Christians Are, At Their Core, Far More Self-Centered Than Atheists/agnostics

[GirlOnFire]

So I've been marinating on this train of thought for a few days now...

 

Everything Christians (and probably other religions, too, I'm just not personally very familiar with any others) do is done out of selfish motive; it's all about what they are getting for themselves.

 

When a Christian helps another, it is with one of a few motives in mind:

- To bring others to accept their beliefs/god/church/doctrine

- To be in god's good graces/gain favor with god

- To gain eternal reward/get to heaven/gain "godly riches" when they get to heaven

- Any combo of any/all above

 

In all of these cases, it's not *really* about the other person!  Sure, on the surface it may be, but underneath it all, there is always some very self-centered motivation underneath it all.  It's not simply being a good, selfless, giving person with no strings attached.

 

Whereas, the atheist/agnostic has no ulterior motive.  When we do good deeds for others, it's not coming from an underlying selfish motivation.  We do good simply because we want to do good and make the world a better place, because we don't honestly care what is or isn't in it for us.

 

I do recognize there are still plenty of selfish agnostics/atheists out there, but it's a situational selfishness, not an ever-present mindset.

[florduh]

Agreed. Nothing a "serious" Christian does is selfless. There is always the agenda. After all, they wrestle with spirits and not flesh so they are nowhere on the same page as sane people.

[Guest Furball]

You're absolutely right. When was the last time you heard of a christian helping the poor without shoving a bible or christian propaganda into their hands? It doesn't happen. Christians only help people with the motive of brainwashing them; they never help their fellow man simply to help them.

 

Great post GirlOnFire. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

One of the greatest shocks I had early in my deconversion was the realization that I was neither as "humble" nor as "selfless" as I perceived myself to be.  I thought the most selfless act one could perform was to sacrifice oneself upon the altar of god in order to reach the nations for the lord.  In reality, it amounted to nothing short of self-righteousness on my part.

[Geezer]

You guys are aware that you got to accumulate a ton of Brownie points to make the cut for heaven, right? Therefore you really can't pass up any opportunity to pick up another Brownie point when you get the chance.

 

You got to cut them Xians some slack, nobody even knows what the minimum Brownie point requirement is.

[MOHO]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm BROWNIES!

 

Good post, GOF! Nailed it!

 

Let's hope some xtians do good deeds, at least partially, because they really are good people, because if you only treat people decently BECAUSE of a self-serving agenda, you MIGHT be a sociopath!

[Lilith666]

I don't know about the average selfishness of either group, though I've heard of a study that says religious kids are more self-centered than others. But I will say that Christianity encourages selfishness more than secularism does. It fosters a smug attitude of faux humility, turning the other cheek while feeling above others because ultimately they are sacred royalty and they'll get their just reward for crawling around being nice their whole lives. Not that all Christians are like this, but that's the feeling I get reading the bible and listening to Christians talk about their special knowledge that others don't have, their god-bestowed hope while everyone else wallows in nihilistic misery.

[GirlOnFire]

I don't know about the average selfishness of either group, though I've heard of a study that says religious kids are more self-centeredness than others. But I will say that Christianity encourages selfishness more than secularism does. It fosters a smug attitude of faux humility, turning the other cheek while feeling above others because ultimately they are sacred royalty and they'll get their just reward for crawling around being nice their whole lives. Not that all Christians are like this, but that's the feeling I get reading the bible and listening to Christians talk about their special knowledge that others don't have, their god-bestowed hope while everyone else wallows in nihilistic misery.

 

That's kind of what I was getting at; while the actions may be very kind, loving, and pure, there is an underlying selfish undertone of "what's in it for me," whether that be in this life or the next.  I think when you get to a point that you accept there may or may not be an afterlife (deconversion/embracing agnosticism/atheism), and therefore trying to influence your own place in it doesn't even matter, it shifts your entire perspective.  You are no longer working toward a perfect future for yourself (heaven with riches), nor trying to gain any sort of higher reward/favor for yourself in the here and now, because you recognize that it doesn't even matter.  Motives, then, become, at least in my opinion/observation, more "pure."  The former selfish element behind it no longer matters because you realize your purpose isn't working toward gaining anything for yourself.

