How Do You Know It's The Holy Spirit, And Not Just Your Own Mind?

[Lyra]

Respectful question for all Christian here,

 

The Christians I know often talk about being affected by the Holy Spirit. They say it gives them special insights, guides them, etc. 

 

But non-Christians have the same experience. A person can meditate, reflect, and pay attention to the deeper parts of their mind telling them what they truly want. This is the case whether or not it is correct. For example, you can rely on your own mind to tell you which of 2 job offers will be a better fit in terms of which one you would truly be happier with (and for other decisions like which city to live in, relationship choices, etc.), and a lot of the times you'll be right because being "true to yourself" will typically make you happier than going against your own conscience to fit societal norms. But likewise, sometimes people's minds can fool them. For instance, some people truly believe they are pregnant, and even have physical symptoms, but it's all just false wishful thinking (this actually happened to a friend of mine) and, look at all the gullible people who truly believe they are "in love" when all the signs are on the wall that the other person doesn't feel the same way.

 

Our mind is a powerful thing. Sometimes it's our compass, our shining light in the darkness, but other times it fools us. But the convictions that exist within the human mind, even when wrong, are very very real to the beholder.

 

So when you hear the "Holy Spirit" inside you, how do you know it's a higher being? How do you know it's the Holy Spirit, and not just your own mind telling you what you really want?

 

Please discuss.

[florduh]

It takes faith! The Bible promised that the Holy Spirit would guide believers in their understanding and discernment, but apparently He has said 40,000 different things to 40,000 different sects. But He is telling ME the Truth!

[mwc]

     It's simple.  The Holy Spirit tells everyone the exact same thing.  And gives you super powers like healing and the power to drink poison.

 

     Of course it would be a horrible test of god to ever scientifically verify any of this but it's true.  A test would likely fail to teach humility or something.  But it's all true.  You just have to believe it.

 

          mwc

[midniterider]

Before Christianity: Still small voice is you.

During Christianity: Still small voice is the Holy Spirit! Praise his name!

After Christianity: Still small voice is you.

[readyforchange]

I think some may cite Romans 8:28, when Paul says that "...all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose". Whereas, in your example, if the person is asking the holy spirit to guide him or her on a decision of which of 2 job offers to take, that whatever decision her or she makes is the right decision because the holy spirit would ensure that it was the right decision.

 

Christians might also say that because God already has a plan in place for one's life, that the holy spirit would be guiding every decision made. But as you indicate, non-Christians can meditate and also get a similar feeling. Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, and other people of different faiths also feel that they are being led by a higher power. Which seems to strongly suggest that there is no way to prove that there is anything to really distinguish a Christian's interpretation of being led by the holy spirit from voices in the person's own mind.

[Guest Furball]

It is all in their mind. When they think on god their attention gets brought to their own mind. When they speak of scripture their getting that info from their mind which retained that info from the bible. When they think of loving thoughts etc. about god again they have to reference their "loving" thoughts from the area of the mind. Christianity as well as all religion is based in the psyche, not on actual external proofs or evidence. What they think is their soul is only their mind as neuropsychology as well as neuroscience has validly proved through rigorous tests on religious and non religious people alike. I.E. the god helmet experiments. There is a book called why we believe in god(s) by j. anderson thomson that debunks the whole soul/faith/god fallacy using strictly scientific tests which validate that christianity/god/faith/soul/religion is all based in the neuropathways of the mind. 

 

 

Why We Believe in God(s): A Concise Guide to the Science of Faith: J. Anderson Thomson, Clare Aukofer, Richard Dawkins: 9780984493210: Amazon.com: Books

[disillusioned]

I spent a lot of time trying to answer that question when I was a Christian. The only honest answer I was ever able to find was "you don't". For me, that realization was the key to my exit.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You know it's not just your mind because it tells you it's not just your mind... Why would it lie about something like that?

[bornagainathiest]

Respectful question for all Christian here,

 

The Christians I know often talk about being affected by the Holy Spirit. They say it gives them special insights, guides them, etc. 

 

But non-Christians have the same experience. A person can meditate, reflect, and pay attention to the deeper parts of their mind telling them what they truly want. This is the case whether or not it is correct. For example, you can rely on your own mind to tell you which of 2 job offers will be a better fit in terms of which one you would truly be happier with (and for other decisions like which city to live in, relationship choices, etc.), and a lot of the times you'll be right because being "true to yourself" will typically make you happier than going against your own conscience to fit societal norms. But likewise, sometimes people's minds can fool them. For instance, some people truly believe they are pregnant, and even have physical symptoms, but it's all just false wishful thinking (this actually happened to a friend of mine) and, look at all the gullible people who truly believe they are "in love" when all the signs are on the wall that the other person doesn't feel the same way.

