Ironhorse & Originalclay Are You Still Afraid Of Hell?

[quinntar]

This is open to Ex-Christians and Christians to discuss the topic of hell.

[sdelsolray]

Childhood indoctrination by trusted adults, followed by peer pressure and intellectual and emotional laziness explains it quite simply, at least for most who are infected with the fear of hell.

[quinntar]

Childhood indoctrination by trusted adults, followed by peer pressure and intellectual and emotional laziness explains it quite simply, at least for most who are infected with the fear of hell.

It took me years to lose my fear of hell, nasty stuff.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Hell No.

[florduh]

Christians are either

 

1. Afraid of Hell and bow to their god in fear of his righteous punishment

 

2. Not afraid of Hell because they are washed in the blood of Jesus and believe they are exempt

 

3. Not afraid of Hell because they have looked for and found (!) loopholes to explain away the verses about eternal torment and all that shit.

 

Christians will deny it but fear of unspeakable eternal torment from their loving god is the primary recruitment tool of the religion. Turn or burn, baby!

[quinntar]

Christians are either

 

1. Afraid of Hell and bow to their god in fear of his righteous punishment

 

2. Not afraid of Hell because they are washed in the blood of Jesus and believe they are exempt

 

3. Not afraid of Hell because they have looked for and found (!) loopholes to explain away the verses about eternal torment and all that shit.

 

Christians will deny it but fear of unspeakable eternal torment from their loving god is the primary recruitment tool of the religion. Turn or burn, baby!

lol, that's very funny

[ironhorse]

No, I'm not afraid of hell. I can't do anything to get there. I'm free from it.

That is settled.

 

I did hear fire and brimstone sermons when I was young. No problem with that. Jesus warned about hell many times.

 

But it was not this threat of hell that drove me to accept Christ. Sermons about heaven is what drove me to Jesus.

I just loved the message of a place where people would live forever and be a part of God's universal kingdom. I understood around the age of 10 what Jesus' death and resurrection was about, but it was heaven, not fear of hell that made the message so appealing.

 

I remember when I was around ten a preacher said he liked Pepsi Cola. It was refreshing and good, he just believed he would be able to have a cold bottle of Pepsi in heaven. 

 

Years later his statement had me doing more study and reading books about heaven, 

[quinntar]

No, I'm not afraid of hell. I can't do anything to get there. I'm free from it.

That is settled.

 

I did hear fire and brimstone sermons when I was young. No problem with that. Jesus warned about hell many times.

 

But it was not this threat of hell that drove me to accept Christ. Sermons about heaven is what drove me to Jesus.

I just loved the message of a place where people would live forever and be a part of God's universal kingdom. I understood around the age of 10 what Jesus' death and resurrection was about, but it was heaven, not fear of hell that made the message so appealing.

 

I remember when I was around ten a preacher said he liked Pepsi Cola. It was refreshing and good, he just believed he would be able to have a cold bottle of Pepsi in heaven.

 

Years later his statement had me doing more study and reading books about heaven,

What makes you think hell exists, is the bible your only source material? What do you think about people going there.

 

Can you do nothing to lose your salvation? Has something happen to you, to convince you I mean.

[midniterider]

I'm not afraid of hell either.

[quinntar]

I'm not afraid of hell either.

lol, yeah well one of us had to say it.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ironhorse,

 

Do you consider me to be your friend?

 

TRP

[ironhorse]

Ironhorse,

 

Do you consider me to be your friend?

 

TRP

 

 

Not a friend but an acquaintance, I don’t mean that in a negative way.

My only knowledge I have of you is what I have learned about you online. I don’t think you could consider me a friend for the same reason.

At present out views on the Christian faith are very different but we do share in our fondness for the champions of all sodas, Cheerwine.

Which is a very positive note. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Ironhorse,

 

Do you consider me to be your friend?

 

TRP

 

 

Not a friend but an acquaintance, I don’t mean that in a negative way.

