Christians, What Would Make You Leave Your Faith.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Iron horse, I would like to point out that there is a huge difference between being willing to look at the "other side" and being willing to skeptically appraise your own side in light of the evidence.

[Guest]

Iron horse, I would like to point out that there is a huge difference between being willing to look at the "other side" and being willing to skeptically appraise your own side in light of the evidence.

Yes, and that is what faith is not willing or perhaps able to do because there is a DEVOTION to a person (Jesus), not just an acceptance of facts.

 

You need to get to the bottom of your epistemological differences, if you're going to understand why some Christians say that nothing could ever convince them. I never held that position, but understand why some do even though I think that's a really bad way to go about figuring out the truth.

 

Christianity isn't accepted in "light of the evidence," but is a very personal aspect of someone like IronHorse's life that isn't subject to negation for him. We might rail against that, but ultimately it's his existence that he has a decision of what to do with it. It doesn't seem consequential to the cosmos for us to convince him to see it a different way.

 

We've pointed out this fact, and that will likely be beneficial to the lurkers to see his answer which might raise problems for them as it would with most unbiased people.

[Margee]

Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

 

(Bump!)

 

~BAA

 

My answer to this thread's question is nothing.

 

 

That does not mean I am not open to reading or studying "evidence" that attempts to debunk the Christian faith.  

 

Ironhorse, you know I don't come in to the Lions Den very often but this subject is very interesting to me so I'd love to ask some questions if you don't mind.

 

Here's my question. Do you ever see anything that the non-believers are saying as some tiny, wee bit of truth? I ask this in all sincerity.

[bornagainathiest]

Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

 

(Bump!)

 

~BAA

 

 

 

My answer to this thread's question is nothing.

 

That does not mean I am not open to reading or studying "evidence" that attempts to debunk the Christian faith.  

 

And is your mind open to the possibility that there is evidence that does falsify Christianity?

[ironhorse]

 

Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

 

(Bump!)

 

~BAA

 

 

 

My answer to this thread's question is nothing.

 

That does not mean I am not open to reading or studying "evidence" that attempts to debunk the Christian faith.  

 

And is your mind open to the possibility that there is evidence that does falsify Christianity?

 

 

 

Post any evidence you like.

 

My only request is don't make it a hypothetical.

I'm not chasing that rabbit. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

 

(Bump!)

 

~BAA

 

 

 

My answer to this thread's question is nothing.

 

That does not mean I am not open to reading or studying "evidence" that attempts to debunk the Christian faith.  

 

And is your mind open to the possibility that there is evidence that does falsify Christianity?

 

 

 

Post any evidence you like.

 

My only request is don't make it a hypothetical.

I'm not chasing that rabbit. 

 

 

No.  Please answer my question.

 

Is your mind open to the possibility that there exists evidence that does falsify Christianity?

[ironhorse]

 

Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

 

(Bump!)

 

~BAA

 

My answer to this thread's question is nothing.

 

 

That does not mean I am not open to reading or studying "evidence" that attempts to debunk the Christian faith.  

 

Ironhorse, you know I don't come in to the Lions Den very often but this subject is very interesting to me so I'd love to ask some questions if you don't mind.

 

Here's my question. Do you ever see anything that the non-believers are saying as some tiny, wee bit of truth? I ask this in all sincerity.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I have read many things here. I do agree that way too many have experience great pain from their experiences.  I do recognize the hurt and damage done by abusive legalistic churches and false teachers.

These people are misrepresenting Christianity. It has been happening all thru history. 

The NT scriptures warned of many false teachers and their destructive doctrines.

Jesus said many would come to him in the last day claiming all kinds of great works

and he will tell them he never knew them. 

 

Sad to say but they are all over much of so-called religious broadcasting. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Oddly enough, when I was a christian, I would have considered anyone who listened to Bob Dylan to be a false misrepresentation of Christianity. Guess I didn't have the One True Faith, like Ironhorse has.

[Guest]

Oddly enough, when I was a christian, I would have considered anyone who listened to Bob Dylan to be a false misrepresentation of Christianity. Guess I didn't have the One True Faith, like Ironhorse has.

When I was a Christian, I understood that some Christians thought differently than me. But I guess absolutism has erased any possibility for the acceptance of pluralism.

[Guest Furball]

 

Ironhorse, May I ask you a question please? If your two year old child was snagged by an alligator right before your eyes and drawn into the water to get eaten alive or drown, where would you say god is in this? This incident happened last night at the happiest place on earth with young parents who tried to grasp the child from the beast's jaws. They watched.

