Christians, What Would Make You Leave Your Faith.

[♦ ficino ♦]

OrdinaryClay has been on this site for years, though it's perhaps two years since he's posted. Now he's back, and his MO is the same as ever.

 

I say this in case some of the newer members have not encountered his trolling before.

 

In a nutshell, OC derides "atheists" for being unable to prove to his satisfaction that there is no god. At the same time, his defenses of Christianity at most establish that this, that or the other doctrinal pronouncement just might not be false.

 

OC usually tries to shift the burden of proof. Since he is promoting a system of assertive claims - Christianity of a not-quite-Calvinist stripe - the burden is on him to demonstrate its truth. What he puts out there normally turns out to be circular arguments at best. As you can already see, he is also free with various nitpicking distractor questions and semantic word games.

 

The skeptic only faces the negative burden of casting doubt on the assertive claim/s.

 

 

Will we now have a sentence or two about how the Prof and I are "confused" about the difference between an assertion and a claim?

 

Stay tuned, if you can stomach it. But you may instead decide that it's not worth feeding the troll.

[OrdinaryClay]

No real world situation could make you disbelieve.

 

With you calling the shots on what constitutes any possible real world situation.

 

Since you are not immune to self-deception...

Actually, had you read the exchange you would have seen that I am not the one that used our human subjective bias as a means to disprove something. I simply pointed out the paradox that you find yourself in when you trot it out like some profound new revelation. 

 

We all are subject to our own biases when trying to find out the truth. That does not mean that:

1) Truth does not exist. It does.

2) Or that truth cannot be found. It can.

 

I do however, agree, that we are all biased in some way, and we do self deceive our self.

[OrdinaryClay]

If the god of christianity expects you to know ...

 

You say that as if there is some other God. Do you think there is another?

[OrdinaryClay]

 

Nothing. John 6:68

This verse has to do with eternity. If this is what your faith is reliant on, it is weak. Basically you are probably afraid of hell. You must remember that not all will make it into that 'kingdom'. A lot of christians will say,''lord, lord, we did our best and the lord is going to turn around and say, ''Turn away from me - I never knew you''.

 

You are afraid of hell. It's why most christians stay in the fold.

 

I'm well aware of the hard teachings of the Bible. I'm not a new Christian. 

 

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. 

(Mat 7:13-14)

 

Yes, of course I fear hell, only a fool wouldn't fear a lion even if caged, but if you actually understood Christianity you would know that simply fearing hell is not enough to be a Christian. No, I'm a Christian because I have a deep love for the God of Abraham. I genuinely love Him. It's always been the case as far back as I can remember.

 

AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 

(Mar 12:30)

 

[OrdinaryClay]

I was pointing out that the Bible is quite clear that there are times when GOD hardens people's hearts. Surely, if this is true, then it is possible that it could happen to you. Ergo, your statement that nothing could make you leave your faith is false, because God could.

 

 

Ah, I see. Yes of course God could make me disbelieve. That would go without saying. I am a Christian after all and believe God is all powerful. That is why I use the name OrdinaryClay. That said, do you honestly believe that the OP was asking  if God could make you disbelieve. I doubt it.

 

Now regarding whether God will harden my heart. He can do with me as He pleases. I simply trust Him completely.

 

For the LORD loves justice And does not forsake His godly ones; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off. 

(Psa 37:28)

[OrdinaryClay]

...Christianity of a not-quite-Calvinist stripe - 

 

Huh? I don't know what a "not-quite-Calvinist stripe" is. Although, I'm not a Calvinist, that is for sure.

[TrueFreedom]

 

 

Nothing. John 6:68

 

Nothing? John 12:37-40.

 

Yes, nothing.

 

Just because some don't believe does not mean that everyone disbelieves. I don't understand your point in referring to these verses.

 

It is true that I'm at a point in my faith where no real world situation could make me disbelieve. Will this always be the case. I don't know, but at this point I've heard every imaginable atheist spiel and I've dug very deeply into their questions and found nothing of substance to atheism. Nothing.

 

Let me fix that for you: "I've dug very deeply trenches in order to avoid the devastating implications of into their evidence and logic questions and found nothing of substance to defend my atheism with.

 

[duderonomy]

 

If the god of christianity expects you to know ...

 

You say that as if there is some other God. Do you think there is another?

