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The Dead Sea Scrolls


SkepticalDaniel

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This is something today that still stumps me. I know that Christians like to say that these scrolls found in 1947 are undeniable proof of the original manuscripts, however, it seems that there are problems with these documents such as differences between the Exodus stories.

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This is something today that still stumps me. I know that Christians like to say that these scrolls found in 1947 are undeniable proof of the original manuscripts, however, it seems that there are problems with these documents such as differences between the Exodus stories.

 

SkepticalDaniel. These belonged to the Qumran group. I think that this group may have been connected with the Jerusalem group. The Teacher Of Righteousness may have been the origin of "Jesus".

Thanks. good thought.

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This is something today that still stumps me. I know that Christians like to say that these scrolls found in 1947 are undeniable proof of the original manuscripts, however, it seems that there are problems with these documents such as differences between the Exodus stories.

SkepticalDaniel. These belonged to the Qumran group. I think that this group may have been connected with the Jerusalem group. The Teacher Of Righteousness may have been the origin of "Jesus".

Thanks. good thought.

Still, the DSS, though fascinating still stump me. The contain the Book of Enoch, which isn't canonical in the Bible, and which the Book of Jude cites from, mind you.

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This is something today that still stumps me. I know that Christians like to say that these scrolls found in 1947 are undeniable proof of the original manuscripts, however, it seems that there are problems with these documents such as differences between the Exodus stories.

SkepticalDaniel. These belonged to the Qumran group. I think that this group may have been connected with the Jerusalem group. The Teacher Of Righteousness may have been the origin of "Jesus".

Thanks. good thought.

Still, the DSS, though fascinating still stump me. The contain the Book of Enoch, which isn't canonical in the Bible, and which the Book of Jude cites from, mind you.

 

 

SkepticalDaniel, who do you stress over this stuff? If you know that the Bible Hell is no more real than the Muslim Hell, why worry?

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What exactly is it that they claim regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls?

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What exactly is it that they claim regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls?

 

I'm pretty sure we'll get to this on the "Did Jesus Exist?" Thread. Just make up a good question and ask it there. How about that?

Cheers.

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What exactly is it that they claim regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls?

 

I'm pretty sure we'll get to this on the "Did Jesus Exist?" Thread. Just make up a good question and ask it there. How about that?

Cheers.

 

 

Why so cryptic? I don't have a clue beyond the fact that fundies like to claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls confirms their position, so why not give me an answer if you've got one?

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What exactly is it that they claim regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls?

 

I'm pretty sure we'll get to this on the "Did Jesus Exist?" Thread. Just make up a good question and ask it there. How about that?

Cheers.

 

 

Why so cryptic? I don't have a clue beyond the fact that fundies like to claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls confirms their position, so why not give me an answer if you've got one?

 

 

rjn, not being cryptic. We just haven't gotten to it yet. If someone else wants to answer, great. Then I'll put it over there. No problem.unsure.png

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What exactly is it that they claim regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Either claim it's the original manuscripts of the Bible, or claims of Jesus.

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What exactly is it that they claim regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls?

I'm pretty sure we'll get to this on the "Did Jesus Exist?" Thread. Just make up a good question and ask it there. How about that?

Cheers.

Why so cryptic? I don't have a clue beyond the fact that fundies like to claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls confirms their position, so why not give me an answer if you've got one?

rjn, not being cryptic. We just haven't gotten to it yet. If someone else wants to answer, great. Then I'll put it over there. No problem.unsure.png

Don't worry about me. I'm just curious, that's all.

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At one point you were worried a little, I think. Glad your doing well.

 

Know Thyself.

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SkepticalDaniel, you may find the Nag Hammadi Library Codex even more interresting. Cheers.

 

The Nag Hammadi Library
Codex Index

Codex I (The Jung Codex)

  1. The Prayer of the Apostle Paul
  2. The Apocryphon (Secret Book) of James
  3. The Gospel of Truth*
  4. The Treatise on the Resurrection
  5. The Tripartite Tractate
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DannyBoy, if somebody were to discover a manuscript of The Odyssey, handwritten by Homer himself, would it bother you that some claimed it proof that Zeus existed?  If not, then why should the Dead Sea scrolls worry you?

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SkepticalDaniel; quit worrying so much. You're gonna get high bloodpressure like me.

 

DannyBoy, if somebody were to discover a manuscript of The Odyssey, handwritten by Homer himself, would it bother you that some claimed it proof that Zeus existed?  If not, then why should the Dead Sea scrolls worry you?

 

Not if they're Myths Professor.