 

Or this incident in May.....http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/wreck-survivors-continue-to-recover-in-local-hospi/nrFwp/

 

How do you justify god in this? Have you had to go through any horrific incidences? And how do you explain this?  I'd love to know. 

 

 

I am very aware of the tragedy in Orlando. My wife and I have been discussing this all morning. It is a horrific tragedy. We cannot even begin to imagine what the parents are going thru today.

 

God did not do this. God did not ordain this tragedy.

 

I mentioned once in a post here about how we lost our twin daughters. It was like being hit by a freight train. I’ve watched friends at a very young age die of cancer. I’ve had two friends who committed suicide. My parents both suffered and died from cancer. Two of my cousins died in a car accident. 

 

Five years ago I was diagnosed with a rare chronic disease called Bronchiectasis. The disease keeps the bronchial passages inflamed thus severely restricting breathing. My doctor says it may have been activated as the result of me working in a classroom for over ten years that was latter found to be infected with black mold. I

 

I’m just like every other person. None of us are immune from sickness, suffering or tragedies.

We all have experienced these unhappy things.

 

I don’t blame God for any of this. This is the way it is in this world.

 

 

Hello ironhorse. I just wanted to say how sorry I am for you losing your family and friends. I too have suffered horrible and violent deaths of friends and family. I have always struggled to reconcile a god of love who is intimately involved with his creation to allow such horrible evil to go on in the world. I realize this is an age old debate, but it still resonates with me to this day. I hear people who don't even believe in the christian version of god, yet still believe in some type of a god that they believe is loving and kind and benign and I just wonder how they can think this with all the bad in the world. A god presumes to be all-powerful and all knowing. If I was god and I was all powerful and all knowing, I would immediately create peace on earth and use my unlimited power to eradicate all suffering. I just don't understand any of it. Again, I am truly sorry for your loss, and I wish nothing but the best friend. Take care ironhorse. 

[ironhorse]

Oddly enough, when I was a christian, I would have considered anyone who listened to Bob Dylan to be a false misrepresentation of Christianity. Guess I didn't have the One True Faith, like Ironhorse has.

 

 

Can you explain why you felt that way? 

 

If you don't answer within a month, I'm going to post a Dylan video.

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

I've asked you many times to present specific examples of evidence that confirms your Christian faith.  I've done so because you are on record as saying that you see such evidence.  Therefore, your mind is not just open to the possibility that there exists evidence that confirms Christianity - you claim to have seen it.

.

.

.

So, please now answer this question.

 

Is your mind open to the possibility that there exists evidence that falsifies Christianity?

 

Thank you,

 

BAA.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

That's easy, Iron horse. The bible says we are to shun the appearance of evil. It says that god has called us out to be a separate people, a chosen people. It also says that we are to be in the world, but not of the world.

 

In short, whatever is of god we are to dwell on; whatever is of the world we are to shun. Rock and Roll definitely qualifies as "of the world", especially a bleedin' heart hippie like Dylan.

 

Your body is the temple of the holy spirit. This includes your mind. You shouldn't put garbage into god's temple.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

By the way Iron horse, I do appreciate you making more of an effort lately to honestly interact with people here. It's a refreshing change.

 

Now answer BAA's questions!

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

ironhorse, posted today, 09:43 AM

 

I don’t blame God for any of this. This is the way it is in this world.

 

Finally, you agree with all us poor Atheists! We don't "blame" your god either. When you look at the World, "the way it is", an All Knowing and All Powerful god cannot exist. If any god exists, it either doesn't care about all the unnecessary evil and suffering, is not able to do anything about it, or it must be evil.

 

Ironhorse, I too am very sorry to hear once again about your children. I don't remember whether I knew about your bronchiecstasis. What a hard row to go down in all of those things.

 

In #18, from which qadeshet quoted the above, you also said, "God did not ordain this," i.e. an alligator killing a two-year-old child.

 

I must join qadeshet in noting that you have "solved" the classic Problem of Evil by denying that God is all powerful. That's what it means to deny that some event occurs that God does not "ordain." 

 

This is what I suspected, and it's why a while ago I said that you apparently worship a finite, struggling God. There are systems of religious belief that are compatible with what you express here, including most polytheisms. Classical Christianity is not compatible with the stance you have taken. You are witnessing to your faith in something other than the God of classical Christianity.

