Subtle Ways To Hint (Or Test The Waters) That You No Longer Believe In Christianity

[Lyra]

Hi everyone,

 

I've seen a lot of posts asking how to tell your family/friends/partners that you're no longer a believer. In my experience, and in the experience of other non-religious folks I know in real life, it can be far easier and less dramatic to do more of a gradual path--i.e. dropping hints over time--instead of one, huge, "let's sit down, we have to talk, I'm an atheist" thing. I think a lot of blow-ups, tears, and other bad reactions happen when the religious person is shocked. (I learned this the hard way when I told my mom I'm a lesbian) In order to eliminate this shock factor, we can instead provide numerous, yet very subtle, hints over a stretch of time that indicate that you might be a non-believer. This way, the religious loved one can figure it out on their own through gently-planted seeds, instead of through a traumatic (for them) shattering revelation. Another beauty of this, is that one hint alone can't 100% out you. If you drop a subtle hint, and the person flips out to an extreme degree that makes you realize that coming out would be a bad idea, you can always downplay it with "no, i'm still Christian, I just had one doubt/question about this specific thing" or whatever. 

This approach won't work for everyone--maybe some people prefer the bandaid-ripping effect of just doing it at once--but this could help those of us who may prefer to do it gradually, and/or who want to test the waters with a loved one without actually coming out, in order to see how it might go.

 

So without further ado, here are some ways to "hint." Maybe other people here too can add their own, so we can have a nice list of ideas.

 

- Gently inquire about the nastier parts of the bible: god sending bears to eat the kids for making fun of his prophet, giving the Sodom and Gomorrah people permission to rape Lot's daughters, killing the innocent Egyptian first-born sons who were often just toddlers, the Great Flood which would have killed lots of innocents, etc. You don't even have to do this in an argumentative, "I hate the bible now" type of way. You could pose it like "I want to understand God, why would he condone such a thing?" But you're drawing the religious person's attention to that part of the bible, and they might have never seen the odious parts before.

 

- Bring up cool science discoveries or theories that diverge from blindly believing fundy crap. Or even just ask theoretical questions. "What do you think the earliest types of humanoids looked like?" "I read this cool science article on the cause of near-death-experiences." "I can't say for certain that there are UFOs, but the universe is so vast that I think there must be other types of intelligent beings besides just people, somewhere on other planets. It's good to keep an open mind to all the possibilities, but we can never know for sure." 

 

- Get a blatantly obviously atheist book, like "The God Delusion" or "Steps for Creating an Atheist." Leave this somewhere like in your backpack, on your headboard, or someplace else where it might be found. If the religious person freaks out and you can tell it's about to go south, you can say that you got it in order to help understand atheists so that you can convert them (bleck) if you realize you can't honestly discuss the subject.

 

- Bring up cool things from other religions. "If Hindu re-incarnation turned out to be real, what kind of next life do you think you'd have?" This doesn't necessarily say "i'm an atheist" but it gives the hint that you aren't solidly locked in the box of christianity.

 

- If your situation allows for it, voice your opinion on issues that diverge from stereotypical/expected Christian thinking. For example, find a way to mention briefly in passing that you're pro-choice, or that you support gay equal rights, etc.

 

- Talk about other people's issues with religion. "So Jessica from high school told me she stopped going to church because she says the claims of Christianity are just too crazy. The creator of the universe is forced to send all of us to hell for eternity, because the first humans ate fruit, and the only way to stop it was to come down as a human and die so that we could go to heaven if we truly believed it's real? Jessica thinks that's nuts."

 

- Ask hard questions about the fundamental claims of Christianity. Don't approach this like a challenge or profession of doubt, just like you're truly trying to understand. Why couldn't God have just destroyed Hell if he didn't want us to go there? Why would a loving god torture people forever for thinking that a different religion is the right one? Why would salvation require a Christ sacrifice in the first place?

 

So what are some more? What are some other ways to hint that you don't believe in Christianity, and/or test the subject before making the decision whether or not to share that you don't believe?

[LogicalFallacy]

Good suggestions Lyra.

 

I think a good point to start also is think about yourself, the people you wish to tell, and how ridged and or fundamentalist your church is. Then decide on an approach that will hopefully leave relationships changed (Because they will change) but intact.