My only knowledge I have of you is what I have learned about you online. I don’t think you could consider me a friend for the same reason.

At present out views on the Christian faith are very different but we do share in our fondness for the champions of all sodas, Cheerwine.

Which is a very positive note. 

 

I appreciate your honesty and would like to repay in kind.

 

When I first started coming into The Lion's Den a few years ago, I had a tendency to go straight for the throat when it came to dealing with the christians here.  Heavy doses of biting sarcasm spiced with shameless ad hominems were served up pretty much a la carte.

 

That changed in 2014.  It changed because I responded to one of your posts with genuine anger.  I wasn't actually angry at you; I was angry about something else and simply directed my aggression toward you.  I immediately felt ashamed of myself.  As I looked back over the interactions you and I had had prior to that day, I realized that, although you didn't always answer questions and sometimes dodged, you had, nonetheless, always treated me cordially and with courtesy. Yet, I had been a complete muck-savage toward you since you first showed up here.

 

I posted an apology on the same thread where I had attacked you.  You didn't respond to it, that I recall; but I've often thought about that day and the way I had been.  Since then, I've tried to become a bit of a kinder, gentler Prof.  I've tried to make it a habit to genuinely listen to what others have to say and give myself time to reflect and formulate a clear and lucid response.  I now try to base my interactions on logic, reason, and common sense, rather than brute force and ignorance.  This behavior has even spilled out into my real life and I find I am much better at communication, problem solving, and critical thinking; because the sincere desire to make amends for attacking you has made me readjust my way of thinking and acting.  

 

In short, I am a better human because of the small, yet significant, impact you have made.  For my part, I consider you my friend.

 

The question is, though, how can heaven be so blissful for you, knowing that some who called you "friend" is in hell?  

[ironhorse]

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

Do you consider me to be your friend?

 

TRP

 

 

Not a friend but an acquaintance, I don’t mean that in a negative way.

My only knowledge I have of you is what I have learned about you online. I don’t think you could consider me a friend for the same reason.

At present out views on the Christian faith are very different but we do share in our fondness for the champions of all sodas, Cheerwine.

Which is a very positive note. 

 

I appreciate your honesty and would like to repay in kind.

 

When I first started coming into The Lion's Den a few years ago, I had a tendency to go straight for the throat when it came to dealing with the christians here.  Heavy doses of biting sarcasm spiced with shameless ad hominems were served up pretty much a la carte.

 

That changed in 2014.  It changed because I responded to one of your posts with genuine anger.  I wasn't actually angry at you; I was angry about something else and simply directed my aggression toward you.  I immediately felt ashamed of myself.  As I looked back over the interactions you and I had had prior to that day, I realized that, although you didn't always answer questions and sometimes dodged, you had, nonetheless, always treated me cordially and with courtesy. Yet, I had been a complete muck-savage toward you since you first showed up here.

 

I posted an apology on the same thread where I had attacked you.  You didn't respond to it, that I recall; but I've often thought about that day and the way I had been.  Since then, I've tried to become a bit of a kinder, gentler Prof.  I've tried to make it a habit to genuinely listen to what others have to say and give myself time to reflect and formulate a clear and lucid response.  I now try to base my interactions on logic, reason, and common sense, rather than brute force and ignorance.  This behavior has even spilled out into my real life and I find I am much better at communication, problem solving, and critical thinking; because the sincere desire to make amends for attacking you has made me readjust my way of thinking and acting.  

 

In short, I am a better human because of the small, yet significant, impact you have made.  For my part, I consider you my friend.

 

The question is, though, how can heaven be so blissful for you, knowing that some who called you "friend" is in hell?  

 

 

 

TheRedneckProfessor,

 

When I first read your reply I had to just go off for a while and think.

 

You were so heartfelt and genuine in expressing your thoughts it took me time to ponder it and assemble my response.

 

Thank you so much for considering me as a friend. Stating that publically for all to see here speaks volumes about you.

