Biblegod Is The One Whose Actions Killed Countless People In Large-Scale Catastophes. Why Is Satan The Bad Guy?

[Lyra]

Throughout the Bible, Yahweh engages in a lot of large-scale acts that involve killing innocent people. The Flood, the death of the firstborn babies, the bears who killed the kids for making fun of the prophet, the commands to go slaughter other tribes in war and kill all the innocent civilians, etc.

 

On the other hand, Satan's actions seem to just involve tempting people: eating the Fruit, trying to test Jesus in the desert, etc. The worst thing I can recall Satan doing was how he ruined Job's life, but God gave him permission each step of the way, like Job's kids were all just worthless pawns in a game. 

 

The theory goes that Satan tempts people to hell by enticing people to be "worldly," but God is the one responsible for Hell existing at all and could choose to just get rid of Hell (or, even just destroy humans instantaneously without the need to have them tormented forever).

 

So hypothetically, if we were to assume for the sake of discussion that Satan and Biblegod were real as depicted, why is Satan the bad guy?

 

 

[ironhorse]

Satan is a liar. 

[sdelsolray]

Satan is a liar. 

 

 

So am I, so are you, so are your sky fairies.

 

So what?

 

Hey, look over there!!!

 

What is your point?

[rjn]

Satan is a convenient scapegoat. He barely shows up in the Bible, but Christians refer to his influence all the time. All superheroes need a villain.

[sdelsolray]

Throughout the Bible, Yahweh engages in a lot of large-scale acts that involve killing innocent people. The Flood, the death of the firstborn babies, the bears who killed the kids for making fun of the prophet, the commands to go slaughter other tribes in war and kill all the innocent civilians, etc.

 

On the other hand, Satan's actions seem to just involve tempting people: eating the Fruit, trying to test Jesus in the desert, etc. The worst thing I can recall Satan doing was how he ruined Job's life, but God gave him permission each step of the way, like Job's kids were all just worthless pawns in a game. 

 

The theory goes that Satan tempts people to hell by enticing people to be "worldly," but God is the one responsible for Hell existing at all and could choose to just get rid of Hell (or, even just destroy humans instantaneously without the need to have them tormented forever).

 

So hypothetically, if we were to assume for the sake of discussion that Satan and Biblegod were real as depicted, why is Satan the bad guy?

 

 

You are dealing with the culture of relatively small groups of people living thousands of years ago in one small region of the planet, seen through the lens of individual authors who had their own political, theological and personal agendas, carried forward via manual copies by others with additional political, theological and personal agendas.  This was captured by the political and military elite of the time and utilized to control and exploit human populations.

 

And that only gets us to about 400 AD.

 

As to the comparison between one or another of the biblegods and the ever evolving Satan character(s), it is primarily based on a duality of good vs. evil.

 

The answer to the two questions in your OP:  Religious propaganda.

[duderonomy]

Satan is a liar. 

 

Prove it please, and use your Bible. 

[mwc]

     So I can slaughter all the people I want IF I tell the truth?  Truth is a free pass to genocide?  Hang on...

 

     [whips out old timey telephone]

     Hello?  Hitler?  Have I got some good news for you!  What?  You've already killed yourself?  Damn.  Well we'll get'em next time.

     [hangs up receiver]

 

     Alright, well, that was just one idea.

 

     All I know is with the Power of Truth on my side I can do whatever I want without consequences.  I'm GOD!  The world, the universe, is my oyster.  I can't believe old Satan is too stupid to realize this.

 

          mwc

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Satan is a liar. 

If by "satan" you mean "god", then, yes.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/63235-gods-mighty-plan-of-salvation/page-1#.V678CPkrLIU

 

And here's another one for you, Ironhorse.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/61193-god-is-a-liar/#.V679T_krLIU

[bornagainathiest]

Satan is a liar. 

 

There's a simple enough way of finding out who's doing the lying, Ironhorse.

 

Romans 1 : 18 - 20

 

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

So what is it that God has made plain and is clearly seen by everyone?

Please note that whatever it is, it cannot be a matter of faih.  It must be an objective truth that is understood by reason, not by faith.  There are two reasons why.   First, if it applies to everyone, then it's objective and not subjective - because it is true for all.  Second, it's understood by reason because Paul uses the word, noomena, which has nothing to do with faith.  As we can see here... http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/1-20.htm   and here...   http://biblehub.com/greek/3539.htm

 

So please tell us what this objective truth is, Ironhorse.