 

Our mind is a powerful thing. Sometimes it's our compass, our shining light in the darkness, but other times it fools us. But the convictions that exist within the human mind, even when wrong, are very very real to the beholder.

 

So when you hear the "Holy Spirit" inside you, how do you know it's a higher being? How do you know it's the Holy Spirit, and not just your own mind telling you what you really want?

 

Please discuss.

 

Hello Lyra.  

 

According to the Bible there is a way for a Christian to tell if it's the holy spirit affecting them and not just their own mind.

I am, of course, talking about the fruit of the spirit.  Ok, this doesn't exactly answer your question - but afaik, this is the best that scripture can do.  In Christianity only the holy spirit can transform a believer's life in the ways described in the quote below.  

 

Galatians 5 : 16 - 25.

 

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

 

So, if such changes are seen in their behavior then, according to the Bible, they are being affected (led by) the spirit and not just by their own mind.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Lyra]

Lol but people can choose to change their ways regardless of religion, or if they have none.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Respectful question for all Christian here,

 

The Christians I know often talk about being affected by the Holy Spirit. They say it gives them special insights, guides them, etc. 

 

But non-Christians have the same experience. A person can meditate, reflect, and pay attention to the deeper parts of their mind telling them what they truly want. This is the case whether or not it is correct. For example, you can rely on your own mind to tell you which of 2 job offers will be a better fit in terms of which one you would truly be happier with (and for other decisions like which city to live in, relationship choices, etc.), and a lot of the times you'll be right because being "true to yourself" will typically make you happier than going against your own conscience to fit societal norms. But likewise, sometimes people's minds can fool them. For instance, some people truly believe they are pregnant, and even have physical symptoms, but it's all just false wishful thinking (this actually happened to a friend of mine) and, look at all the gullible people who truly believe they are "in love" when all the signs are on the wall that the other person doesn't feel the same way.

 

Our mind is a powerful thing. Sometimes it's our compass, our shining light in the darkness, but other times it fools us. But the convictions that exist within the human mind, even when wrong, are very very real to the beholder.

 

So when you hear the "Holy Spirit" inside you, how do you know it's a higher being? How do you know it's the Holy Spirit, and not just your own mind telling you what you really want?

 

Please discuss.

 

Hello Lyra.  

 

According to the Bible there is a way for a Christian to tell if it's the holy spirit affecting them and not just their own mind.

I am, of course, talking about the fruit of the spirit.  Ok, this doesn't exactly answer your question - but afaik, this is the best that scripture can do.  In Christianity only the holy spirit can transform a believer's life in the ways described in the quote below.  

 

Galatians 5 : 16 - 25.

 

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

 

So, if such changes are seen in their behavior then, according to the Bible, they are being affected (led by) the spirit and not just by their own mind.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

With all due respect, BAA, the only way to know if a person has been affected by the holy spirit is the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues.  As it is a demonstrated fact that denominational doctrine takes priority over scripture, I direct you to #8 of the 16 Fundamental Truths of the Assemblies of God:

 

http://familywc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/16-Fundamental-Truths.pdf

[bornagainathiest]

Lol but people can choose to change their ways regardless of religion, or if they have none.

 

Agree, Lyra.

 

My comments focus only on what the Bible says.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Respectful question for all Christian here,

 

The Christians I know often talk about being affected by the Holy Spirit. They say it gives them special insights, guides them, etc. 

 

But non-Christians have the same experience. A person can meditate, reflect, and pay attention to the deeper parts of their mind telling them what they truly want. This is the case whether or not it is correct. For example, you can rely on your own mind to tell you which of 2 job offers will be a better fit in terms of which one you would truly be happier with (and for other decisions like which city to live in, relationship choices, etc.), and a lot of the times you'll be right because being "true to yourself" will typically make you happier than going against your own conscience to fit societal norms. But likewise, sometimes people's minds can fool them. For instance, some people truly believe they are pregnant, and even have physical symptoms, but it's all just false wishful thinking (this actually happened to a friend of mine) and, look at all the gullible people who truly believe they are "in love" when all the signs are on the wall that the other person doesn't feel the same way.

 

Our mind is a powerful thing. Sometimes it's our compass, our shining light in the darkness, but other times it fools us. But the convictions that exist within the human mind, even when wrong, are very very real to the beholder.

 

So when you hear the "Holy Spirit" inside you, how do you know it's a higher being? How do you know it's the Holy Spirit, and not just your own mind telling you what you really want?