 

 

Hi OC.  Your god thinks there are other gods.  He says so in Exodus 20:3.

[bornagainathiest]

 

No real world situation could make you disbelieve.

 

With you calling the shots on what constitutes any possible real world situation.

 

Since you are not immune to self-deception...

Actually, had you read the exchange you would have seen that I am not the one that used our human subjective bias as a means to disprove something. I simply pointed out the paradox that you find yourself in when you trot it out like some profound new revelation. 

 

We all are subject to our own biases when trying to find out the truth. That does not mean that:

1) Truth does not exist. It does.

2) Or that truth cannot be found. It can.

 

I do however, agree, that we are all biased in some way, and we do self deceive our self.

 

 

No, OC.  You were wrong.

 

I had read the exchange and I knew that you would not be able to deny that we are all biased in some way.

 

As you confirm.

 

Therefore my point stands.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

If the god of christianity expects you to know ...

 

You say that as if there is some other God. Do you think there is another?

 

You're confusing thinking with believing.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Nothing. John 6:68

This verse has to do with eternity. If this is what your faith is reliant on, it is weak. Basically you are probably afraid of hell. You must remember that not all will make it into that 'kingdom'. A lot of christians will say,''lord, lord, we did our best and the lord is going to turn around and say, ''Turn away from me - I never knew you''.

 

You are afraid of hell. It's why most christians stay in the fold.

 

 but if you actually understood Christianity you would know that simply fearing hell is not enough to be a Christian. 

 

 

Yes.  There's the rub.  We just don't actually understand christianity.  None of us have ever been True Scotsmen.   

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

 

Nothing. John 6:68

This verse has to do with eternity. If this is what your faith is reliant on, it is weak. Basically you are probably afraid of hell. You must remember that not all will make it into that 'kingdom'. A lot of christians will say,''lord, lord, we did our best and the lord is going to turn around and say, ''Turn away from me - I never knew you''.

 

You are afraid of hell. It's why most christians stay in the fold.

 

 but if you actually understood Christianity you would know that simply fearing hell is not enough to be a Christian. 

 

 

Yes.  There's the rub.  We just don't actually understand christianity.  None of us have ever been True Scotsmen.   

 

Correct, it's clear many on here have no idea what Christianity is. Some do, don't get me wrong, but many don't.

 

Scotsman do exist. Honestly.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

If the god of christianity expects you to know ...

 

You say that as if there is some other God. Do you think there is another?

 

 

Hi OC.  Your god thinks there are other gods.  He says so in Exodus 20:3.

 

Yes, and reading this many on here do too. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Nothing. John 6:68

This verse has to do with eternity. If this is what your faith is reliant on, it is weak. Basically you are probably afraid of hell. You must remember that not all will make it into that 'kingdom'. A lot of christians will say,''lord, lord, we did our best and the lord is going to turn around and say, ''Turn away from me - I never knew you''.

 

You are afraid of hell. It's why most christians stay in the fold.

 

I'm well aware of the hard teachings of the Bible. I'm not a new Christian. 

 

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. 

(Mat 7:13-14)

 

Yes, of course I fear hell, only a fool wouldn't fear a lion even if caged, but if you actually understood Christianity you would know that simply fearing hell is not enough to be a Christian. No, I'm a Christian because I have a deep love for the God of Abraham. I genuinely love Him. It's always been the case as far back as I can remember.

 

AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 

(Mar 12:30)

 

 

 

You've genuinely loved God of Abraham as far back as you can remember, OC?

 

That's interesting.

I recall you once stating that you had a profound and life-changing religious experience when you were in your teens.  

Now, assuming your powers of recall go back further than this, are you really saying that you genuinely loved Abraham's God before you were 8 or even 6?  4 maybe?  Earlier than that...?

[bornagainathiest]

 

I was pointing out that the Bible is quite clear that there are times when GOD hardens people's hearts. Surely, if this is true, then it is possible that it could happen to you. Ergo, your statement that nothing could make you leave your faith is false, because God could.

 

 

Ah, I see. Yes of course God could make me disbelieve. That would go without saying. I am a Christian after all and believe God is all powerful. That is why I use the name OrdinaryClay. That said, do you honestly believe that the OP was asking  if God could make you disbelieve. I doubt it.

 

Now regarding whether God will harden my heart. He can do with me as He pleases. I simply trust Him completely.