 

I don't honestly think Christians are even aware that they do this.  I certainly wasn't.  I didn't even really realize I'd been this way until I began reflecting on this a few days ago, comparing how I approach "doing good" then vs. now.  

 

I consider myself good with words, but I still think I have a hard time articulating my thoughts in any sort of way that makes sense to anyone sometimes.  Hopefully (maybe?) that offers some clarification as to what I was thinking/trying to explain.

[Lilith666]

Also, I think Christians convince themselves they're only good because of the holy spirit. I heard of a guy who said that if it weren't for Jesus, he'd be raping and murdering people. But I find this hard to believe, because if this were true, he would be evil, and his evilness would show. Which we know because we don't believe in a magical ghost that changes people's nature. Christians tend to believe everything the church tells them, even that they are inherently sinful, so they are likely to believe they would be doing whatever they felt like without Jesus there to stop them. And I think this is tied to the humble-superior attitude of "I myself am pond scum, but I'm holy now because Jesus saved me!" Christianity is such a weird combination of self-loathing and smugness.

[GirlOnFire]

I've had that conversation with a few people recently; that my inner nature hasn't really changed, only my belief/disbelief in biblegod.  I am no more or less likely to hurt, maim, or kill anyone than when I was a Christian.  I am no more or less likely to help someone in need.  I am no more or less selfish than I was before.  I am no more or less likely to do something to harm myself, or someone else, or an animal.  I am good because of how I was raised and culturally socialized, what I'm biologically programmed to believe is evolutionarily beneficial to myself and the human specie as a whole, and my own moral compass....and that doesn't change because of my religious views (or lack thereof)!!!  This is exactly why I think the whole idea of original sin and needing to be saved from our inherent sin nature is a complete load of crap!  I just cannot, do not believe that people are born awful and the only cure is the embracing of one specific - out of thousands - religion and it's standards for living (which, let's face it, are not that different than any other standard of living, be that atheist, agnostic, Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, new age, or any other belief system out there).  To believe people are all bad and need to be "indoctrinated into goodness" is both illogical and really arrogant.

[disillusioned]

In reply to the OP, I must say that it is ever so much worse than this. To be a Christian is, in my view, in itself the very essence of hubris. In order to be a Christian, you must believe that God has created the entire universe with you in mind. The proposition that the Creator of the Universe wants to have a personal relationship with you is perhaps the most arrogant thing that anyone could ever claim. The Christian, of necessity, believes that she knows the will of God. This is an extremely presumptuous belief, and that is putting it about as mildly as it can possibly be put.

 

 

I've had that conversation with a few people recently; that my inner nature hasn't really changed, only my belief/disbelief in biblegod.  I am no more or less likely to hurt, maim, or kill anyone than when I was a Christian.  I am no more or less likely to help someone in need.  I am no more or less selfish than I was before.  I am no more or less likely to do something to harm myself, or someone else, or an animal.  I am good because of how I was raised and culturally socialized, what I'm biologically programmed to believe is evolutionarily beneficial to myself and the human specie as a whole, and my own moral compass....and that doesn't change because of my religious views (or lack thereof)!!!  This is exactly why I think the whole idea of original sin and needing to be saved from our inherent sin nature is a complete load of crap!  I just cannot, do not believe that people are born awful and the only cure is the embracing of one specific - out of thousands - religion and it's standards for living (which, let's face it, are not that different than any other standard of living, be that atheist, agnostic, Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, new age, or any other belief system out there).  To believe people are all bad and need to be "indoctrinated into goodness" is both illogical and really arrogant.

Yes. And we need to remember that they most likely did not make a conscious choice to believe that nonsense, they were indoctrinated into it. That is why we should not be too quick to judge. We were there, and we are now embarrassed to have believed that. But we still believe we were good people. In all likelihood, many of them are too. They just don't know it yet.

