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Goodbye Jesus

Who Bought The Potter's Field?


SkepticalDaniel

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Matthew 27:3-8 "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day."

 

Acts 1:16-18 "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity;and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

 

In Matthew 27, we see Judas throw the money into the temple, and after hanging himselfs, Chief Priest buys a potters field under council. In Acts 1, we see that it's Judas who buys the field.

 

Some apologist will try to rationalize this by saying that Judas bought it posthumously, because the money still belonged to him. Does that make any sense? I think not.

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On one hand, such discrepancies are usually excused by believers "Oh eyewitness accounts often vary a bit, and that's how we know they are trustworthy!" Until we point out that these gospel accounts also give detailed conversations that took place between Pilate and ruling Jewish leaders that the "eyewitnesses" could not have heard. "Oh, well Jesus probably told them", but it doesn't say that he did, "Well how else would they have known?" They didn't. They made it up. It's a story, not history or an eyewitness account. "Well if that's what you want to BELIEVE..."

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I think its safe to say that if you have to rationalize isssues away in your holy book that proves people were making shit up.

 

And yeah on a superficial level that point about it being disimilar establishes it being geniune would work it wasnt a convoluted mess and just different wording.

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Claiming that Judas bought the field because his money was used is nonsense. The story in Matthew clearly has Judas return the money, so the money was no longer his, and he had no involvement in the decision to use the money to buy the field.

 

Besides, there are also two other glaring contradictions in these short passages: First, they disagree on how Judas died; second, (see Acts 1:19, which is the very next verse after the portion quoted in the OP) they disagree on why the field was named Field of Blood.

 

That's three separate contradictions in the space of just a few verses. These accounts clearly are not the least bit reliable.

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Claiming that Judas bought the field because his money was used is nonsense. The story in Matthew clearly has Judas return the money, so the money was no longer his, and he had no involvement in the decision to use the money to buy the field.

 

Besides, there are also two other glaring contradictions in these short passages: First, they disagree on how Judas died; second, (see Acts 1:19, which is the very next verse after the portion quoted in the OP) they disagree on why the field was named Field of Blood.

 

That's three separate contradictions in the space of just a few verses. These accounts clearly are not the least bit reliable.

The prophecies are also taken out of their original contexts. Matthew 27:9-10 claims this fulfilled a prophecy of Jeremiah. However, first, Matthew quoted the wrong prophet here, as the prophecy is actually from Zechariah 11:12-13. Zechariah 11:12-13 in context is a longer passage about a good and evil shepherd. The good shepherd breaks his staff twice, to symbolize the breaking of the Yahweh's covenant with the nations and the breaking of the bond between Israel and Judah. The 30 pieces of silver were wages given to the good shepherd for his flock, then thrown to the potters in the Temple. There is nothing in the context there about a friend who would betray the Messiah or the purchase of a field. There is a reference in Jeremiah 32:6-9 that is also cited. But the context of Jeremiah 32:1-15 is all about Jeremiah purchasing a field from his cousin Hanamel, while Jerusalem was under siege from the Babylonians. Also, the field was purchased for 17 pieces of silver, not 30. There is nothing in the context here about the friend who would betray the Messiah, either. To make these Hebrew bible passages about Jesus, it requires taking the position that this is a midrash interpretation by Matthew.

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^^^ Very true, and also very typical. The NT repeatedly takes OT passages completely out of context like that. After contradictions like the ones mentioned in this thread started my doubting phase, the final blow to my faith was seeing how over and over again the NT's alleged fulfilled prophecies were nothing more than ripping OT verses completely out of context, sometimes even altering the quotations in order to try to make them fit. The very thing that was supposed to be the greatest proof of Christianity (fulfilled prophecies) turned out to be a total sham.

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     What's important is that these prophecies were fulfilled not the technicalities surrounding them like who prophesied what exactly.  If you prophesy a bit and I prophesy a bit and those bits are taken together as a larger, better, whole and that's what gets fulfilled then isn't that what matters?  Whatever you think the answer is the actual answer is that's what happened so it doesn't matter what your answer is.

 

          mwc

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So it doesn't matter that the 'virgin shall conceive' prophesy was 1) related to the current situation at the time, 2)mistranslated from young woman?

 

The problem is that any of us can prophesy a bit, add them together, apply them to an event and bingo prophesy fulfilled.

 

I will make a prophesy right now: "In the next year there will be an earthquake strike the west coast of the united states. This is God's wrath poured out on an unholy people"

 

I have given a specific event, for a specific location at a specific time, for a specific reason. I am guaranteed this prophesy to come to pass.

 

What's wrong with the prophesy?

 

Yet, most biblical prophesies are far less detailed and far more ambiguous. Yet they are declared to be fulfilled.

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^^^ Very true, and also very typical. The NT repeatedly takes OT passages completely out of context like that. After contradictions like the ones mentioned in this thread started my doubting phase, the final blow to my faith was seeing how over and over again the NT's alleged fulfilled prophecies were nothing more than ripping OT verses completely out of context, sometimes even altering the quotations in order to try to make them fit. The very thing that was supposed to be the greatest proof of Christianity (fulfilled prophecies) turned out to be a total sham.