 

For the LORD loves justice And does not forsake His godly ones; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off. 

(Psa 37:28)

 

 

You err in asking disillusioned if God could make him disbelieve, OC.

 

That was not the question.

 

This thread asks Christians what would make them leave their faith.

 

Since disillusioned is not a Christian, the question does not apply to him.

 

Please check your facts before you hit the 'Post' button.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

OrdinaryClay,

 

If you are so certain that we were not True Scotsman; how can you be equally certain that you are one? We used the same scriptures, heard the same sermons, read the same books, were filled with the same "power" from the same "holy spirit" ... in short, all things being equal.

 

You assert that we weren't the "real" thing; but use the same "evidence" (for lack of a better term) to also assert that the "real" thing exists, and, by implication, you are it.

 

If you'll give yourself some time to genuinely consider this, rather than blowing it off with a witty retort, you might just be able to see the flaw in your own logic.

 

Have a good day,

TheRedneckProfessor

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

 

Nothing. John 6:68

This verse has to do with eternity. If this is what your faith is reliant on, it is weak. Basically you are probably afraid of hell. You must remember that not all will make it into that 'kingdom'. A lot of christians will say,''lord, lord, we did our best and the lord is going to turn around and say, ''Turn away from me - I never knew you''.

 

You are afraid of hell. It's why most christians stay in the fold.

 

I'm well aware of the hard teachings of the Bible. I'm not a new Christian. 

 

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. 

(Mat 7:13-14)

 

Yes, of course I fear hell, only a fool wouldn't fear a lion even if caged, but if you actually understood Christianity you would know that simply fearing hell is not enough to be a Christian. No, I'm a Christian because I have a deep love for the God of Abraham. I genuinely love Him. It's always been the case as far back as I can remember.

 

AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 

(Mar 12:30)

 

 

 

You've genuinely loved God of Abraham as far back as you can remember, OC?

 

That's interesting.

I recall you once stating that you had a profound and life-changing religious experience when you were in your teens.  

Now, assuming your powers of recall go back further than this, are you really saying that you genuinely loved Abraham's God before you were 8 or even 6?  4 maybe?  Earlier than that...?

 

I made a public profession for Christ at 16. Is that what you mean? I don't know what you are talking about to be honest.

 

When I was about 12 I can recall praying to God and feeling he answered my prayers and comforted by Him. 

 

But more to the empty point you seem to be trying to make ... ah ... I don't know what point you are trying to make. One, does not have to have had God in every memory in order to love Him. I have no memories ever in my life of being angry or hateful towards God or of even being indifferent and agnostic.

[Jeff]

This is so exciting

Nope I was wrong. A complete boor it turns out, but necessary for lurkers to see the difference in quality of the arguments presented.

 

Just imagine how wonderful to magically pick the one god who is the right one, and also correctly interpret his horrible idea at instructions, all while in a relationship with that entity where you get to interpret their internal nudgings any way you like as literal direction. All this from the god of all billions upon billions of years and before time.

And you figured it out just right so you can go out and correct the Internet about how wrong it is.

True humility and service to humanity.

Just imagine how wonderful to be that individual among individuals!

 

What a boor

[OrdinaryClay]

OrdinaryClay,

 

If you are so certain that we were not True Scotsman; how can you be equally certain that you are one? We used the same scriptures, heard the same sermons, read the same books, were filled with the same "power" from the same "holy spirit" ... in short, all things being equal.

 

You assert that we weren't the "real" thing; but use the same "evidence" (for lack of a better term) to also assert that the "real" thing exists, and, by implication, you are it.

 

If you'll give yourself some time to genuinely consider this, rather than blowing it off with a witty retort, you might just be able to see the flaw in your own logic.

 

Have a good day,

TheRedneckProfessor

Of course I have considered this many times. I'm not some wandering lost person who stumbled on this site because of angst in my life.

 

First, true Scotsman do exist do they not? Yes, of course they do. They do because there is a definitive definition of what one is. Same with Christianity. If you can't figure it out from there then I can't type you into understanding.

 

Second, One of the absolute requirements to be a Christian is that you must Love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with your whole heart and soul and mind. It is obviously clear from most of the testimonies on this site that people are all about ME. Their testimonies are an endless litany of wrongs inflicted on them by others, family, church members, pastors, the dog catcher, etc, etc ... if not this then it's all about their grandiose feats of self knowledge. Many seem overly impressed with their own minds. Again ME.

