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Goodbye Jesus

Christians, What Would Make You Leave Your Faith.


quinntar

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The title says it all I think.

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nothing

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Not even LSD?

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Ironhorse many here had the same conviction.  A more honest answer would be "I don't know".

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Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

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Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

That seems to be the nature of faith.
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Why nothing?
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You go young man! I remember that time of my life. It wasn't all bad. Fight the good fight, put on the full armor of God, and stand.

 

Ignore me, ignore everyone else here, and study what other people say about the Bible! 

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Ironhorse, we love you, but you must be the worst apologist ever. Sometimes I think you don't really believe, but are simply having fun playing Devil's Advocate. TrueScotsman is a better apologist.

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nothing

 

You go young man! I remember that time of my life. It wasn't all bad. Fight the good fight, put on the full armor of God, and stand.

 

Ignore me, ignore everyone else here, and study what other people say about the Bible! 

 

This is what I was going to say also dude. There was a time when you could not rock my boat when it came to giving up on my belief or faith in god. I had an atheist cousin who simply thought I was 'silly' because no matter how many points he would bring forth, I would would stick up for god with my armor on. 

 

Some people can make it through the worst tragedies and still believe. Their faith seems unshakable. Mine fell apart. First, I didn't feel the presence of god in any of the shit I went through for 20 years, one thing after another, with no relief (as much as I prayed) and I certainly didn't see anywhere that he was trying to bring me relief. Then I started investigating whether I believed in a  spiritual Santa Claus. Once my somewhat pessimistic personality kicked in and I started studying agnostics and atheist to see why they didn't believe, I could see it was all false and I believed in a lie. 

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Something that triggers doubt. Once doubt sets in believers begin to question their "beliefs & traditions" and when that happens their faith begins to crumble. If their doubt is serious enough they will begin to search for answers & when that happens their closed minds begin to be receptive to new information & when that happens their faith begins to melt away. Then one day they are posting their de-conversion story on this site.

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Ironhorse, we love you, but you must be the worst apologist ever. Sometimes I think you don't really believe, but are simply having fun playing Devil's Advocate. TrueScotsman is a better apologist.

I'm an apologist because I agree with the majority of modern scholarship which admits that Jesus at least existed?

 

You give an inch here, and people look at it like a mile.

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Ironhorse, May I ask you a question please? If your two year old child was snagged by an alligator right before your eyes and drawn into the water to get eaten alive or drown, where would you say god is in this? This incident happened last night at the happiest place on earth with young parents who tried to grasp the child from the beast's jaws. They watched.

 

Or this incident in May.....http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/wreck-survivors-continue-to-recover-in-local-hospi/nrFwp/

 

How do you justify god in this? Have you had to go through any horrific incidences? And how do you explain this?  I'd love to know. 

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The pain of staying the same has to be greater than the pain of change. This works for the mind as well. If there is no reason for the person to need to change his brains interpretation of the world, it will not change. Only under the severe stress of cognitive dissonance will people start to consider other options. So, while Ironhorse and others who are believers will never admit it, nor can they likely see it, the one thing that will cause them to leave their faith is severe cognitive dissonance.

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IH, please answer Margee's question above, I'm dying to hear it.

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Ironhorse, we love you, but you must be the worst apologist ever. Sometimes I think you don't really believe, but are simply having fun playing Devil's Advocate. TrueScotsman is a better apologist.

I'm an apologist because I agree with the majority of modern scholarship which admits that Jesus at least existed?

 

You give an inch here, and people look at it like a m an apologist because you continuously employ arguments used by Christian apologists. For exam

 

An apologist is someone who uses apologetics. You inform us that we sould read the Gospels first and then Paul. When you do that you read the Gospels into Paul, which is the Christian method. You tell us that Jesus of Nazareth certainly existed, not possibly existed, and that is something Christians do. The only place that Jesus of Nazareth appears, anywhere in the 1st Century, is in the Gospels. Not even the Epistles mention Jesus of Nazareth. I have to debate you like I do any other apologist. You are not here to learn, or to help de-converting or recenty de-converted Christians, but to show us why we're wrong, and that Christianity is realy not that all that bad. You say that I must respect, not just the Christian's right to believe, but that I should respect the Christian beliefs. No Atheist here respects the Christian beliefs, myself included. If any do, then I stand to be corrected. You tell me that you are an Atheist but talk more like a Christian.