I remember reading your ex-timony on here. I automatically assumed the fulfilled prophecies described in the NT were what they claimed and never thought to look further into them in the past. The thing that got me is thinking (and these are just rhetorical questions) how am I supposed to expect that an orthodox Jew should see these Bible passages as prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, when not only are they taken out of their original contexts, but many were not even prophecies in the first place?  Midrash notwithstanding, the Jews are supposed to believe their own scriptures say things other than what the text specifically states?  But according to Paul, the Jews were blinded to not understand their own scriptures, as "God gave them a sluggish spirit, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.” (Romans 11:8). If it takes this degree of hidden meanings for the theology to work, how can it really be trusted? For example, I believe Muslims claim that the reference in John 14:16, when Jesus says he will give another Advocate, is about Mohammed. How would we know that claim is not valid?

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So it doesn't matter that the 'virgin shall conceive' prophesy was 1) related to the current situation at the time, 2)mistranslated from young woman?

     Maybe it matters and maybe it doesn't.  Kind of depends on the person.  It clearly matters to you now.  That's not an attack or an insult.  Don't take it that way.  But try to go back a couple thousand years and imagine if you you be as critical of these things.  You'd likely be less educated (and considerably so) and by and large this is how this sort of business was done.  So it wouldn't be entirely out of the ordinary.  So would it matter to you then?  Under different conditions?  Would you notice a mistranslation (or know it had been translated at all for that matter)?  And would you maybe see things, events or parts thereof, as cyclical and so maybe it could apply to you even though it had happened in its entirety ages ago?

 

The problem is that any of us can prophesy a bit, add them together, apply them to an event and bingo prophesy fulfilled.

 

I will make a prophesy right now: "In the next year there will be an earthquake strike the west coast of the united states. This is God's wrath poured out on an unholy people"

 

I have given a specific event, for a specific location at a specific time, for a specific reason. I am guaranteed this prophesy to come to pass.

 

What's wrong with the prophesy?

 

Yet, most biblical prophesies are far less detailed and far more ambiguous. Yet they are declared to be fulfilled.

     Exactly.  Unless you think prophecy is real then it's simply someone just speculating and adding authority by saying god told them so.  Depending on the person that could mean they got it from a dream since dreams/visions were thought to be messages from gods.  So if you have earthquakes on the mind for one reason or another then have a vivid dream that you remember where the big quake hits in the next year and you see all this death and destruction that is a message from god telling you the future.  It would be remiss of you not to warn people.  This ignores people who hallucinated things for one reason or another.  Kings had lots of these nuts on staff just to prophecy for them to try to get and edge.

 

          mwc

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^^^ Very true, and also very typical. The NT repeatedly takes OT passages completely out of context like that. After contradictions like the ones mentioned in this thread started my doubting phase, the final blow to my faith was seeing how over and over again the NT's alleged fulfilled prophecies were nothing more than ripping OT verses completely out of context, sometimes even altering the quotations in order to try to make them fit. The very thing that was supposed to be the greatest proof of Christianity (fulfilled prophecies) turned out to be a total sham.

 

 

Keep in mind that back when the various books of the NT were being written, virtually everyone had no access to the OT, mostly because they were illiterate and/or because there were few copies available.  The NT authors, who were literate and had access to the OT, had no idea that their audience would (someday) be able to factcheck and rationally analyze for context, bias, etc.

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So it doesn't matter that the 'virgin shall conceive' prophesy was 1) related to the current situation at the time, 2)mistranslated from young woman?

     Maybe it matters and maybe it doesn't.  Kind of depends on the person.  It clearly matters to you now.  That's not an attack or an insult.  Don't take it that way.  But try to go back a couple thousand years and imagine if you you be as critical of these things.  You'd likely be less educated (and considerably so) and by and large this is how this sort of business was done.  So it wouldn't be entirely out of the ordinary.  So would it matter to you then?  Under different conditions?  Would you notice a mistranslation (or know it had been translated at all for that matter)?  And would you maybe see things, events or parts thereof, as cyclical and so maybe it could apply to you even though it had happened in its entirety ages ago?

 

That's completely beside the point, though. Just because the vast majority of people at that time were not equipped to see the problems does not make the problems nonexistent.

 

 

^^^ Very true, and also very typical. The NT repeatedly takes OT passages completely out of context like that. After contradictions like the ones mentioned in this thread started my doubting phase, the final blow to my faith was seeing how over and over again the NT's alleged fulfilled prophecies were nothing more than ripping OT verses completely out of context, sometimes even altering the quotations in order to try to make them fit. The very thing that was supposed to be the greatest proof of Christianity (fulfilled prophecies) turned out to be a total sham.

 

 

Keep in mind that back when the various books of the NT were being written, virtually everyone had no access to the OT, mostly because they were illiterate and/or because there were few copies available.  The NT authors, who were literate and had access to the OT, had no idea that their audience would (someday) be able to factcheck and rationally analyze for context, bias, etc.

 

I know. I wasn't addressing that side of things.