 

As I was thinking about what you wrote several things came to mind.

 

One was how I misspelled “Cheerwine” on my profile. You quickly pointed out my error. I learned that as being sons of the South we did have some things in common.

 

You also told me once not to let the aggressive replies to my post get me down. Telling me that when you did really helped me.

 

Also, concerning our back and forth in 20014, I searched my private messages and that occurred in August.

I did accept your apology but I did so in a private message. I can see now that was a big mistake on my part. I should have posted it for all to see. Please accept my apology.

 

This morning I went to a dictionary and looked up acquaintance.  In describing the definition it said that an “acquaintance” often becomes a friend.

 

If I may answer your question again,

Yes, I do consider you a friend. You have also impacted my life.

 

 

Your question: The question is, though, how can heaven be so blissful for you, knowing that some who called you "friend" is in hell? 

I have thought about that before and the only way I have reconciled that issue is that God is just and fair. Trying to think about details on how God will accomplish this would drive me crazy. I can only trust that he will.

[quinntar]

 

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

Do you consider me to be your friend?

 

TRP

 

Not a friend but an acquaintance, I don’t mean that in a negative way.

My only knowledge I have of you is what I have learned about you online. I don’t think you could consider me a friend for the same reason.

At present out views on the Christian faith are very different but we do share in our fondness for the champions of all sodas, Cheerwine.

Which is a very positive note.

I appreciate your honesty and would like to repay in kind.

 

When I first started coming into The Lion's Den a few years ago, I had a tendency to go straight for the throat when it came to dealing with the christians here. Heavy doses of biting sarcasm spiced with shameless ad hominems were served up pretty much a la carte.

 

That changed in 2014. It changed because I responded to one of your posts with genuine anger. I wasn't actually angry at you; I was angry about something else and simply directed my aggression toward you. I immediately felt ashamed of myself. As I looked back over the interactions you and I had had prior to that day, I realized that, although you didn't always answer questions and sometimes dodged, you had, nonetheless, always treated me cordially and with courtesy. Yet, I had been a complete muck-savage toward you since you first showed up here.

 

I posted an apology on the same thread where I had attacked you. You didn't respond to it, that I recall; but I've often thought about that day and the way I had been. Since then, I've tried to become a bit of a kinder, gentler Prof. I've tried to make it a habit to genuinely listen to what others have to say and give myself time to reflect and formulate a clear and lucid response. I now try to base my interactions on logic, reason, and common sense, rather than brute force and ignorance. This behavior has even spilled out into my real life and I find I am much better at communication, problem solving, and critical thinking; because the sincere desire to make amends for attacking you has made me readjust my way of thinking and acting.

 

In short, I am a better human because of the small, yet significant, impact you have made. For my part, I consider you my friend.

 

The question is, though, how can heaven be so blissful for you, knowing that some who called you "friend" is in hell?

 

TheRedneckProfessor,

 

When I first read your reply I had to just go off for a while and think.

 

You were so heartfelt and genuine in expressing your thoughts it took me time to ponder it and assemble my response.

 

Thank you so much for considering me as a friend. Stating that publically for all to see here speaks volumes about you.

 

As I was thinking about what you wrote several things came to mind.

 

One was how I misspelled “Cheerwine” on my profile. You quickly pointed out my error. I learned that as being sons of the South we did have some things in common.

 

You also told me once not to let the aggressive replies to my post get me down. Telling me that when you did really helped me.

 

Also, concerning our back and forth in 20014, I searched my private messages and that occurred in August.

I did accept your apology but I did so in a private message. I can see now that was a big mistake on my part. I should have posted it for all to see. Please accept my apology.

 

This morning I went to a dictionary and looked up acquaintance. In describing the definition it said that an “acquaintance” often becomes a friend.

 

If I may answer your question again,

Yes, I do consider you a friend. You have also impacted my life.

 

 

Your question: The question is, though, how can heaven be so blissful for you, knowing that some who called you "friend" is in hell?