 

Please discuss.

 

Hello Lyra.  

 

According to the Bible there is a way for a Christian to tell if it's the holy spirit affecting them and not just their own mind.

I am, of course, talking about the fruit of the spirit.  Ok, this doesn't exactly answer your question - but afaik, this is the best that scripture can do.  In Christianity only the holy spirit can transform a believer's life in the ways described in the quote below.  

 

Galatians 5 : 16 - 25.

 

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

 

So, if such changes are seen in their behavior then, according to the Bible, they are being affected (led by) the spirit and not just by their own mind.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

With all due respect, BAA, the only way to know if a person has been affected by the holy spirit is the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues.  As it is a demonstrated fact that denominational doctrine takes priority over scripture, I direct you to #8 of the 16 Fundamental Truths of the Assemblies of God:

 

http://familywc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/16-Fundamental-Truths.pdf

 

 

And with all due respect returned, Prof...

 

According to scripture, tongues are a temporary gift of the holy spirit - whereas the fruit of the holy spirit will last forever.

 

1 Corinthians 13New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

None of the gifts of the spirit are forever, but the fruit of the spirit are eternal, just as Jesus Christ is eternal.

Therefore, the true measure of the holy spirit affecting a Christian is the lasting effect it has on their behavior, not the temporary effect tongues has on them when they gather together with other Christians.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You're not suggesting that the One True Faith^TM got it wrong, are you?

[Guest end3]

Well,

 

To give you my old opinion, I used to think it was recognizable by goose/chill bumps mixed with a near simultaneous recognition of revelation...or understanding.

 

My new opinion.....I still like the goose bumps, but I think it is more of a recognition of a higher choice for someone's wellbeing....(that typically does not coincide with what I think should happen)...like choosing choices for an ex spouse that you know will benefit them even though you are divorced. But, BUT, we are led to believe the HS can act on an individual because He wants to.

[Lyra]

But don't goosebumps come from signals to the body from the brain, which would just loop back to the "it's your own mind" idea?

 

And an atheist/agnostic, or a person of a different faith, can still also choose to be generous and benevolent toward others.

 

So why does this point exclusively to a supernatural Christian holy spirit?

[duderonomy]

Well,

 

To give you my old opinion, I used to think it was recognizable by goose/chill bumps mixed with a near simultaneous recognition of revelation...or understanding.

 

My new opinion.....I still like the goose bumps, but I think it is more of a recognition of a higher choice for someone's wellbeing....(that typically does not coincide with what I think should happen)...like choosing choices for an ex spouse that you know will benefit them even though you are divorced. But, BUT, we are led to believe the HS can act on an individual because He wants to.

 

So you don't have that faith anymore, but you still have hope?

[Guest end3]

But don't goosebumps come from signals to the body from the brain, which would just loop back to the "it's your own mind" idea?

 

And an atheist/agnostic, or a person of a different faith, can still also choose to be generous and benevolent toward others.

 

So why does this point exclusively to a supernatural Christian holy spirit?

No idea the mechanism of goosebumps. To the latter, I guess the idea for me is where does an "ah ha" moment stem from....external or internal. There seems to have been several times in my life where the ideas or revelations were SO external, that I don't give my mind credit for originating them internally, yet by default the connection is in the end, internal....if that makes sense. Can't say that this points exclusively to the Christian HS except for the revelations were of the Bible.

[bornagainathiest]

Am I suggesting that the... One True Faith^TM got it wrong, Prof?

Not at all, you naughty little boy.  (Wags an admonishing finger in the Prof's direction, but can't suppress a grin while doing so.) 

 

The problem isn't that this denomination or that sect is at fault, that this pastor or that lay preacher is in error.

No, the problem is that Christianity lacks an objective standard against which error can be measured.  Which opens it up to subjective interpretation on the part of the believer.  And this is exactly where Ironhorse was when he wrote that... if he believes in (insert whatever) then it is a reason to him.  His subjective choice is the measure of scripture's truth. 

 

His faith exists in a kind of subjective no-man's land that is neither objectively confirmable or falsifiable by evidence.

Which explains why he can't offer up even one example of objective evidence for the truth of Christianity.  He doesn't do objectivity.  His faith is entirely subjective.  But that's no real surprise, is it?  Christianity doesn't do objectivity either.  Nor does the Bible. 

 

Hence the many thousands of different interpretations of the One-and-Only True Christian Message.

All of them (including Ironhorse) claiming that theirs and only theirs is the truth of truths.

 

Just ask Florduh if he sees 'it' yet.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

Am I suggesting that the... One True Faith^TM got it wrong, Prof?