 

OR -

 

you are using the word "ordain" wrongly. To say that God ordains event P is to say that God, the First Cause of all that is, set in motion the chain of causes that leads to effect P. Since the Christian scriptures also give us an all-knowing God and a God whose will is sovereign, it also gives us a God who decides on the chain of causes that without fail (because God KNOWS the outcome) produces effect P.

 

If your God is NOT the first cause of all that is, then you're not worshiping the God of the Nicene Creed but some lesser god. You are on here as a witness to some other faith than the faith that was once for all handed over to the saints.

[Jeff]

Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

 

(Bump!)

 

~BAA

 

 

 

My answer to this thread's question is nothing.

 

That does not mean I am not open to reading or studying "evidence" that attempts to debunk the Christian faith.

But nothing will change your mind as you've stated above

[Guest]

That's easy, Iron horse. The bible says we are to shun the appearance of evil. It says that god has called us out to be a separate people, a chosen people. It also says that we are to be in the world, but not of the world.

 

In short, whatever is of god we are to dwell on; whatever is of the world we are to shun. Rock and Roll definitely qualifies as "of the world", especially a bleedin' heart hippie like Dylan.

 

Your body is the temple of the holy spirit. This includes your mind. You shouldn't put garbage into god's temple.

Were you a fundamentalist?

[bornagainathiest]

I see that you are online, Ironhorse.

 

The Prof has complimented you on making an effort to honestly interact with us.

 

So, please honestly interact with me by answering this question.

 

Is your mind open to the possibility that there exists evidence that falsifies Christianity?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[ironhorse]

 

Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

 

(Bump!)

 

~BAA

 

 

 

My answer to this thread's question is nothing.

 

That does not mean I am not open to reading or studying "evidence" that attempts to debunk the Christian faith.  

 

And is your mind open to the possibility that there is evidence that does falsify Christianity?

 

 

 

A catch-22?

 

If I say no, then I will be viewed as a narrow minded indoctrinated Christian idiot who refuses to examine any new evidence that contradicts Christianity. 

 

If I say yes, then it will be implied that is reason enough for me NOT TO FULLY TRUST Christianity. The Christian House of Cards falls down. 

 

 

I said:

 

I am open to viewing any new evidence that claims to debunk (or falsify Christianity).

[quinntar]

 

 

Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

 

(Bump!)

 

~BAA

 

 

 

My answer to this thread's question is nothing.

 

That does not mean I am not open to reading or studying "evidence" that attempts to debunk the Christian faith.

And is your mind open to the possibility that there is evidence that does falsify Christianity?

 

A catch-22?

 

If I say no, then I will be viewed as a narrow minded indoctrinated Christian idiot who refuses to examine any new evidence that contradicts Christianity.

 

If I say yes, then it will be implied that is reason enough for me NOT TO FULLY TRUST Christianity. The Christian House of Cards falls down.

 

 

I said:

 

I am open to viewing any new evidence that claims to debunk (or falsify Christianity).

Coool. But what kind of evidence, like an old Norse God showing up in your living room.

 

What would you say? "In Jesus name I cast you out demon!"

 

He he he

[TheRedneckProfessor]

But your pre-determined stance that "nothing" would make you leave your faith belies the idea of you honestly examining said evidence, Ironhorse.

 

Do you see the problem here?

[Jeff]

Nope

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

 

(Bump!)

 

~BAA

 

 

 

My answer to this thread's question is nothing.

 

That does not mean I am not open to reading or studying "evidence" that attempts to debunk the Christian faith.  

 

And is your mind open to the possibility that there is evidence that does falsify Christianity?

 

 

 

A catch-22?

 

If I say no, then I will be viewed as a narrow minded indoctrinated Christian idiot who refuses to examine any new evidence that contradicts Christianity. 

 

If I say yes, then it will be implied that is reason enough for me NOT TO FULLY TRUST Christianity. The Christian House of Cards falls down. 

 

 

I said:

 

I am open to viewing any new evidence that claims to debunk (or falsify Christianity).

 

 

Not my problem, Ironhorse.

 

If you are a truth-loving Christian with nothing to lose and nothing to hide... then simply give us your true answer to my question.

 

Repeating what you said in post # 48 does not answer the question I put to you in post # 54.

 

So, please answer that one and no other.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest]

 

 

 

Can we take this as a formal and official declaration from you that your eyes, ears and mind are totally closed to any evidence that should cause you to renounce your Christian faith?

 

(Bump!)