 

Some conversations may be met with what I call insta-walls. Kind of auto responses. Example "Science says this" auto response "science is of the devil/evil etc". Or "Moses told the Hebrews to enslave and rape teen girls" auto response "that was Gods will". So do be prepared for these kickbacks.

 

I am personally thinking about going down a scientific line by bring up news items. : "Oh did you see that 66 million year old T-Rex skull they found. So awesome" That may start a the earth is 6000 years old discussion (At which point I'll probably lose my subtly and go nuclear)

 

I have personally discussed the flood. Bringing up the problem of the earth being flooded... presumably with millions of cubic kilometers of FRESH water... so what happened to the salt water sea life? Real answer was "there was only lakes back then, everything was fresh water" Me "Ok, so, how did the freshwater fish become saltwater fish at the end of the flood" A bit of stony atmosphere... God did it.... ok So I have an idea of what to expect with these kind of conversations.

 

That's my 2 cents worth for now.

[florduh]

I always wonder why it is we who must tread carefully for fear of offending, disappointing or outraging those with a differing opinion. Why must we always be the ones on the defensive? We have as much right to our views as anyone else. I put up with them and they can put up with me. We are equals, and I refuse to cower before them. That's not to say I want to be argumentative or try to sway them or prove a point, but I refuse to submit to their intimidation and emotional blackmail just because I don't share their beliefs. We all need to grow a pair and demand some respect and equality.

[dangitbobby83]

I get the point of this, but I agree with florduh. 

 

Honestly - if you feel you have to do this, just don't tell people at all you're not christian. 

[Thought2Much]

I think it depends on the circumstances. If you're dealing with someone you plan on living with for any length of time (such as a spouse), I can see the need to take the measured approach. Likewise with anyone that you think would try to hold this over your head regarding your employment.

 

Everyone else? Fuck 'em.

[Guest]

Thank you, Lyra. My mother has yet to hear that I am not merely "lost and confused" about my faith but that I am an atheist. Last time we spoke, I told her I was agnostic. Which she took to mean that I had been so hurt by religion that I didn't want to follow God. Little does she know, I am not bitter, but I merely do not see the truth in Christianity nor proof for god. Rather than hinting, I think I may need to tell her flat-out. I'm not sure what my best course of action is. I want to tell her so that she stops badgering me about my beliefs and inviting me to church. Any ideas?

[midniterider]

So what are some more? What are some other ways to hint that you don't believe in Christianity, and/or test the subject before making the decision whether or not to share that you don't believe?

 

I guess it depends on the person you're dealing with and their level of conviction about what they believe. Some things (religious or otherwise) are sometimes best left unsaid. I think it's good to display a certain amount of compassion and acceptance (or faux acceptance, at least) for someone's kooky ideas (like Jesus,). If you're lucky they will feel compelled to not go ballistic when you discuss your world view (kooky ideas in their eyes). 

 

Be more compassionate than Jesus. Whip up some good stuff for your Christian target such as, "If I were Jesus, I would take ALL my children to heaven with me (unless someone didnt want to go) ... I would have infinite compassion for everyone."

 

"If I was Jesus I would not care if someone was gay. It's irrelevant."

 

"If I was Jesus I would not demand 24/7 worship/prayer/adulation. What's the point?"

 

And if a Christian is impressed by your compassionate heart and asks if you're a Christian say, "No, I'm an atheist." It'll blow their mind.

[Lyra]

I absolutely love the "If I was Jesus" approach. That's golden.

 

I understand with the "purist"/"Just either tell them or don't" mindset, but in reality, some people do have situations where they may need to drop hints or be strategical. For instance, if you're raising young kids atheist and they're visiting religious grandparents, it's likely that the beans will be spilled by the kid if not by you. Or if you just have to tell the truth because you don't want to live a lie anymore, but are concerned what the repercussions could be. Or if you're in a Christian setting and trying to fish for like-minded people in a group, etc. 