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Ironhorse, May I ask you a question please? If your two year old child was snagged by an alligator right before your eyes and drawn into the water to get eaten alive or drown, where would you say god is in this? This incident happened last night at the happiest place on earth with young parents who tried to grasp the child from the beast's jaws. They watched.

 

Or this incident in May.....http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/wreck-survivors-continue-to-recover-in-local-hospi/nrFwp/

 

How do you justify god in this? Have you had to go through any horrific incidences? And how do you explain this?  I'd love to know. 

 

 

I am very aware of the tragedy in Orlando. My wife and I have been discussing this all morning. It is a horrific tragedy. We cannot even begin to imagine what the parents are going thru today.

 

God did not do this. God did not ordain this tragedy.

 

I mentioned once in a post here about how we lost our twin daughters. It was like being hit by a freight train. I’ve watched friends at a very young age die of cancer. I’ve had two friends who committed suicide. My parents both suffered and died from cancer. Two of my cousins died in a car accident. 

 

Five years ago I was diagnosed with a rare chronic disease called Bronchiectasis. The disease keeps the bronchial passages inflamed thus severely restricting breathing. My doctor says it may have been activated as the result of me working in a classroom for over ten years that was latter found to be infected with black mold. I

 

I’m just like every other person. None of us are immune from sickness, suffering or tragedies.

We all have experienced these unhappy things.

 

I don’t blame God for any of this. This is the way it is in this world.

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No of course, it's Satan, or our sinful nature, or some rib-chop with a taste for apples fault, right? That kid (and million others) truly deserved to be killed by a wild animal and then sentenced to Hell/Annihilation unless "saved", right?

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You go young man! I remember that time of my life. It wasn't all bad. Fight the good fight, put on the full armor of God, and stand.

 

Ignore me, ignore everyone else here, and study what other people say about the Bible!

This is what I was going to say also dude. There was a time when you could not rock my boat when it came to giving up on my belief or faith in god. I had an atheist cousin who simply thought I was 'silly' because no matter how many points he would bring forth, I would would stick up for god with my armor on.

 

Some people can make it through the worst tragedies and still believe. Their faith seems unshakable. Mine fell apart. First, I didn't feel the presence of god in any of the shit I went through for 20 years, one thing after another, with no relief (as much as I prayed) and I certainly didn't see anywhere that he was trying to bring me relief. Then I started investigating whether I believed in a spiritual Santa Claus. Once my somewhat pessimistic personality kicked in and I started studying agnostics and atheist to see why they didn't believe, I could see it was all false and I believed in a lie.

What are you talking about margee Santa Claus is real. Well who gave me all those presents when I was a child, and who ate those cookies? Huh? That's a miracle can't you see that.

 

Santa love you.

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Ironhorse, May I ask you a question please? If your two year old child was snagged by an alligator right before your eyes and drawn into the water to get eaten alive or drown, where would you say god is in this? This incident happened last night at the happiest place on earth with young parents who tried to grasp the child from the beast's jaws. They watched.

 

Or this incident in May.....http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/wreck-survivors-continue-to-recover-in-local-hospi/nrFwp/

 

How do you justify god in this? Have you had to go through any horrific incidences? And how do you explain this? I'd love to know.

 

I am very aware of the tragedy in Orlando. My wife and I have been discussing this all morning. It is a horrific tragedy. We cannot even begin to imagine what the parents are going thru today.

 

God did not do this. God did not ordain this tragedy.

 

I mentioned once in a post here about how we lost our twin daughters. It was like being hit by a freight train. I’ve watched friends at a very young age die of cancer. I’ve had two friends who committed suicide. My parents both suffered and died from cancer. Two of my cousins died in a car accident.