Please also remember that whatever it is, you MUST understand it by reason.  Not by faith.  Reason.  Why?  Because the apostle Paul, writing god-breathed scripture, says so.  If you don't understand God's clearly seen objective truth by reason, then either you are lying or Paul is lying.  Please tell us exactly what this plainly seen objective truth is.

 

We await your swift reply with anticipation.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest Furball]

Satan is a liar. 

 

LOL - Satan actually told the truth in the garden. It's god that has been proven a liar through false prophesies and promises in both the old and new testaments. Your imaginary jesus also said that satan was a murderer from the beginning, yet who killed first in your disgusting book? God did when he slew animals for their skin to cloth adam and eve. Who put the tree in the garden of eden to entice adam and eve to spiritual death? God did. The biblical god was the first physical and spiritual murderer, not satan. What about mark 14:62: "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Who is the YOU? It was the high priest he was immediately speaking to. So did the high priest as jesus said he would see jesus sitting on the right hand of the mighty one and coming in the clouds of heaven? Clearly the answer is a literal NO. So jesus lied. I'm sorry ironhorse, but your bible alone proves god and jesus to be pathological liars. Think I am lying? Try this one from ecclesiastes 8:5 Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment. Do christians feel evil things? Of course they do! Christians experience the evil of life in their own life as an atheist or anyone else. This verse/promise also is a lie. From beginning to end, the bible is strewn with lies from god and jesus. I really hope you take the time to really read your bible to see what it actually says, instead of letting it continue to brainwash you. I feel sorry for you ironhorse. I used to throw out bible quotes at people too thinking I was right...until I was exposed to what the bible really taught. 

 

The ironic thing is that all the horrifying attributes that christians give to satan are actually describing the god of the bible. The bible itself proves this...read it for yourself.

[Lyra]

Here's another thought I had on the subject. (For the record, I see all this stuff as just myth, so I'm not postulating that any of  this is literally real. Rather, this debate is more from a philosophical/ethical perspective, like analyzing the morality of a novel or movie.)

 

Given that God is the one who put the tree in the garden knowing it would make humanity fall and be [mostly] destined for hell; killed the entire world's population besides Noah and his family; killed all the innocent children/civilians in various wars and genocides; etc., and Satan is the one who rebelled in the beginning, who's to say that Satan isn't actually the underdog fighting for something better?

 

Like "Hey man, don't be a dick and kill all these people and make it so most of them are doomed to hell. My way would be better for the people, let's do that instead." 

 

And Biblegod, being the narcissistic control-freak that he is, took this as a personal affront.

 

Why isn't this the case?

 

I mean, in many many cases, usurping and revolting is a good thing. Like with the American Revolution, blacks fighting for freedom from slavery and equal rights, women fighting for the vote and for equal rights as men, the struggle for LGBT equality, revolutions for workers' rights and child labor laws, etc. And that's just in America. Other examples include the end of apartheid in South Africa, and rebel groups during WWII that helped take down Hitler.

 

In all these cases, rebellling against the authority was the GOOD thing to do, so why couldn't it be the case that Satan's rebellion against Biblegod was a similar struggle for the good side?

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Why is he the bad guy? Because he doesn't agree with Biblegod. That's it for a narcissist like Biblegod.

 

Oddly, the character of the accuser barely even appears in the scriptures, particularly in the OT. Daniel is really the only one that inflames all of the "spiritual warfare" nuts in churches, because he talks about princes and angels doing battle. Which is fine if you believe in the old-style gods that were essentially petulant humans with gobs of spooky power. Norse, Greek, Roman, and other gods would mess with people for fun, rape or seduce human females (Medusa was a virgin dedicated to Athena, and who was raped by Poseidon, taking her virginity and causing the wrath of Athena for not being a virgin any more). Typically, people don't envision biblegod this way, but he really is if you read the stories without the filter of belief.

[readyforchange]

Here's another thought I had on the subject. (For the record, I see all this stuff as just myth, so I'm not postulating that any of  this is literally real. Rather, this debate is more from a philosophical/ethical perspective, like analyzing the morality of a novel or movie.)