 

 

Schnoogle, I agree with the sentiment, but not with the minutiae of your reply. We should not be embarrassed to have believed in Christianity. If you were indoctrinated then you absolutely have nothing to be embarrassed about. You were lied to by people that you trusted. There is nothing embarrassing about that. But even if you came to belief as an adult, I'm still not sure that you should be ashamed. You made a mistake. You've recognized it and moved on. There's nothing to be ashamed of about that. We all make lots of mistakes. The important thing is what we do when we realize that we've erred. There is no shame in being wrong. So long as we can recognize our errors and move on, we have nothing to be ashamed of.

 

But I think that we do find ourselves in a position to evaluate Christian hypocrisy precisely because it used to be our belief. This is judgement of a kind, but I think that it is a righteous judgement (if you will forgive the turn of phrase). Certainly it is true that many Christians are decent people. But their beliefs are hideous. They are wrong, and if they refuse to recognize this then they should not be surprised when they find themselves judged by us. We are not being quick to judge. The deconversion process is not short. But there comes a point when the jury is in. We've reached our conclusions. Christianity has been weighed in the balance and found wanting. There is no reason why we should pretend as if this is not the case.

[GirlOnFire]

....

 

But I think that we do find ourselves in a position to evaluate Christian hypocrisy precisely because it used to be our belief. This is judgement of a kind, but I think that it is a righteous judgement (if you will forgive the turn of phrase). Certainly it is true that many Christians are decent people. But their beliefs are hideous. They are wrong, and if they refuse to recognize this then they should not be surprised when they find themselves judged by us. We are not being quick to judge. The deconversion process is not short. But there comes a point when the jury is in. We've reached our conclusions. Christianity has been weighed in the balance and found wanting. There is no reason why we should pretend as if this is not the case.

This last paragraph hits the nail on the head of what I was trying to explain!  Thank you, disillusioned, for explaining that in a way that made a lot more sense than all my rambling!

[disillusioned]

I get what you are saying, but I still have a problem with the original post that assumes all christians are selfish at their Core, and atheists/agnostics are not ever selfish at the core. I have seen evidence to the contrary in both cases. I prefer to give individuals benefit of the doubt, and not automatically place them in the category of selfish, until they show themselves to be so. In fact, making such assumptions is very similar to what many (not all) christians do when talking about atheists.

That's fair enough. I would say that Christians and atheists/agnostics may be equally selfish in practice. But the issue remains that there is nothing inherently selfish about atheism or agnosticism. The same may not be said of Christianity. The entire belief system is completely and utterly selfish. This is often not recognized or even understood by the believers. And it certainly is the case that atheists and agnostics can be horrendously selfish. But this is not a direct consequence of their worldview.

 

The Christian True Believer, on the other hand, genuinely thinks that he is the object of a divine plan. He truly believes that he has access to the one and only Absolute Truth. I submit that this belief is inherently self-centered and arrogant. I don't see any way around this. Of course, the Christian might otherwise be a decent person, and the atheist might be a jerk. But that does not change the fact that the Christian's worldview is inherently selfish and the atheist's is not.

[disillusioned]

 

....

 

But I think that we do find ourselves in a position to evaluate Christian hypocrisy precisely because it used to be our belief. This is judgement of a kind, but I think that it is a righteous judgement (if you will forgive the turn of phrase). Certainly it is true that many Christians are decent people. But their beliefs are hideous. They are wrong, and if they refuse to recognize this then they should not be surprised when they find themselves judged by us. We are not being quick to judge. The deconversion process is not short. But there comes a point when the jury is in. We've reached our conclusions. Christianity has been weighed in the balance and found wanting. There is no reason why we should pretend as if this is not the case.

This last paragraph hits the nail on the head of what I was trying to explain!  Thank you, disillusioned, for explaining that in a way that made a lot more sense than all my rambling!

 

 

You give yourself too little credit. I found your thoughts very interesting.

[Mike D]

Whereas, the atheist/agnostic has no ulterior motive.  When we do good deeds for others, it's not coming from an underlying selfish motivation.  We do good simply because we want to do good and make the world a better place, because we don't honestly care what is or isn't in it for us.

 

Hmm..... maybe I am the black sheep atheist of the family.

 

I don't know about other atheists, but when I do something nice for someone it is usually because I want something.   Basically I don't do anything unless there is something in it for me.  Isn't that just human nature?