Not at all, you naughty little boy.  (Wags an admonishing finger in the Prof's direction, but can't suppress a grin while doing so.) 

 

The problem isn't that this denomination or that sect is at fault, that this pastor or that lay preacher is in error.

No, the problem is that Christianity lacks an objective standard against which error can be measured.  Which opens it up to subjective interpretation on the part of the believer.  And this is exactly where Ironhorse was when he wrote that... if he believes in (insert whatever) then it is a reason to him.  His subjective choice is the measure of scripture's truth. 

 

His faith exists in a kind of subjective no-man's land that is neither objectively confirmable or falsifiable by evidence.

Which explains why he can't offer up even one example of objective evidence for the truth of Christianity.  He doesn't do objectivity.  His faith is entirely subjective.  But that's no real surprise, is it?  Christianity doesn't do objectivity either.  Nor does the Bible. 

 

Hence the many thousands of different interpretations of the One-and-OnlyTrue Christian Message.

All of them (including Ironhorse) claiming that theirs and only theirs is the truth of truths.

 

Just ask Florduh if he sees 'it' yet.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

But the objective end of life was never in question. Seems reasonable that the Christianity provides a explanation for what happens to the spiritual end.....not the objective end. Christ comes to answer that as an objective standard.

[Guest end3]

 

Well,

 

To give you my old opinion, I used to think it was recognizable by goose/chill bumps mixed with a near simultaneous recognition of revelation...or understanding.

 

My new opinion.....I still like the goose bumps, but I think it is more of a recognition of a higher choice for someone's wellbeing....(that typically does not coincide with what I think should happen)...like choosing choices for an ex spouse that you know will benefit them even though you are divorced. But, BUT, we are led to believe the HS can act on an individual because He wants to.

 

So you don't have that faith anymore, but you still have hope?

 

My faith is less in the institution I think D. And sure, I have hope.

[florduh]

It seems that organized religions, in particular Christianity and Islam, are rather rudimentary and legalistic views of spirituality. Spiritual enlightenment brings about a change in understanding and perspective regarding one's relationship with the universe. Upon experiencing the unity of all things, one's thoughts turn to operating from that perspective rather than the narrow view of the ego. Christianity attributes altruistic thoughts and cooperative behaviors to the Holy Spirit. In this view, one's thoughts and ideas are his own but are influenced by the one and only real god. It's a sadly limited view that causes division and feeds the ego. This is why I and many others always say that religion is the natural enemy of spirituality.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

End3,

 

I don't suppose you have any Scriptures to support your assertions, have you?

 

Have a good day,

TheRedneckProfessor

[Guest end3]

End3,

 

I don't suppose you have any Scriptures to support your assertions, have you?

 

Have a good day,

TheRedneckProfessor

Yes, what Lyra posted, in Galatians, seems to fit pretty well with what I was saying about choosing a positive outcome for others despite our own feelings. Regarding what BAA posted about no objective standard.....there are numerous references to everything objective passing away. Were you after other specifics or will that suffice?

[bornagainathiest]

 

Am I suggesting that the... One True Faith^TM got it wrong, Prof?

Not at all, you naughty little boy.  (Wags an admonishing finger in the Prof's direction, but can't suppress a grin while doing so.) 

 

The problem isn't that this denomination or that sect is at fault, that this pastor or that lay preacher is in error.

No, the problem is that Christianity lacks an objective standard against which error can be measured.  Which opens it up to subjective interpretation on the part of the believer.  And this is exactly where Ironhorse was when he wrote that... if he believes in (insert whatever) then it is a reason to him.  His subjective choice is the measure of scripture's truth. 

 

His faith exists in a kind of subjective no-man's land that is neither objectively confirmable or falsifiable by evidence.

Which explains why he can't offer up even one example of objective evidence for the truth of Christianity.  He doesn't do objectivity.  His faith is entirely subjective.  But that's no real surprise, is it?  Christianity doesn't do objectivity either.  Nor does the Bible. 

 

Hence the many thousands of different interpretations of the One-and-OnlyTrue Christian Message.

All of them (including Ironhorse) claiming that theirs and only theirs is the truth of truths.

 

Just ask Florduh if he sees 'it' yet.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

But the objective end of life was never in question. Seems reasonable that the Christianity provides a explanation for what happens to the spiritual end.....not the objective end. Christ comes to answer that as an objective standard.

 

 

And you know this... objectively, End?  

 

You can objectively demonstrate what you assert without resorting to faith?

 

You can demonstrate this 'reasonable explanation' by reason alone?

 

You can demonstrate the objectivity of Christ's standard?

 

Please show us these four things.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.