 

Christianity is not about us. We exist to worship, adore, glorify and exalt Him. We are important only because He loves us deeply. We are important and valuable beyond measure not because of what or who we are. We are valuable beyond measure because He ascribes value to us and cares for us.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

This is so exciting

Nope I was wrong. A complete boor it turns out, but necessary for lurkers to see the difference in quality of the arguments presented.

 

Just imagine how wonderful to magically pick the one god who is the right one, and also correctly interpret his horrible idea at instructions, all while in a relationship with that entity where you get to interpret their internal nudgings any way you like as literal direction. All this from the god of all billions upon billions of years and before time.

And you figured it out just right so you can go out and correct the Internet about how wrong it is.

True humility and service to humanity.

Just imagine how wonderful to be that individual among individuals!

 

What a boor

 

The ultimate intellectual mistake is to believe truth does not exist.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

Nothing. John 6:68

This verse has to do with eternity. If this is what your faith is reliant on, it is weak. Basically you are probably afraid of hell. You must remember that not all will make it into that 'kingdom'. A lot of christians will say,''lord, lord, we did our best and the lord is going to turn around and say, ''Turn away from me - I never knew you''.

 

You are afraid of hell. It's why most christians stay in the fold.

 

I'm well aware of the hard teachings of the Bible. I'm not a new Christian. 

 

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. 

(Mat 7:13-14)

 

Yes, of course I fear hell, only a fool wouldn't fear a lion even if caged, but if you actually understood Christianity you would know that simply fearing hell is not enough to be a Christian. No, I'm a Christian because I have a deep love for the God of Abraham. I genuinely love Him. It's always been the case as far back as I can remember.

 

AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 

(Mar 12:30)

 

 

 

You've genuinely loved God of Abraham as far back as you can remember, OC?

 

That's interesting.

I recall you once stating that you had a profound and life-changing religious experience when you were in your teens.  

Now, assuming your powers of recall go back further than this, are you really saying that you genuinely loved Abraham's God before you were 8 or even 6?  4 maybe?  Earlier than that...?

 

I made a public profession for Christ at 16. Is that what you mean? I don't know what you are talking about to be honest.

 

No.  That's not it.  

 

When I was about 12 I can recall praying to God and feeling he answered my prayers and comforted by Him. 

 

That's not it either.

 

But more to the empty point you seem to be trying to make ... ah ... I don't know what point you are trying to make.

 

My point?  No.  I was asking a question.  Which you dodged.   Never mind.   Instead, let's take a close look at your words, from which I will make my point.

 

You wrote...  "No, I'm a Christian because I have a deep love for the God of Abraham. I genuinely love Him. It's always been the case as far back as I can remember."    

Very specific and exact words.   You didn't just love any God - you knew that you loved the God of Abraham.  And that  (the exact identity of the God you loved) has always been the case, as far back as you can remember.  Your very first memory of your Mom or Dad (or whoever raised you)  is coeval with you knowing and loving that very same God of the Abraham written about in the scriptures.  You knew that you loved this particular God, years before you could read or write or had picked up a Bible.   And years before you could understand any Bible stories you might have been told.  

 

Point made.

 

One, does not have to have had God in every memory in order to love Him.

 

That was not what you wrote.

 

I have no memories ever in my life of being angry or hateful towards God or of even being indifferent and agnostic.

 

Nor was this.

 

[disillusioned]

 

I was pointing out that the Bible is quite clear that there are times when GOD hardens people's hearts. Surely, if this is true, then it is possible that it could happen to you. Ergo, your statement that nothing could make you leave your faith is false, because God could.

 

 

Ah, I see. Yes of course God could make me disbelieve. That would go without saying. I am a Christian after all and believe God is all powerful. That is why I use the name OrdinaryClay. That said, do you honestly believe that the OP was asking  if God could make you disbelieve. I doubt it.

 

Now regarding whether God will harden my heart. He can do with me as He pleases. I simply trust Him completely.

 

For the LORD loves justice And does not forsake His godly ones; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off. 

