What About When Ordinary People (Not Preachers Or Cult Leaders) Claim To Have Seen Things Like Supernatural Healings?

[Lyra]

Even though I'm not religious in any way, certain things do make me wonder -- not about Christianity (I am 100% certain it's a crock of BS), but about the possibility of a general spiritual presence or the explanations of other odd things.

 

I have no doubts whatsoever that lying preachers and cult leaders make up stories of "miracles" in order to fool the people, especially when there is money and fame involved. This should be an obviously reasonable deduction to anyone on this ex-believer forum. But what about the people who claim to have witnessed such things who are not the lying type, and who have nothing personal to gain from lying about it?

 

Case in point - one of my best friends and roommate from college went to this place called Iris Ministries in Micronesia, on a small island in the middle of nowhere. She claimed to have seen miracles like deformities healed, a leg physically regrowing in seconds, and more. I would never believe it coming from some pompous preacher's mouth, but this is a girl who, when we were in school together, was always a terrible liar. Like if she borrowed your sweater without asking and you asked her about it, not even bothered or anything, she would get super flustered and anxious and stuff. Plus she was always very forthcoming about her own experiences and lack thereof, and was not a "lie to fit in and be cool" type. So it makes no sense to me that she would start lying about supernatural stuff - it's out of her character. Plus it's not just that one person. If you go to the Iris ministries in Micronesia page (I looked it up once), it's full of dozen's of people's testimonies claiming supernatural stuff along the lines of what she claimed (not like exactly all the same story, but all in the category of supernatural healing miracles). And these aren't just people who are natives of a more isolated, less educated place. They are missionaries coming from the US.

 

So I can get how someone with no science knowledge and no critical thinking skills will believe something like "the earth is 6,000 years ago and was made in 7 days by god" because they don't know any better. And I can get how a swindling preacher will lie and fake miracles to make money. But what about people who had been critical thinkers at one point, and who are honest and lack the abilities of a cult leader (no fame, charisma, or creativity to make up the stuff and pull off how to do it), who claim by the hundreds to have been privy to such things?

 

The girl I knew, when she was younger, was very into science and wanted to be a researcher when she grew up, but then she got into christianity and is now a fundie. I'm not sure what happened.

[Overcame Faith]

I think that labels like "supernatural healings" and "miracles" may be the problem with incidents like you describe.  These descriptors suggest that there is some force of some sort which has the ability to defy the normal physical laws of the universe and accomplish something that, but for that force, could not be accomplished.  I don't doubt that there are some people whose diseased or mangled bodies do defy the odds and heal completely and medical science cannot explain it.  That, however, is not supernatural or a miracle.  Rather, it is something not fully understood that we should try to understand.

 

One example is the well-known placebo effect.  For every drug that is approved by the FDA, the manufacturer must demonstrate safety and efficacy of the drug (among some other things) before it will be approved for general medical use.  Part of what must be demonstrated to prove efficacy is that when compared to placebo, the new drug has a greater beneficial effect than does placebo.  A placebo is a pill composed of substances which should have very little or no measurable impact on the body.  If a pharmaceutical manufacturer wants to market a medicine that will lower blood pressure, one of the things the manufacturer has to demonstrate is that its drug does a better job than placebo does in lowering blood pressure.  The really weird thing is that some percentage of people involved in the study who take only placebo (but neither they nor the administering physician knows who takes placebo or who takes the actual drug), will have their blood pressure lowered (if the test involves a blood pressure medication).

 

One might say the placebo effect is a "miracle" since there is no actual drug involved in this example of lowering blood pressure.  But it's not a miracle, though to my knowledge medical science can't completely explain it, it is a well known and documented phenomenon and is not a miracle or anything supernatural.

[pantheory]

IMO when people claim to see, or have seen supernatural things you just let their statements pass. If you are a friendly type and possibly would like to hear more, you might say "cool" or something to that effect. Never argue with such a person. If you know the person well enough you might ask them questions like "do you think it could have been a dream or something like that. Listen to their answers, be polite, and never challenge what they are saying. Like me, I would bet my house against a six pack that there is either BS or a good imagination involved, a life-like dream sequence, a hoax or trick played on the believer, mental or psychological problems, drugs of some kind, sleep deprivation, the power of suggestion, etc. Afterwards as you leave you should thank them for their explanations.For some believers such "visions" may be very comforting and beneficial for their health.

 

That's my advice

[midniterider]

Maybe these miracles are indeed real. Maybe not.

[sdelsolray]

...

She claimed to have seen miracles like deformities healed, a leg physically regrowing in seconds, and more.

 

...but this is a girl who, when we were in school together, was always a terrible liar. 

...

 

2 + 2 = 4

[♦ ficino ♦]

Lyra, can you give us any more info about the leg physically regrowing in seconds? Had it been amputated, and then another leg grew?

[Lyra]

Sdelsolray - We misunderstood. When I said she was a terrible liar, I didn't mean she had a terrible tendency to lie. I mean she was terrible AT lying. Whenever she attempted to tell a [harmless] lie, she always flubbed up in an obvious manner and then just gave up and told the truth. She can't hold a lie for 5 seconds without giving herself away. So making up a big false tale to impress other people isn't something I think she's capable of. Otherwise, you're right, the answer would be obvious.

 

Ficino, she said the leg was disabled and  that one was shorter than the other, and it grew back slowly, about 1-2 inches over the course of ~60 seconds.

 

Another red flag about this place was that she wasn't able to have any access to her Internet devices during the time she was there, to "focus on the spirit" (probably to prevent people from debunking anything!) But still, that wouldn't explain actually seeing shit with her own eyes.

 

I have heard of the Placebo effect and I believe in its legitimacy. But can it make legs grow?

[Thought2Much]

"Leg lengthening" is a pretty well known, super-simple parlor trick that faith "healers" use to fool religious rubes.

 

Talk to me when they can medically confirm and show a missing limb regrown on video.

[Lyra]

I did some research on the subject. Thanks for showing me the answers of how those hoaxes work. Wow.

 

It's sad to think of my friend being duped  that way. And she's married to another fundie and they have a baby now, and they're deeply entrenched in "living their life for Cheezes" stuff. At least he's a genuinely nice person, and they seem to have a pretty equal marriage and not into the whole 'the woman submits' crap. But still, it will make it less likely for her to be willing to see the light.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hi Lyra, I see that Thought2Much has already pointed out the leg-lengthening scam. I had that done on me when I started out as a pentecostal. They did it quite a lot in healing services and revivals. It didn't do anything for me. The only thing that came close to a miracle that I ever saw was one guy got up and said that up till a previous night, he had been blind. Then he'd been healed in an earlier day of the week-long revival. He said he was donating $100 (this was in 1972). I took all this as simple truth. Thinking about it years later, I realized I had no idea of the facts of the case or even who the guy was. It motivated me to fork over $20, a lot for a college student in those days.