[LogicalFallacy]

I have come up with another subtle way of 'hinting' that you might not be a believer any more. When an enthusiastic christian is making some statement that gets a usual chorus of agreement or nods do nothing. Just sit there. So in a family situation (I did this last night) and people are talking about stuff just don't make any agreement to stuff you know is wrong or disagree with. This should hint at you not agreeing with it, but very subtly - you can't be accused of coming out with a hand grenade. If questioned you can then use one of the tips above, maybe ask open ended questions that may indicate what you think, but is not explicitly state by you.

[florduh]

Why is it that Christians don't have to "test the waters" and make "subtle hints" about what they believe? They can just get in your face and demand that you agree. A non-believer often dare not even express his opinion, much less ask anyone to agree with him.

 

This is bullshit. Who can change this dynamic and expectation? Hint: it won't be the Christians.

[MOHO]

Florduh is, of course, right on the money!

 

However, regarding family and especially a spouse, telling the truth that religions are horse hucky and resisting efforts to reconvert you result in a tremendous amount of emotionaly termoil. At least that's how it went for me.

 

Did I make a horrendous mistake in pretending to reconvert? - Hell yes. But I was under duress from the pending divorce and could not think clearly.

 

Will there be turmoil, stress, conflict, hard feelings if I come out yet again. Hell yes.

Divorce? - Most likely. (No marriage can/should continue if one spouse believes the other is an amoral bastard).

 

Is continuing the way things are stressful and harmful? That's BIG Hell yes!!!

 

The latter, however, is a slow burning under the surface stress that could go on ad nauseum.  Coming out again will be like jumping out of the slow cooker and into the fire.

 

Approach/avoidance conflict anyone?

[LogicalFallacy]

Why is it that Christians don't have to "test the waters" and make "subtle hints" about what they believe? They can just get in your face and demand that you agree. A non-believer often dare not even express his opinion, much less ask anyone to agree with him.

 

This is bullshit. Who can change this dynamic and expectation? Hint: it won't be the Christians.

This thread is specifically about how to carefully leave a church, and I think in particular regards to family and friends who are Christians.

 

Some of us wish to try and keep existing relationships intact and cause as little damage as possible, while still making our position clear. Some of us family they love, and going in with ak47's and hand grenades will cause a lot of relationship damage. Going nuclear is usually a no return result.

 

If its just some random Christian off the street challenging me then yep, full on ion cannons baby. But when leaving a church with family and friends I think more thought needs to be put into it. The likelihood is that you will have to talk to them in the future, and much better (I believe) if the relationship is at least amicable.

[LogicalFallacy]

PS A lot will of course depend on the nature of your relationships with others. (MOHO just pointed out a dicey situation that I'm not facing, but is similar to ChilledMilk)

[tycoondon]

I always wonder why it is we who must tread carefully for fear of offending, disappointing or outraging those with a differing opinion. Why must we always be the ones on the defensive? We have as much right to our views as anyone else. I put up with them and they can put up with me. We are equals, and I refuse to cower before them. That's not to say I want to be argumentative or try to sway them or prove a point, but I refuse to submit to their intimidation and emotional blackmail just because I don't share their beliefs. We all need to grow a pair and demand some respect and equality.

 

If you've always been an atheist, then by all means, you shouldn't have to subtly do anything you don't want to or be anything you're not.  And if you are talking to someone who never knew you when you were a Christian, then to THAT PERSON, you've always been an atheist, so the same rule applies.  But when you used to be a Christian and you are dealing with relationships that were created while you were a Christian and that's what they came to know you as and rely on you to be, then you have a bait and switch feeling to deal with among those people.  And, even though I'm not a Christian anymore, I can very much understand and empathize with the fact that they feel baited and switched when it comes to their relationship with me.  It's like I told a boss of a job I quit one time because they changed the entire terms and scope of the job.  You changed in midstream when I relied on what you said the job would be when I took it.  Since you're the one that changed in midstream, I get to decide I'm upset/aggravated enough to quit over it.  In the event of a relationship where you don't want or can't afford the person to "quit" you over changing who you are on them mid-stream, then you have to be careful, deliberate, slow (in some cases), and methodical.  "Screw 'em" is not the appropriate response in these particular relationships.