 

Five years ago I was diagnosed with a rare chronic disease called Bronchiectasis. The disease keeps the bronchial passages inflamed thus severely restricting breathing. My doctor says it may have been activated as the result of me working in a classroom for over ten years that was latter found to be infected with black mold. I

 

I’m just like every other person. None of us are immune from sickness, suffering or tragedies.

We all have experienced these unhappy things.

 

I don’t blame God for any of this. This is the way it is in this world.

The rain fall's on the just and unjust.
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Ironhorse, we love you, but you must be the worst apologist ever. Sometimes I think you don't really believe, but are simply having fun playing Devil's Advocate. TrueScotsman is a better apologist.

I'm an apologist because I agree with the majority of modern scholarship which admits that Jesus at least existed?

 

You give an inch here, and people look at it like a m an apologist because you continuously employ arguments used by Christian apologists. For exam

An apologist is someone who uses apologetics. You inform us that we sould read the Gospels first and then Paul. When you do that you read the Gospels into Paul, which is the Christian method. You tell us that Jesus of Nazareth certainly existed, not possibly existed, and that is something Christians do. The only place that Jesus of Nazareth appears, anywhere in the 1st Century, is in the Gospels. Not even the Epistles mention Jesus of Nazareth. I have to debate you like I do any other apologist. You are not here to learn, or to help de-converting or recenty de-converted Christians, but to show us why we're wrong, and that Christianity is realy not that all that bad. You say that I must respect, not just the Christian's right to believe, but that I should respect the Christian beliefs. No Atheist here respects the Christian beliefs, myself included. If any do, then I stand to be corrected. You tell me that you are an Atheist but talk more like a Christian.

No, apologetics comes from a Greek word, which means to "make a defense of."

 

I am not DEFENDING Christianity, I am simply stating the facts as experts in that particular field have been able to deduce using the Historical Critical Method.

 

Where did I say read the gospel's first, link please. Paul was written first, and you shouldn't read the gospels into Paul. Stop with the dishonest representations please.

 

Secular scholars also say that Jesus existed, though that is disputed among the mythicist group which is a minority.

 

Wrong about Jesus only being mentioned in the gospels. Paul mentions not only Jesus and particular events that happened in Israel, but he mentions his relationships with the very disciples in the gospel narrative. You're also leaving out Josephus, but the case can be made even without him.

 

I'm hear to bring some balance to this wonky discussion where people without proper training and knowledge confidently state "facts" that are filled with misinformation and anachronisms. But I guess you think that'll help people deconvert? I think people need substantial answers, not fluff and bullshit.

 

I respect facts and substantial arguments using logic and reason. Even if Christianity is bullshit, it should be represented honestly and accurately, without appealing to fallacious reasoning.

 

If you think I'm a Christian apologist, then frankly you're a moron. I'm not into mysticism or metaphysics either. Work on your reading comprehension, and stop accusing me of being apologist.

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Something that triggers doubt. Once doubt sets in believers begin to question their "beliefs & traditions" and when that happens their faith begins to crumble. If their doubt is serious enough they will begin to search for answers & when that happens their closed minds begin to be receptive to new information & when that happens their faith begins to melt away. Then one day they are posting their de-conversion story on this site.

I remember in my Christian day's doubting doubt, that's like a terrible mental vice grip that I'm free from now.
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Ironhorse, May I ask you a question please? If your two year old child was snagged by an alligator right before your eyes and drawn into the water to get eaten alive or drown, where would you say god is in this? This incident happened last night at the happiest place on earth with young parents who tried to grasp the child from the beast's jaws. They watched.

 

Or this incident in May.....http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/wreck-survivors-continue-to-recover-in-local-hospi/nrFwp/

 

How do you justify god in this? Have you had to go through any horrific incidences? And how do you explain this?  I'd love to know. 

 

 

I am very aware of the tragedy in Orlando. My wife and I have been discussing this all morning. It is a horrific tragedy. We cannot even begin to imagine what the parents are going thru today.

 

God did not do this. God did not ordain this tragedy.