(Psa 37:28)

 

 

Now here's the problem OC. If it is possible for God to harden your heart, then either He must do so by directly violating your free will or by presenting you with a set of circumstances and experiences which will lead you to reject your faith. The first option immediately presents major theological problems. The second, while it also leads to many of the same problems, does so less explicitly. So let's assume that God would use circumstances and experiences to cause your heart to harden. Now the OP's question becomes relevant again. Hypothetically, what would those circumstances and experiences be? You have replied "nothing". This is inconsistent with your own faith. Since it is possible for God to harden your heart, then there must exist a set of circumstances and experiences which would cause you to leave your faith. You may not know what they are, but to say that they do not exist is, at this point, blatantly dishonest.

[rjn]

Second, One of the absolute requirements to be a Christian is that you must Love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with your whole heart and soul and mind. It is obviously clear from most of the testimonies on this site that people are all about ME. Their testimonies are an endless litany of wrongs inflicted on them by others, family, church members, pastors, the dog catcher, etc, etc ... if not this then it's all about their grandiose feats of self knowledge. Many seem overly impressed with their own minds. Again ME.

 

Christianity is not about us. We exist to worship, adore, glorify and exalt Him. We are important only because He loves us deeply. We are important and valuable beyond measure not because of what or who we are. We are valuable beyond measure because He ascribes value to us and cares for us.

 

 

Well, of course it's about "Me", because, you know, people tend to live their lives through their own eyes. Who else would anyone's life be about? Sure, there are other people, there might be some form deity, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the individual, no? Even though I subsribe to the idea that ego may very well be an illusion and hindrance, it doesn't change the fact that that vast majority of people on this planet believe that they are someone, and Christians are not an exception to this. Your life is also about "me" and your idea of what and who "God" is. 

 

Btw: if a child is traumatized due to abuse by it's fundie parents or pastor or whoever, would it be totally outrageous if that would elicit some sort of response from that child? Like, the rejection of all the bullshit it's been fed all life that mainly worked as justification for said abuse by pious hypocrits? 

 

Regarding the last paragraph: this is not a good selling point. So God created us to praise him? Well, I guess he truly IS a narcissistic psychopath then. I'm assuming you're a Calvinist, in which case God also created reprobates like me, only to have us punished for eternity, because that too, is proof of the glory of God, is it not? 

[♦ ficino ♦]

My memory may be faulty, but as I recall, perhaps two years ago, Bhim had written something about Hinduism in India and about how he thought it wrong for Christian missionaries to go there and try to convert people.

 

OrdinaryClay then posted a long screed about demons and their activities in India or in the lives of Hindus.

 

OrdinaryClay's screed involved fallacious reasoning, the details of which I forget. Perhaps, the fallacy was Begging the Question. BAA may know where to recover the thread.

 

I and others called OrdinaryClay on this. His response was to say that we were "confused," that there was no question begging in what he wrote because he was not making an argument.

 

Bwa ha ha!

 

We then jumped on that last claim or assertion or utterance or vocalization or whatever it was that OrdinaryClay may choose to call the string of words that he wrote.

 

Of course OrdinaryClay was making an argument. That's what we do in the Den. It's no accident that the word "logos" in ancient Greek rhetoric and philosophy can be translated as "speech, word, discourse, argument" - depending on context. There are many kinds of arguments. When we seek to convince people of something, we do it by argumentation. An argument need not be expressed in a formal, deductive system. But it can be analyzed and standardized as that by someone who is receiving the speech.

 

That was a typical example of OrdinaryClay's attempt to distract by playing with semantics. His semantic game will often consist of his picking one of a number of senses of a term and claiming that it alone was operative in the earlier context. When there were no markers of such a restricted semantic field in the earlier context.

 

Meanwhile, it remains the case that OrdinaryClay both cannot demonstrate that his religious views are likely to be true AND will not even set forth parameters under which they could be falsified. The result is that a good deal of OC's discourse on here amounts to chat, w/ a rather noxious tone, about pseudo-questions.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Regarding the last paragraph: this is not a good selling point. So God created us to praise him? Well, I guess he truly IS a narcissistic psychopath then. I'm assuming you're a Calvinist, in which case God also created reprobates like me, only to have us punished for eternity, because that too, is proof of the glory of God, is it not? 

A number of us, including Centauri when he was on here, have urged that OC's position collapses into Calvinism. OC himself believes in Molinism and has praised the rehabilitation of that Jesuitical approach at the hands of Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig.

 

I think Molinism equivocates, but that's a different topic and I have no inclination to waste time rehashing it.