[florduh]

 

I always wonder why it is we who must tread carefully for fear of offending, disappointing or outraging those with a differing opinion. Why must we always be the ones on the defensive? We have as much right to our views as anyone else. I put up with them and they can put up with me. We are equals, and I refuse to cower before them. That's not to say I want to be argumentative or try to sway them or prove a point, but I refuse to submit to their intimidation and emotional blackmail just because I don't share their beliefs. We all need to grow a pair and demand some respect and equality.

 

If you've always been an atheist, then by all means, you shouldn't have to subtly do anything you don't want to or be anything you're not.  And if you are talking to someone who never knew you when you were a Christian, then to THAT PERSON, you've always been an atheist, so the same rule applies.  But when you used to be a Christian and you are dealing with relationships that were created while you were a Christian and that's what they came to know you as and rely on you to be, then you have a bait and switch feeling to deal with among those people.  And, even though I'm not a Christian anymore, I can very much understand and empathize with the fact that they feel baited and switched when it comes to their relationship with me.  It's like I told a boss of a job I quit one time because they changed the entire terms and scope of the job.  You changed in midstream when I relied on what you said the job would be when I took it.  Since you're the one that changed in midstream, I get to decide I'm upset/aggravated enough to quit over it.  In the event of a relationship where you don't want or can't afford the person to "quit" you over changing who you are on them mid-stream, then you have to be careful, deliberate, slow (in some cases), and methodical.  "Screw 'em" is not the appropriate response in these particular relationships.

 

True enough, but consider how different things are when a spouse from a non-religious marriage comes home one day exclaiming, "I'm saved! YOU need to go to church with me!" Do Christians ever give any thought to changing the dynamic of a relationship? In two words, HELL NO.

 

Of course nobody seeks conflict, but this religious/non-religious scenario is totally one sided to the point that one who can no longer believe feels he must just shut the hell up and take it very slowly, if at all. I don't understand why it always works that way.

[MOHO]

"Of course nobody seeks conflict, but this religious/non-religious scenario is totally one sided to the point that one who can no longer believe feels he must just shut the hell up and take it very slowly, if at all. I don't understand why it always works that way."

 

Florduh,

Even though I'm in a touchy situation what you described above burns my ass as well. The solution, as I see it, is for weenies like me to push back. Eventually, I hope, others will see who I am and that I am not a horrible, nasty monster.

[tycoondon]

Guys, in a few short years this won't matter anymore.  The church is full of mostly blue hairs.  That's who goes every week, they're the only ones going other than on Sunday morning (and many aren't even doing that because churches are stopping Sunday evening and Wednesday evening services), and most importantly, the blue hairs are the ones who tithe.  Church attendance, baptisms, and tithing are all taking a dive over the last 10 years and I've seen projections that if the next 10 years is as bad (and they fear that it will be because they know there is no way for them to stop demographics), that the number of churches folding up will increase dramatically over the next 10 to 20 years.  The American Psychological Association (APA) has managed to quietly get Congress to authorize removing kids from Christian homes in situations where wacky religious parents do things like hold out medical treatment for kids because they want to "pray away" the disease.  These kinds of efforts will also be expanded as Christian power continues to fade.  When the blue hairs die off, the tithes will dry up.  First, the churches will cut missions...the money they send to outside groups to "share the gospel" with the excuse that finite resources need to be directed to the needs closest to home.  Then they'll cut political influence efforts because they won't have the money for that either.  Finally, after more money dries up, they'll have no choice but to cut staff.  Young people are already shunning the idea of going into the ministry because they know that there is no job security long term in being a pastor or any church employee.  It's a big downward spiral that is going to speed up and get worse.  Christianity will be dead as a formal religion in this country in the next decade to two.  Then we'll have to train our rifles metaphorically on Islam which is on the rise.  But the reason this is relevant to this thread is because soon it will not be necessary to tiptoe around Christians.  They will hold no influence, they will get used to nobody caring what they think, and they will come to consider it fruitless to try to drive the conversation.  It can't come soon enough.