 

As for making the world a better place, I am concerned first and foremost about making my own world a better place for me.   But again, isn't that human nature?

 

Hey, at least I am honest unlike those lying Christians

[Sybaris]

 

 

Everything Christians (and probably other religions, too, I'm just not personally very familiar with any others) do is done out of selfish motive; it's all about what they are getting for themselves.

 

 

This is why I never understood mission trips to industrialized predominately christian countries

[★ Citsonga ★]

I dunno. In my experience most truly kind people are that way because it comes naturally to them, christians and non-christians. It's who they want to be. They would find a reason to be kind and generous, no matter what. Others, christian and non christian, because of their personality, have to work at it harder because they want the appreciation and social benefits of community, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Also, "People are people wherever you go." I'm sure there are just as many atheists and agnostics with an ever present mindset of selfishness as there are christians. They just don't appear as hypocritical because they are not making claims about their righteousness.

 

Some aspects of christianity, and religion in general, do engender specific kinds of selfishness, which can run rampant. However, I think it is unfair to paint every single christian with a broad brush of selfishness. We all tend to go in the direction our upbringing and inclinations lead us, unless we make an effort at objective self examination, usually a difficult thing. We who have made the effort, can be like the ex smoker who can't stand to be around those who smoke. I've certainly felt that way at times, but that is also a little selfish.

 

At one point in my christian life, I had come to the conclusion that I was not any better than a non christian just by virtue of my beliefs, it was how I treated other people that mattered. "People are more important than rules" became one of my mottoes. I think it also applies to me as a non believer.

 

 

Yes. And we need to remember that they most likely did not make a conscious choice to believe that nonsense, they were indoctrinated into it. That is why we should not be too quick to judge. We were there, and we are now embarrassed to have believed that. But we still believe we were good people. In all likelihood, many of them are too. They just don't know it yet.

 

 

I get what you are saying, but I still have a problem with the original post that assumes all christians are selfish at their Core, and atheists/agnostics are not ever selfish at the core. I have seen evidence to the contrary in both cases. I prefer to give individuals benefit of the doubt, and not automatically place them in the category of selfish, until they show themselves to be so. In fact, making such assumptions is very similar to what many (not all) christians do when talking about atheists.

 

Full agreement here. I could not have said it better myself. People are people, and there are both good people and bad people in both camps.

[L.B.]

I would go further and say that there are no "camps" unless one insists upon believing in them.

 

I have stopped going to church, but my wife and children still do - but I would continue to be friendly, as I always have been, with Xtians around us, provided that our conversations could be frank and honest and not centered on "solving" the question of why I no longer associate with church.

 

I don't see these people as Christians first and foremost; I see them as people who happen to belong somewhere I no longer care to be. As long as they don't insist on only relating to me, and me to them, as Christian or non-Christian, then we can be at least civil and familiar if not friendly or relational in a deeper way.

 

We do have some acquaintances, however, who insist upon being seen as the Christians of Christians - and yet I need not worry about them; when they discover I have stopped attending church, I am almost positive that their attempts to stay in touch with us will dwindle and ultimately cease.

[Storm]

Even the most selfless people do those selfless things because it brings them joy or satisfaction. Those aren't things that are typically associated with selfishness, but at its most basic, the altruism that selfless people show still brings the giving person a benefit. Its a good type of selfish, if you will.

 

As a counselor, it brings me great joy and satisfaction in seeing people make the necessary changes in their lives to live happily and successfully. Sure, I get paid for it, but truthfully, no amount of money could ever exceed the genuine feeling of helping someone. The money is a benefit to me, but the real worth of what I do comes in seeing the success of my clients, and in knowing that I was able to help them get there.

[ConsiderTheSource]

I fully agree Girl On Fire. 

 

Remember.  Always remember.  It is always about Them.  Alwaysl

[★ Citsonga ★]

I would go further and say that there are no "camps" unless one insists upon believing in them.

 

Just to clarify, when I used the term "camps," it was just a generic term for two generalized groups, those who refer to themselves as Christians and those who refer to themselves as atheists. Nothing more than that was even remotely implied.