 

Know Thyself

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DannyBoy, if somebody were to discover a manuscript of The Odyssey, handwritten by Homer himself, would it bother you that some claimed it proof that Zeus existed?  If not, then why should the Dead Sea scrolls worry you?

 

We had a thunderstorm here yesterday. You're implying that WASN'T Zeus?

 

Speaking of Zeus - in all seriousness - aren't there a few legit comparisons that can be made between him and YHWH/El? I think there's some line that's attributed to both of them that's more or less verbatim. Something to do with child sacrifice and how it never entered the mind of either.

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What exactly is it that they claim regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Either claim it's the original manuscripts of the Bible, or claims of Jesus.
While deconverting, I listened to an audiobook by one of the embers of the team that worked on these scrolls.

I was hoping to hear something that would strengthen my weakening faith.

There was no direct mention of anything about Jesus if I recall correctly. I enjoyed the book but found little to help or hurt my faith other than to realize their mentality was on a short timeline for the world ending and such.

Some crazy intense groups back then just like so many early Christian sects.

I guess it did highlight how silly my modern church looked after seeing how they lived their crazy belief.

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What exactly is it that they claim regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Either claim it's the original manuscripts of the Bible, or claims of Jesus.
While deconverting, I listened to an audiobook by one of the embers of the team that worked on these scrolls.

I was hoping to hear something that would strengthen my weakening faith.

There was no direct mention of anything about Jesus if I recall correctly. I enjoyed the book but found little to help or hurt my faith other than to realize their mentality was on a short timeline for the world ending and such.

Some crazy intense groups back then just like so many early Christian sects.

I guess it did highlight how silly my modern church looked after seeing how they lived their crazy belief.

 

 

Correct, Jeff. It mentions a Teacher of Righteousness. This may have been the origin of Christianity.

 

Know Thyself!

Be Prudent!

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I saw some fundie claim that the DSS and the KJV are "verbatim". Now, what would lead him to say something like that? My guess is, that his definition of "verbatim" is quite different from what it actually means.

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Some of the scrolls contain texts that claim to be written (or dictated) by God, and yet no one is insisting that these are "holy scriptures" and need to be included in the Bible. 

 

Robert Eisenman has some theories that the texts do obliquely refer to Paul and James, but not Jesus. 

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"Among the Scrolls are partial or complete copies of every book in the Hebrew Bible (except the book of Esther). About a dozen copies of some of these holy books were written in ancient paleo-Hebrew (the script of the First Temple era, not the standard script of the time)."

 

"Many biblical manuscripts closely resemble the Masoretic Text, the accepted text of the Hebrew Bible from the second half of the first millennium ce until today. This similarity is quite remarkable, considering that the Qumran Scrolls are over a thousand years older than previously identified biblical manuscripts."

 

http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/home

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"Among the Scrolls are partial or complete copies of every book in the Hebrew Bible (except the book of Esther). About a dozen copies of some of these holy books were written in ancient paleo-Hebrew (the script of the First Temple era, not the standard script of the time)."

 

"Many biblical manuscripts closely resemble the Masoretic Text, the accepted text of the Hebrew Bible from the second half of the first millennium ce until today. This similarity is quite remarkable, considering that the Qumran Scrolls are over a thousand years older than previously identified biblical manuscripts."

 

http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/home

 

Know Yourself!

 

Hi Friend Ironhorse! Thanks for your contribution.

 

The interresting thing about the Gnostics, who collected and preserved these Texts, is that they considered the "god' of the OT was not the One True God, but was instead the Demiurge.

 

The Demiurge:

 

In the Platonic, Neopythagorean, Middle Platonic, and Neoplatonic schools of philosophy, the demiurge (/ˈdɛmiˌɜːr/) is an artisan-like figure responsible for the fashioning and maintenance of the physical universe. The term was subsequently adopted by the Gnostics. Although a fashioner, the demiurge is not necessarily the same as the creator figure in the familiar monotheistic sense, because both the demiurge itself plus the material from which the demiurge fashions the universe are considered either uncreated and eternal, or the product of some other being, depending on the system.

 Tht Nag Hammadi Library:

The Nag Hammadi Library, a collection of thirteen ancient books (called "codices") containing over fifty texts, was discovered in upper Egypt in 1945. This immensely important discovery includes a large number of primary "Gnostic Gospels" – texts once thought to have been entirely destroyed during the early Christian struggle to define "orthodoxy" – scriptures such as the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, and the Gospel of Truth. The discovery and translation of the Nag Hammadi library, initially completed in the 1970's, has provided impetus to a major re-evaluation of early Christian history and the nature of Gnosticism.  codices.jpg

For an introduction to the Nag Hammadi discovery and the texts in this ancient library, we offer several resources. First, read an excerpt from Elaine Pagels' excellent popular introduction to the Nag Hammadi texts, The Gnostic Gospels. Then, for an overview of the Gnostic scriptures and a discussion of ancient Gnosis, read this excerpt from Dr. Marvin Meyer's introduction to The Gnostic Bible. For another brief general overview, we offer an Introduction to Gnosticism and the Nag Hammadi Library by Lance Owens.