[Jeff]

this disco used to be a cute cathedral

[mwc]

     We have to tread lightly simply because, even around here, we have to tread lightly.  Don't forget there's a walled garden that's sprouted up here over the course of years and it's not exactly a free-speech zone.  Anyone who is aware of it's evolution to it's current state can see how these things go.  It's easy to say we should simply just say what we want and let the others deal with it but the fact is when that happens the defenses go up and you get things like the walled garden and the special conditions.  And I know for a fact this is such a sore area that if this gets discussed too much the hammer comes down.  My point is not to discuss the validity of the walled garden but the whole result of getting too in your face with some people and some topics.

 

          mwc

[GuyGone]

I realize I'm the one who is out of step here, but Christians aren't all kooks and they don't control the culture, and nobody needs to walk on eggshells around them.  They deserve the same decency that you would show to someone who is firmly convinced that their copper bracelet helps their arthritis.  Nobody likes the person who has to go around proving everyone else wrong, regardless of the topic.

 

I know someone who is a Christian and is dealing with a difficult and possibly fatal medical situation.  They believe that God has things under control.  They see events relating to medical procedures as God's timing for things.  I'm not going to try to convince them to become an atheist by demanding that they agree with me that if God had it under control, why did they get sick in the first place?  If belief in God makes it easier for them to get through this difficult time, and makes them fear death less, are any of us really obligated to argue with them about it?

 

I know someone who won't buy Firestone tires because 15 or so years ago, they had a problem with catastrophic failure in one model of their tires.  At this point, it's silly to base a purchase decision on that.  But I don't argue with them about it.

 

I think sometimes leaving faith makes us want to lash out at those still in it.  We don't want to treat them as decently as we would the guy at the office who believes his comb-over really looks good.  We don't have to hide who we are.  But we don't have to smash it into other people's faces like a cream pie or treat them with disrespect.  Being an atheist is one thing.  Defining yourself as one, and making it the one thing that you want other people to recognize about you is, well, problematic.

[mwc]

Nobody likes the person who has to go around proving everyone else wrong, regardless of the topic.

     How can anyone attempt a meaningful response to you now?

 

          mwc

[florduh]

I realize I'm the one who is out of step here, but Christians aren't all kooks and they don't control the culture, and nobody needs to walk on eggshells around them.  They deserve the same decency that you would show to someone who is firmly convinced that their copper bracelet helps their arthritis.  Nobody likes the person who has to go around proving everyone else wrong, regardless of the topic.

 

I know someone who is a Christian and is dealing with a difficult and possibly fatal medical situation.  They believe that God has things under control.  They see events relating to medical procedures as God's timing for things.  I'm not going to try to convince them to become an atheist by demanding that they agree with me that if God had it under control, why did they get sick in the first place?  If belief in God makes it easier for them to get through this difficult time, and makes them fear death less, are any of us really obligated to argue with them about it?

 

I know someone who won't buy Firestone tires because 15 or so years ago, they had a problem with catastrophic failure in one model of their tires.  At this point, it's silly to base a purchase decision on that.  But I don't argue with them about it.

 

I think sometimes leaving faith makes us want to lash out at those still in it.  We don't want to treat them as decently as we would the guy at the office who believes his comb-over really looks good.  We don't have to hide who we are.  But we don't have to smash it into other people's faces like a cream pie or treat them with disrespect.  Being an atheist is one thing.  Defining yourself as one, and making it the one thing that you want other people to recognize about you is, well, problematic.

I think the issue here is not that the mean old atheists are disrespecting Christians and forcing their (dis) belief on them. It's about the fact that those who see the light and stop believing all that stuff are too often afraid to even let their Christian friends and relatives know they hold a different opinion because it is the Christians who frequently show no respect or tolerance for non-belief. We have learned to fear their judgment and emotional blackmail. We often must watch our step lest we disappoint or otherwise upset the Christian spouse/mother/whomever while they are granted free reign to preach to and belittle us for not agreeing with them. We sometimes forget we are equally entitled to our opinions and that there is no such thing as conditional love.

[MOHO]

Exactly, Florduh!

 

Guygone:

It's not that we want to get in the face of every xtian (or even one unless THEY bring it up) and deconvert them on the spot. The point here is we should not have to walk on eggshells and repsect the xtian intolerance or cower in the face of there brow-beating us.