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So it doesn't matter that the 'virgin shall conceive' prophesy was 1) related to the current situation at the time, 2)mistranslated from young woman?

     Maybe it matters and maybe it doesn't.  Kind of depends on the person.  It clearly matters to you now.  That's not an attack or an insult.  Don't take it that way.  But try to go back a couple thousand years and imagine if you you be as critical of these things.  You'd likely be less educated (and considerably so) and by and large this is how this sort of business was done.  So it wouldn't be entirely out of the ordinary.  So would it matter to you then?  Under different conditions?  Would you notice a mistranslation (or know it had been translated at all for that matter)?  And would you maybe see things, events or parts thereof, as cyclical and so maybe it could apply to you even though it had happened in its entirety ages ago?

 

Certainly if I was an uneducated Bronze age peasant then maybe I wouldn't question. But on the other hand, what if I retained my natural curiosity, logical thinking and scepticism? Would that impact on the outcome?

 

My main point is that as we stand now, we (humanity) can look back and say yes, this was mistranslated and applied wrong therefore the reliability is suspect. Except many, many people in the world accept it because the bible says so.

 

Ezekiel 9 prophesies of Jerusalem being slaughtered. People say (And maybe the bible says) this was fulfilled by Titus sacking Jerusalem. But how does anyone know that it wasn't the Crusader slaughter of Jerusalem that fulfilled the prophesy. Or was it fulfilled twice, more that twice? How many times has Jerusalem been sacked?

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That's completely beside the point, though. Just because the vast majority of people at that time were not equipped to see the problems does not make the problems nonexistent.

 

 

Certainly if I was an uneducated Bronze age peasant then maybe I wouldn't question. But on the other hand, what if I retained my natural curiosity, logical thinking and scepticism? Would that impact on the outcome?

 

My main point is that as we stand now, we (humanity) can look back and say yes, this was mistranslated and applied wrong therefore the reliability is suspect. Except many, many people in the world accept it because the bible says so.

 

Ezekiel 9 prophesies of Jerusalem being slaughtered. People say (And maybe the bible says) this was fulfilled by Titus sacking Jerusalem. But how does anyone know that it wasn't the Crusader slaughter of Jerusalem that fulfilled the prophesy. Or was it fulfilled twice, more that twice? How many times has Jerusalem been sacked?

 

     Okay, maybe I missed the point that was being made.  I saw what I thought was "How could these things have happened?" and apparently that's not it. 

 

          mwc

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"How could of these things happened" As to how the people of 2000 years ago believe said prophesies?

 

Assuming that's what you mean, then I understand chow THEY could have. They didn't have science or the internet. 

 

I think you and I were talking about what humanity 'should' know and believe, but I was talking today, you were talking 2000 years ago :)

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"How could of these things happened" As to how the people of 2000 years ago believe said prophesies?

 

Assuming that's what you mean, then I understand chow THEY could have. They didn't have science or the internet. 

 

I think you and I were talking about what humanity 'should' know and believe, but I was talking today, you were talking 2000 years ago smile.png

     Yep.  A bit of a perspective disconnect.

 

     I just started the book When Prophecy Fails which is about cognitive dissonance (it tells about some folks who thought the world was going to be destroyed by aliens but it didn't pan out and how they dealt with the failure surrounding those prophecies).  I haven't had time to really get too far into it but it looks to be a good read.

 

     As it is it doesn't look like you can really counter failed prophecies with hard facts.  That just causes people to dig in further.  They seem to need to hit their own personal bottom to deal with these things (and if they can do something else to resolve that dissonance then they'll take that route instead...the less painful path).

 

          mwc

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mwc - I have actually seen this happen in my church (and other similar churches). Statements were made by a W M Branham (whose teachings are the basis of my church) to the effect of 1) man will never reach the moon. Made around 1963ish, and 2) man will find one day that he's looking in a circle back at himself (in relation to a planet being found outside the solar system, again around 1963)

 

 

To this day my father insists the moon landings were a hoax, and dismisses or ignores discoveries by astronomy.... like the universe is around 93 billion light years across! So much for looking in a circle. This is all feed from those two false statements/prophesises  (Branham made many 'prophesises' some were of events after the fact, the rest haven't happened, but people will still try and shoehorn in events to try and match prophesies)

 

Here's a good one for you, in the year 2000, down in the southern hemisphere the moon 'turned to blood' (This happened I saw it) Joel 2:31 says the moon shall be turned to blood in the coming of the great and dreadful day of the lord, Acts 2:20 repeats this.

 

Real event, I saw it, cameras caught it, its in the bible. Guess what my church thinks?

 

Then there's the blood moons of 2014 and 2015.

 

Now there is a perfectly rational scientific explanation of these events, yet millions today believe they were a direct sign from god about the coming end times.

 

So what happens when prophesy 'succeeds'?

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Alright! Enough!

 

I bought it. It was in foreclosure and I couldn't pass it up.

 

There. Settled.

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So what happens when prophesy 'succeeds'?

     I suppose I should recommend that book to you since it seems more relevant to you than myself.  :)

 

          mwc

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