I'm left wondering what the hell happened in the last few years?

 

Lets go even earlier than that.  In high school everyone had at least basic skills (reading, writing, etc).  Even the so called disadvantaged kids managed to graduate and could pass algebra 2, trig, calc, etc.  My 17 year old cousin is going to the same school and neither her nor her peers have even basic math skills.  One of the papers she was writing asked her to emphasize her feelings over a certain event vs stating historical fact....WTF?  This isn't some inner city HS we're talking about, this place is located in a wealthy area and is supposedly ranked as one of the best in the county.

 

And now lets go all the way to childhood.  Someone tried to make a case on Facebook that the natural rowdiness of boys was actually the beginning or rape culture.  How fucking sick and twisted do you have to be to think up this kind of shit.  Yeah, lets treat boys like monsters and see how that turns out.  (Temporary URL for screenshot, name is crossed out) http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=97070fb This is definitely NOT how people thought when I was a kid!

 

Things aren't looking promising for the future...not from my point of view.

 

Unfortunately, individuals like Lilith are few and far apart.  If the vast majority of millennials are as wonderful as you describe, they should be doing everything in their power to oppose the bad apples that threaten to run our civilization to the ground.  I hear silence from the younger crowd regarding this, most of the people who actively oppose the onslaught of political correctness seem to be older.  I guess living in the real world long enough does that to you...

 

It's only getting worse I'm afraid.  There seems to be a trend of colleges making "social justice" classes mandatory while relaxing requirements like math.  http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/14/when-social-justice-education-is-mandato Yeah, lets replace something that develops problem solving skills with a class that dumbs you down and makes you less capable of handling the real world.  Brilliant.

[dangitbobby83]

I agree with the sentiment in this thread. Let the hateful bigot be heard, in fact, give him a platform and a loudspeaker and watch as more people flee religion when they connect the dots - fundies don't invent this shit out of thin air, it comes from a specific book that contains parts even moderate/liberal christians have to try to distance from (or reject entirely).

[miamia]

 

No one. and I mean no one. Gives millennials the credit they are due. Most of them, the vast majority by FAR are incredibly accepting, intelligent, kind helpful, hardworking, innovative, open minded, wonderful people. of course there are a few bad eggs.

 

It seems that the further ahead you go, the less this is true.  I can cite statistics like the one in the article but also share some personal observations.  When I was in college (and this is as recent as 2010) you could express any idea.  Around campus, pretty much anything went.  There were religious groups posting pictures of aborted fetuses and going on about pro-life side by side with pro-choice atheist groups countering them.  There was the LGBT organization doing their thing on one side and college ministries on the other.  There were conservatives, liberals, an entire spectrum of ideologies clustered together, each with their respective kiosk or area.  Each of them ready to make their argument and share their views to whoever was willing to listen.  Some of that stuff was offensive but like adults, everyone ignored what they didn't like and kept walking.  I never once heard the words "triggered" or "safe space".  There wasn't any of the professional victim crap that's now prevalent.  With this said, I'm left wondering what the hell happened in the last few years?

Lets go even earlier than that.  In high school everyone had at least basic skills (reading, writing, etc).  Even the so called disadvantaged kids managed to graduate and could pass algebra 2, trig, calc, etc.  My 17 year old cousin is going to the same school and neither her nor her peers have even basic math skills.  One of the papers she was writing asked her to emphasize her feelings over a certain event vs stating historical fact....WTF?  This isn't some inner city HS we're talking about, this place is located in a wealthy area and is supposedly ranked as one of the best in the county.

And now lets go all the way to childhood.  Someone tried to make a case on Facebook that the natural rowdiness of boys was actually the beginning or rape culture.  How fucking sick and twisted do you have to be to think up this kind of shit.  Yeah, lets treat boys like monsters and see how that turns out.  (Temporary URL for screenshot, name is crossed out) http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=97070fb This is definitely NOT how people thought when I was a kid!

Things aren't looking promising for the future...not from my point of view.

Unfortunately, individuals like Lilith are few and far apart.  If the vast majority of millennials are as wonderful as you describe, they should be doing everything in their power to oppose the bad apples that threaten to run our civilization to the ground.  I hear silence from the younger crowd regarding this, most of the people who actively oppose the onslaught of political correctness seem to be older.  I guess living in the real world long enough does that to you...

It's only getting worse I'm afraid.  There seems to be a trend of colleges making "social justice" classes mandatory while relaxing requirements like math.  http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/14/when-social-justice-education-is-mandato Yeah, lets replace something that develops problem solving skills with a class that dumbs you down and makes you less capable of handling the real world.  Brilliant.

well I guess I'm just too optimistic. Maybe it's not the same everywhere.