I have thought about that before and the only way I have reconciled that issue is that God is just and fair. Trying to think about details on how God will accomplish this would drive me crazy. I can only trust that he will.

Ironhorse could you consider that the bible writers may have had a dim view of hell and heaven and you should not put complete trust in partial information, and maybe gain some more insight yourself

 

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

So how much more darkly do you see compared to those you believe can see, but say they don't.

[quinntar]

Here is another view of hell

 

Jud 1: 10-13

 

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

 

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

 

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

 

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

Who knows, maybe jude thought they'd be turned back into suns

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ironhorse,

 

You say that god is just and fair.  I also used to believe that; I believed that god's justice was also tempered by mercy, hence christ's atoning sacrifice.  But I'd like you to consider whether god's justice really is just--whether he really is fair.

 

It has been estimated that some 20 million people died under the ruthless hand of Josef Stalin; 50 million under Mao Tse-tung.  We could also discuss Hitler, Ratko Mladic, Pol Pot and many others.  These deranged men were at the helm of some of the most brutal regimes in history; responsible for some of the most hideous atrocities ever committed.  Genocide, rape, systematic murder... "crimes against humanity" doesn't even begin to describe the insane havoc wrought upon the pages of humanity by these men and their underlings.

 

For their crimes, for their sins, the justice god has prescribed is eternity in hell.

 

This is the same "justice" god would mete out to me--a simple son of The South, a lover of Cheerwine... a friend of yours.

 

Is this truly "just"?  Is it really "fair"?  That I should suffer the same fate as the butcher of the Jews?  That I should spend eternity with the architects of genocide, the progenitors of mass rape?  

 

Is this justice tempered by mercy?

 

SINcerely,

TheRedneckProfessor

[Lyra]

I agree with the Redneck Professor on the subject of hell, from a philosophical standpoint if we were only discussing the morality and not whether an afterlife hell existed for real. 

 

I don't think that a real, literal afterlife hell is scientifically sound. However, I do believe that heaven and hell are real in the sense that it's the reality that you create for yourself, while you're ALIVE.

 

If you treat others kindly, use your passions and talents to make the world a better place, and act in an ethical manner, then along the way you'll naturally find deep, meaningful human connection, you'll have fun, adventure, great experiences, etc. and that will be "heaven." But if you treat others like shit, have a worldview that involves stepping on others, participate in things that cause suffering, etc. then you will be surrounded by equally nasty people, and the harm that you've done will come back to bite you - this will be your "hell."

 

Of course, we also have the "Problem of Pain" -- people who are in bad situations like extreme poverty, born in a bad country, abuse, poor health/deformity etc through no fault of their own. But if everybody believed in helping others and doing the ethical things, then most of those problems wouldn't exist (i.e. no corrupt leaders depriving people of their rights or people who abuse their children). Oh, and a lot of the problems of the world--especially in places where people have limited human rights--are caused by religious extremism. 

[rjn]

Ironhorse,

 

You say that god is just and fair.  I also used to believe that; I believed that god's justice was also tempered by mercy, hence christ's atoning sacrifice.  But I'd like you to consider whether god's justice really is just--whether he really is fair.

 

It has been estimated that some 20 million people died under the ruthless hand of Josef Stalin; 50 million under Mao Tse-tung.  We could also discuss Hitler, Ratko Mladic, Pol Pot and many others.  These deranged men were at the helm of some of the most brutal regimes in history; responsible for some of the most hideous atrocities ever committed.  Genocide, rape, systematic murder... "crimes against humanity" doesn't even begin to describe the insane havoc wrought upon the pages of humanity by these men and their underlings.

 

For their crimes, for their sins, the justice god has prescribed is eternity in hell.

 

This is the same "justice" god would mete out to me--a simple son of The South, a lover of Cheerwine... a friend of yours.

 

Is this truly "just"?  Is it really "fair"?  That I should suffer the same fate as the butcher of the Jews?  That I should spend eternity with the architects of genocide, the progenitors of mass rape?  