 

Also, there is the harm that the docterine can do one's psyche - especially the little ones who might be tempted to join the good news club - not really knowing what the hell that is.

 

In short - not asking to force myself on everyone - just asking the fundies to respect my decisions.

[tycoondon]

I realize I'm the one who is out of step here, but Christians aren't all kooks and they don't control the culture, and nobody needs to walk on eggshells around them.  They deserve the same decency that you would show to someone who is firmly convinced that their copper bracelet helps their arthritis.  Nobody likes the person who has to go around proving everyone else wrong, regardless of the topic.

 

I know someone who is a Christian and is dealing with a difficult and possibly fatal medical situation.  They believe that God has things under control.  They see events relating to medical procedures as God's timing for things.  I'm not going to try to convince them to become an atheist by demanding that they agree with me that if God had it under control, why did they get sick in the first place?  If belief in God makes it easier for them to get through this difficult time, and makes them fear death less, are any of us really obligated to argue with them about it?

 

I know someone who won't buy Firestone tires because 15 or so years ago, they had a problem with catastrophic failure in one model of their tires.  At this point, it's silly to base a purchase decision on that.  But I don't argue with them about it.

 

I think sometimes leaving faith makes us want to lash out at those still in it.  We don't want to treat them as decently as we would the guy at the office who believes his comb-over really looks good.  We don't have to hide who we are.  But we don't have to smash it into other people's faces like a cream pie or treat them with disrespect.  Being an atheist is one thing.  Defining yourself as one, and making it the one thing that you want other people to recognize about you is, well, problematic.

 

Guygone,

 

I think you probably meant well and that this strawman argument is perhaps not intentional on your part but a misinterpretation of what this thread was about.  Florduh has it right here.  He is saying we shouldn't have to act any different around a Christian than an atheist.  They certainly don't act any different around an atheist than they do a Christian.  Wanting to avoid having to tip toe around them is NOT EQUAL to, or even close to, wanting to bulldoze them over.  But it is highly annoying that they live in an alternate reality that only tangentially joins the real world.  We don't want to indulge that and shouldn't normally do so.  But there are some special circumstances where we do which were discussed in this thread.  Florduh was simply saying (if I understand him correctly and he's certainly welcome to correct me) is that he thinks the special circumstances are largely a result of Christians acting in a way that demands it when we seemingly get to make no such demands that they stop acting like religion is real or that they accommodate us.  And that is an unfair and unequal current reality.  But the good news is that it is changing slowly.

[GuyGone]

I understand the responses.  If you read my original post over on the extimony page (I'm sure you all have nothing else to do), I originally wrote my ebook because I felt that I went through the process alone and there were other people who felt the same way - I wrote it for them (and maybe for me too, a little).  I didn't tell my wife the extent of it until the book was finished and I gave  her a copy.  And, like a lot of you, I didn't know if her reaction would be horror, disgust, I-want-a-divorce (although I was pretty sure it wouldn't go there) or something more accepting.  So I'm not denying that it's hard to express that because you don't know how others will react.

 

My only objection is to those who feel a need to confront (for lack of a better word) those who disagree. The in-your-face attitude is more objectionable than the atheism itself.

 

I've thought about how I'll handle my friend who is dealing with the medical issue.  When it's all done, if he survives, I'm sure we'll all have dinner.  He'll tell us how faithful God was through this entire thing.  I have three choices.  First is to ignore it, and that's a viable option because his belief in God doesn't hurt me.  Second is to tell him that there is no God so get over it (or some nicer version of the same thing).  The third is to tell him that it wasn't God that got him through it, it was his supportive wife, his competent doctors, and his own internal ability to face and cope with adversity.  In other words, if he wants to think it was God, that's fine, but God is unnecessary because he had everything he needed.  I'm leaning toward the third one.  Because it's "for" not "against", it's about making him better, not making him worse.  Building him up instead of tearing his faith down.

 

I get the issues of living a lie or even just a non-stated truth that everyone assumes isn't true.  I've done it.  I still do it; my friend that I referred to thinks I'm still a Christian.  My wife is a person who needs to know, and I finally told her (well, I gave her the book to read).  My friend - it's not so important whether he knows, although if he asks I'll tell him.