 

Thanks again ironhorse! Happy to see you here! Cheers!

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What exactly is it that they claim regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Either claim it's the original manuscripts of the Bible, or claims of Jesus.

 

It's all the mythology of the region. Nothing more, nothing less. The only reason it's hard for you to recognize this is that you live in a Xtian culture. Would you feel the same way about Zeus (Greek mythology), obsessing over whether he's real?

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"Among the Scrolls are partial or complete copies of every book in the Hebrew Bible (except the book of Esther). About a dozen copies of some of these holy books were written in ancient paleo-Hebrew (the script of the First Temple era, not the standard script of the time)."

 

"Many biblical manuscripts closely resemble the Masoretic Text, the accepted text of the Hebrew Bible from the second half of the first millennium ce until today. This similarity is quite remarkable, considering that the Qumran Scrolls are over a thousand years older than previously identified biblical manuscripts."

 

http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/home

 

Know Yourself!

 

Hi Friend Ironhorse! Thanks for your contribution.

 

The interresting thing about the Gnostics, who collected and preserved these Texts, is that they considered the "god' of the OT was not the One True God, but was instead the Demiurge.

 

The Demiurge:

 

In the Platonic, Neopythagorean, Middle Platonic, and Neoplatonic schools of philosophy, the demiurge (/ˈdɛmiˌɜːrdʒ/) is an artisan-like figure responsible for the fashioning and maintenance of the physical universe. The term was subsequently adopted by the Gnostics. Although a fashioner, the demiurge is not necessarily the same as the creator figure in the familiar monotheistic sense, because both the demiurge itself plus the material from which the demiurge fashions the universe are considered either uncreated and eternal, or the product of some other being, depending on the system.

 Tht Nag Hammadi Library:

The Nag Hammadi Library, a collection of thirteen ancient books (called "codices") containing over fifty texts, was discovered in upper Egypt in 1945. This immensely important discovery includes a large number of primary "Gnostic Gospels" – texts once thought to have been entirely destroyed during the early Christian struggle to define "orthodoxy" – scriptures such as the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, and the Gospel of Truth. The discovery and translation of the Nag Hammadi library, initially completed in the 1970's, has provided impetus to a major re-evaluation of early Christian history and the nature of Gnosticism.  codices.jpg

For an introduction to the Nag Hammadi discovery and the texts in this ancient library, we offer several resources. First, read an excerpt from Elaine Pagels' excellent popular introduction to the Nag Hammadi texts, The Gnostic Gospels. Then, for an overview of the Gnostic scriptures and a discussion of ancient Gnosis, read this excerpt from Dr. Marvin Meyer's introduction to The Gnostic Bible. For another brief general overview, we offer an Introduction to Gnosticism and the Nag Hammadi Library by Lance Owens.

 

Thanks again ironhorse! Happy to see you here! Cheers!

 

 

 

 

"While the Nag Hammadi library was an exciting find, the only "value" in the Nag Hammadi library is that the scrolls give us insight into what early "heretics" taught and practiced."

http://www.gotquestions.org/Nag-Hammadi.html

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GotQuestions? Really, IH? Come on, you can do better than that. 

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GotQuestions? Really, IH? Come on, you can do better than that. 

 

My reply and the link was directed in part to what quadeshet stated:

 

"The interresting thing about the Gnostics, who collected and preserved these Texts, is that they considered the "god' of the OT was not the One True God, but was instead the Demiurge."

This Demiurge was considered an inferior. Imperfect, lesser,evil god. This is just one of the reasons the Gnostics were considered heretics.

 

From the link I posted:

 

“The Apostle Philip did not write the gospel of Philip. The Apostle Peter did not write the acts of Peter. The gospel of Thomas was not written by the Apostle Thomas. These scrolls were fraudulently written in their names in order to give them legitimacy in the early church. Thankfully, the early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognizing these Gnostic scrolls as fraudulent forgeries that espouse false doctrines about Jesus Christ, salvation, God, and every other crucial Christian truth. There are countless contradictions between the Nag Hammadi library and the Bible.”

http://www.gotquestions.org/Nag-Hammadi.html

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