 

I mentioned once in a post here about how we lost our twin daughters. It was like being hit by a freight train. I’ve watched friends at a very young age die of cancer. I’ve had two friends who committed suicide. My parents both suffered and died from cancer. Two of my cousins died in a car accident. 

 

Five years ago I was diagnosed with a rare chronic disease called Bronchiectasis. The disease keeps the bronchial passages inflamed thus severely restricting breathing. My doctor says it may have been activated as the result of me working in a classroom for over ten years that was latter found to be infected with black mold. I

 

I’m just like every other person. None of us are immune from sickness, suffering or tragedies.

We all have experienced these unhappy things.

 

I don’t blame God for any of this. This is the way it is in this world.

 

Thanks for answering this question IH and I am so, so sorry for all that you have had to endure. I wasn't asking you that to be cruel. I genuinely wanted to hear your answer. I am amazed, as I said many times on this site, how some people can hold on to their faith in god and obviously, you are one of them. I will always say this...faith is a wonderful thing to have to help one get through the trials and tribulations in this life. Unfortunately, my died....

 

((hug))

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ironhorse, posted today, 09:43 AM

 

I don’t blame God for any of this. This is the way it is in this world.

 

Finally, you agree with all us poor Atheists! We don't "blame" your god either. When you look at the World, "the way it is", an All Knowing and All Powerful god cannot exist. If any god exists, it either doesn't care about all the unnecessary evil and suffering, is not able to do anything about it, or it must be evil.

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Ironhorse, we love you, but you must be the worst apologist ever. Sometimes I think you don't really believe, but are simply having fun playing Devil's Advocate. TrueScotsman is a better apologist.

I'm an apologist because I agree with the majority of modern scholarship which admits that Jesus at least existed?

 

You give an inch here, and people look at it like a m an apologist because you continuously employ arguments used by Christian apologists. For exam

An apologist is someone who uses apologetics. You inform us that we sould read the Gospels first and then Paul. When you do that you read the Gospels into Paul, which is the Christian method. You tell us that Jesus of Nazareth certainly existed, not possibly existed, and that is something Christians do. The only place that Jesus of Nazareth appears, anywhere in the 1st Century, is in the Gospels. Not even the Epistles mention Jesus of Nazareth. I have to debate you like I do any other apologist. You are not here to learn, or to help de-converting or recenty de-converted Christians, but to show us why we're wrong, and that Christianity is realy not that all that bad. You say that I must respect, not just the Christian's right to believe, but that I should respect the Christian beliefs. No Atheist here respects the Christian beliefs, myself included. If any do, then I stand to be corrected. You tell me that you are an Atheist but talk more like a Christian.

No, apologetics comes from a Greek word, which means to "make a defense of."

 

I am not DEFENDING Christianity, I am simply stating the facts as experts in that particular field have been able to deduce using the Historical Critical Method.

 

Where did I say read the gospel's first, link please. Paul was written first, and you shouldn't read the gospels into Paul. Stop with the dishonest representations please.

 

Secular scholars also say that Jesus existed, though that is disputed among the mythicist group which is a minority.

 

Wrong about Jesus only being mentioned in the gospels. Paul mentions not only Jesus and particular events that happened in Israel, but he mentions his relationships with the very disciples in the gospel narrative. You're also leaving out Josephus, but the case can be made even without him.

 

I'm hear to bring some balance to this wonky discussion where people without proper training and knowledge confidently state "facts" that are filled with misinformation and anachronisms. But I guess you think that'll help people deconvert? I think people need substantial answers, not fluff and bullshit.

 

I respect facts and substantial arguments using logic and reason. Even if Christianity is bullshit, it should be represented honestly and accurately, without appealing to fallacious reasoning.

 

If you think I'm a Christian apologist, then frankly you're a moron. I'm not into mysticism or metaphysics either. Work on your reading comprehension, and stop accusing me of being apologist.

 

 

Thank you! Now I'm sure enough that you're a Christian. Only a Christian puts their faith in Bible Scholars.  If you don't quit talking like a Christian, everyone will have you on ignore.

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