 

Is this justice tempered by mercy?

 

SINcerely,

TheRedneckProfessor

 

I think IH has implied more than once that he's leaning towards annihilationism, but you already know how your run of the mill-fundy (No IH, I don't count you among them. You're a nice chap as far as I'm concerned) would answer your question: Yes, you deserve eternal punishment, regardless of the gravity of your "sins", God knows best, praise the Lord. Those people can't be reasoned with, they're delusional cunts.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I think IH has implied more than once that he's leaning towards annihilationism, but you already know how your run of the mill-fundy (No IH, I don't count you among them. You're a nice chap as far as I'm concerned) would answer your question: Yes, you deserve eternal punishment, regardless of the gravity of your "sins", God knows best, praise the Lord. Those people can't be reasoned with, they're delusional cunts.

 

Let's see what Ironhorse has to say.  If he wants to discuss god's ways not being our ways, we'll discuss it; if not, then we'll get back to it.  He might want to go in a different direction.

 

Also, some of them can be reasoned with.

[bornagainathiest]

 

I think IH has implied more than once that he's leaning towards annihilationism, but you already know how your run of the mill-fundy (No IH, I don't count you among them. You're a nice chap as far as I'm concerned) would answer your question: Yes, you deserve eternal punishment, regardless of the gravity of your "sins", God knows best, praise the Lord. Those people can't be reasoned with, they're delusional cunts.

 

Let's see what Ironhorse has to say.  If he wants to discuss god's ways not being our ways, we'll discuss it; if not, then we'll get back to it.  He might want to go in a different direction.

 

Also, some of them can be reasoned with.

 

 

A point of order... if I may, Prof.

Some Christians behave in a 'reasonable' way, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can be reasoned... with.  

There's a big difference between a Christian behaving in a courteous, polite and thoughtful manner and a Christian being able to be reasoned with by others.  Big, BIG difference.  Not so long ago the TrueScotsman wrote this...  http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/72898-christians-what-would-make-you-leave-your-faith/page-3#.V5U_iPkrJD8

.

.

.

Posted 15 June 2016 - 11:37 AM

TheRedneckProfessor, on 15 Jun 2016 - 5:30 PM, said:

Iron horse, I would like to point out that there is a huge difference between being willing to look at the "other side" and being willing to skeptically appraise your own side in light of the evidence.

Yes, and that is what faith is not willing or perhaps able to do because there is a DEVOTION to a person (Jesus), not just an acceptance of facts.

You need to get to the bottom of your epistemological differences, if you're going to understand why some Christians say that nothing could ever convince them. I never held that position, but understand why some do even though I think that's a really bad way to go about figuring out the truth.

Christianity isn't accepted in "light of the evidence," but is a very personal aspect of someone like IronHorse's life that isn't subject to negation for him. We might rail against that, but ultimately it's his existence that he has a decision of what to do with it. It doesn't seem consequential to the cosmos for us to convince him to see it a different way.

We've pointed out this fact, and that will likely be beneficial to the lurkers to see his answer which might raise problems for them as it would with most unbiased people.

.

.

. 

What TS has astutely pointed out is that Christianity isn't accepted in a reasonable and reasoned way, in the light of objective evidence.

Instead, Christianity is accepted for very personal and highly subjective 'reasons'.  If a Christian's beliefs were reasoned and reasonable, then these beliefs would be subject to negation and falsification by objective evidence.  Yet, in the very thread that I've lifted this quote from, two Christians (Ironhorse and OrdinaryClay) emphatically stated that NOTHING would make them leave their faith.  So they've ruled out the possibility of objective evidence causing them to leave their faith.  

 

Now, I hardly need explain that this is an entirely UNreasonable position to hold.

Ok, Ironhorse comes across as a "reasonable" sort of guy.  But that doesn't mean that his Christian beliefs are either reasoned or reasonable.  If NOTHING will ever cause him to leave his faith, then on this particular issue he has closed his mind to reason.   