 

Given that God is the one who put the tree in the garden knowing it would make humanity fall and be [mostly] destined for hell; killed the entire world's population besides Noah and his family; killed all the innocent children/civilians in various wars and genocides; etc., and Satan is the one who rebelled in the beginning, who's to say that Satan isn't actually the underdog fighting for something better?

 

Like "Hey man, don't be a dick and kill all these people and make it so most of them are doomed to hell. My way would be better for the people, let's do that instead." 

 

And Biblegod, being the narcissistic control-freak that he is, took this as a personal affront.

 

Why isn't this the case?

 

I mean, in many many cases, usurping and revolting is a good thing. Like with the American Revolution, blacks fighting for freedom from slavery and equal rights, women fighting for the vote and for equal rights as men, the struggle for LGBT equality, revolutions for workers' rights and child labor laws, etc. And that's just in America. Other examples include the end of apartheid in South Africa, and rebel groups during WWII that helped take down Hitler.

 

In all these cases, rebellling against the authority was the GOOD thing to do, so why couldn't it be the case that Satan's rebellion against Biblegod was a similar struggle for the good side?

That's an interesting theory Lyra. I always wondered if Satan is in control of hell, then couldn't Satan decide to change the parameters of hell - for example, if Satan wanted to end the lake of fire and torturing of souls and turn it back into the Sheol concept, or even turn it into what one would consider a paradise, could he do that? And if not, what (or who) is keeping that from happening?

[Lyra]

Why not a giant party? Lots of fun music, strobelights, dancing, awesome food and drink, sex, some good academic areas with good literature and science and debate for us intellectual types.

 

You know, all the harmless things that are deemed "sins" up in heaven.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

But Satan was never considered the god of the underworld, or in charge of hell, in Christianity. That is borrowing from the Greeks and Romans who had the god Hades (Greeks) or Pluto (Roman). Judaism has no hell, and the accuser was a minor character that developed after the exile to Babylon (if I recall correctly). Jesus said that the lake of fire was made for the devil and his angels. I don't know if the Greeks or Romans ever had a reason for the dead to be in suffering. I think both had a kind of paradise for those who were considered really nice humans.

 

Hell (patterned after a burning dump) was a temporary place of torment that will itself be thrown into the lake of fire at the end. Many confuse the lake of fire with hell, but the bible separates them. 

[rjn]

The Satan-character probably evolved from some sort of trickster-spirit in Levantine folklore. If I remember my Oddyseus right, there is some sort of suffering in the lower reaches of Hades, but it doesn't seem to be a burning Hell like the one envisioned by many Christians, but rather a dark, sad and confusing place.

[Lyra]

But that's what I'm getting at. Satan is essentially just a "trickster spirit" who undermines the Big Douche. The Big Douche is the one responsible for genocides and the flood and sending people to hell for normal bullshit.

 

In most stories, from Disney cartoons to serious thrillers, the villain does the bad shit and the hero saves the day. In the Bible, you would expect the stories to go along the lines of "Satan did this evil destructive deed, or was planning to, but God saved the day and restored peace." But instead, God is doing all the nasty villainous things, and all Satan does is show up every now and then to tempt people like some kind of leprechaun or something.

 

What I'm asking is, from a rational viewpoint, why is Satan considered to be more of a villain than God? And why is God--who slaughters 90% of his creation and only favors a small group based on their cultural customs and worship techniques--considered to be the hero?

[rjn]

Because of cultural bias and religious indoctrination since the 4th century?

How many times do Satan actually show up in the Bible? Like, the Book of Job and then in the NT tempting Jesus? That's pretty much it right?

[Lyra]

I agree with you, that that's the rational answer.

 

I'm just surprised no one else talks about this. I mean, Satan is the subject of all these horror movies, depicted as this terrifying entity more evil than anything else on the planet, Christians fear attracting him with bad energy, etc....but, as you say, all Satan actually does is tempt Adam and Eve, tempt Jesus in the desert, and fuck with Job. The last one was the only time it caused tangible harm, but God was the one who sanctioned/allowed it. 

 

I'd like to see what Christians have to say on this subject, if someone like Ironhorse or End3 wants to answer.

[sdelsolray]

Ironhorse already gave his well thought out, deep and profound non-sequitur answer.