 

~BAA

 

 

 

My answer to this thread's question is nothing.

 

That does not mean I am not open to reading or studying "evidence" that attempts to debunk the Christian faith.

And is your mind open to the possibility that there is evidence that does falsify Christianity?

 

A catch-22?

 

If I say no, then I will be viewed as a narrow minded indoctrinated Christian idiot who refuses to examine any new evidence that contradicts Christianity.

 

If I say yes, then it will be implied that is reason enough for me NOT TO FULLY TRUST Christianity. The Christian House of Cards falls down.

 

 

I said:

 

I am open to viewing any new evidence that claims to debunk (or falsify Christianity).

Not my problem, Ironhorse.

 

If you are a truth-loving Christian with nothing to lose and nothing to hide... then simply give us your true answer to my question.

 

Repeating what you said in post # 48 does not answer the question I put to you in post # 54.

 

So, please answer that one and no other.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

You guys are relentless. And here I thought I was aggressive.

[qadeshet]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ironhorse, we love you, but you must be the worst apologist ever. Sometimes I think you don't really believe, but are simply having fun playing Devil's Advocate. TrueScotsman is a better apologist.

I'm an apologist because I agree with the majority of modern scholarship which admits that Jesus at least existed?

 

You give an inch here, and people look at it like a m an apologist because you continuously employ arguments used by Christian apologists. For exam

An apologist is someone who uses apologetics. You inform us that we sould read the Gospels first and then Paul. When you do that you read the Gospels into Paul, which is the Christian method. You tell us that Jesus of Nazareth certainly existed, not possibly existed, and that is something Christians do. The only place that Jesus of Nazareth appears, anywhere in the 1st Century, is in the Gospels. Not even the Epistles mention Jesus of Nazareth. I have to debate you like I do any other apologist. You are not here to learn, or to help de-converting or recenty de-converted Christians, but to show us why we're wrong, and that Christianity is realy not that all that bad. You say that I must respect, not just the Christian's right to believe, but that I should respect the Christian beliefs. No Atheist here respects the Christian beliefs, myself included. If any do, then I stand to be corrected. You tell me that you are an Atheist but talk more like a Christian.

No, apologetics comes from a Greek word, which means to "make a defense of."

 

I am not DEFENDING Christianity, I am simply stating the facts as experts in that particular field have been able to deduce using the Historical Critical Method.

 

Where did I say read the gospel's first, link please. Paul was written first, and you shouldn't read the gospels into Paul. Stop with the dishonest representations please.

 

Secular scholars also say that Jesus existed, though that is disputed among the mythicist group which is a minority.

 

Wrong about Jesus only being mentioned in the gospels. Paul mentions not only Jesus and particular events that happened in Israel, but he mentions his relationships with the very disciples in the gospel narrative. You're also leaving out Josephus, but the case can be made even without him.

 

I'm hear to bring some balance to this wonky discussion where people without proper training and knowledge confidently state "facts" that are filled with misinformation and anachronisms. But I guess you think that'll help people deconvert? I think people need substantial answers, not fluff and bullshit.

 

I respect facts and substantial arguments using logic and reason. Even if Christianity is bullshit, it should be represented honestly and accurately, without appealing to fallacious reasoning.

 

If you think I'm a Christian apologist, then frankly you're a moron. I'm not into mysticism or metaphysics either. Work on your reading comprehension, and stop accusing me of being apologist.

Paul did mention Jesus, but which Jesus? The New testament writer's never reproduced enough of the gospels in their letters. In fact they said things the gospel Jesus didn't tell them to say.

The Jesus who supposedly died on a cross and allegedly rose from the dead. The fact that the disciples are specifically referenced ties up the connection rather well.

 

There are MANY theological inconsistencies though between the authors.

Yeah, so can you trust it's veracity.

That's why secular scholars use the historical critical method.

 

 

 

Historical criticism, also known as the historical-critical method or higher criticism, is a branch of literary criticism that investigates the origins of ancient text in order to understand "the world behind the text".^[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_criticism

 

Why do you mention "secular scholars" and leave out the part mentioning literary criticism? Maybe I was wrong and you"re a Liberal Bible Scholar, likeStephanie Fisher, one of Dr James Mcgrath's pit bulls. I have seen your kind of invective from Stephanie. This would explain your anger at my disrespect of Bible Scholars. Bible Scholars are great at studying the Bible, which to me is just as real as Harry Potter. Call me more names please, I love it!