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Your point of order is noted, BAA; and much appreciated. However, I should offer two points of clarification.

 

1. Although I consider Iron horse a friend, I'm not necessarily referring to him when I note that some christians can be reasoned with. He is a reasonable individual; though, at present, this reasonableness does not appear to extend to his faith.

 

2. If there were not christians who could be reasoned with, there would be a lot fewer ex-christians. We'd also not likely have as many lurkers here on this website.

 

Thanks,

TRP

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ironhorse,

 

You say that god is just and fair.  I also used to believe that; I believed that god's justice was also tempered by mercy, hence christ's atoning sacrifice.  But I'd like you to consider whether god's justice really is just--whether he really is fair.

 

It has been estimated that some 20 million people died under the ruthless hand of Josef Stalin; 50 million under Mao Tse-tung.  We could also discuss Hitler, Ratko Mladic, Pol Pot and many others.  These deranged men were at the helm of some of the most brutal regimes in history; responsible for some of the most hideous atrocities ever committed.  Genocide, rape, systematic murder... "crimes against humanity" doesn't even begin to describe the insane havoc wrought upon the pages of humanity by these men and their underlings.

 

For their crimes, for their sins, the justice god has prescribed is eternity in hell.

 

This is the same "justice" god would mete out to me--a simple son of The South, a lover of Cheerwine... a friend of yours.

 

Is this truly "just"?  Is it really "fair"?  That I should suffer the same fate as the butcher of the Jews?  That I should spend eternity with the architects of genocide, the progenitors of mass rape?  

 

Is this justice tempered by mercy?

 

SINcerely,

TheRedneckProfessor

So, Ironhorse, what do you reckon?

[ironhorse]

 

Ironhorse,

 

You say that god is just and fair.  I also used to believe that; I believed that god's justice was also tempered by mercy, hence christ's atoning sacrifice.  But I'd like you to consider whether god's justice really is just--whether he really is fair.

 

It has been estimated that some 20 million people died under the ruthless hand of Josef Stalin; 50 million under Mao Tse-tung.  We could also discuss Hitler, Ratko Mladic, Pol Pot and many others.  These deranged men were at the helm of some of the most brutal regimes in history; responsible for some of the most hideous atrocities ever committed.  Genocide, rape, systematic murder... "crimes against humanity" doesn't even begin to describe the insane havoc wrought upon the pages of humanity by these men and their underlings.

 

For their crimes, for their sins, the justice god has prescribed is eternity in hell.

 

This is the same "justice" god would mete out to me--a simple son of The South, a lover of Cheerwine... a friend of yours.

 

Is this truly "just"?  Is it really "fair"?  That I should suffer the same fate as the butcher of the Jews?  That I should spend eternity with the architects of genocide, the progenitors of mass rape?  

 

Is this justice tempered by mercy?

 

SINcerely,

TheRedneckProfessor

So, Ironhorse, what do you reckon?

 

 

 

I reckon, from what I read in the scriptures is that God is merciful and patient.

 

God's judgement will be fair and right.

 

Not one person will have an excuse for rejecting his love. (Romans 1:20)

[Lyra]

Why is it merciful, patient, fair or right to condemn people to Hell of literal eternal torture/loneliness/"outer darkness" after death, for mistakes and sins they committed while on Earth during an 80-year lifetime?

 

Even if you don't believe in the lava lake of fire stuff, Hell is described as a place of neverending separation and isolation, full of metaphorical weeping and gnashing of teeth. Like solitary confinement in prison, but forever....and ever...and ever....with zero end in sight or any type of hope to get out, not even by death. How is that fair or merciful even for someone who committed a heinous crime--let alone people whose only "crimes" were things like unbelief, having sex, being "worldly" etc.?

 

Eternal, neverending torture and isolation with no hope of any reprieve really does not jive with mercy, patience or fairness.