Progress Update: First Major Hint Dropping.

[LogicalFallacy]

The world ends, Ex-C member held responsible, chaos ensues.

 

Ok nothing quite like that  

 

So today I got a genuine opportunity to do some real hint dropping. Basically in the Sunday morning service the pastor (my father) was preaching about Noah's ark, and Ken Ham etc and I thought oh here we go then he dropped a kinda bomb. Now 'we' *cough* them, are fundy literal god judging burning hell folks right... bear this in mind for whats next.

 

So dad then says "and Ken ham proved it, you can't fit all those animals in the ark!" And I'm like... oookkk cool, yep, but um don't we believe they did? No, he continues, it was supernatural. God had them go into the ark into another dimension for the duration of the flood. *Faceplam*

 

So this gives me a great opening during my Sunday lunch with them. I have a question says I, if the animals in the ark was supernatural, then what other parts of the flood was supernatural, and what other parts of the bible are supernatural as opposed to literal? What of all the water? What did animals eat upon coming out of the dimension? How did the earth repopulate with enough humans to build the tower of Bable so fast. Ick that incest????

 

So basically the answer was God regenerated the earth, supernatural things happen, and we must have faith because we don't have, and will never have all the answers. There were good measures of incredulity, god of the gaps, and a few logical fallacies (cue name) thrown in for good measure. Incest? Well the 3 wives were not related so there was a mix in the bloodline, and in a few generations the lines would have been well mixed. Not sure how satisfactory that answer is from a genetic point of view.

 

So really it boils down to supernatural and faith. Those I think are the answers I will get on any other question I broach, but I have at least let them know I'm willing to do some serious questioning. I didn't get a good answer as to what parts of the bible are literal and what are supernatural. I also mentioned the 4 million liters per day of water required for 2 million Hebrews in the desert, but got there would have been water and oasis. I'm pretty sure they missed the 4 million liters per day part.

 

A very interesting observation: Science was brought up as both evil, and "see science proves that the animals can't have fitted therefore god-did-it". So on one hand science is all wrong and evil, and on the other proving god.

 

Anyways that's my update. Any thoughts on how to tackle the it's supernatural answer as its really hard to argue against that. It's kind of a joker card.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Another dimension? Where do people come up with such lunacy?

 

Anyway, good luck in your future endeavors.

[TrueFreedom]

The best approach I've found is to ask good questions respectfully and allow people to answer for themselves.  It sounds like you're doing a fine job of that.

[Ellinas]

So, once again we have proof that Christian fundies are from another universe.

 

Don't be surprised if your questioning provokes a response at some point - they're going to want to try to confirm you in your faith.

[sdelsolray]

The special pleading fallacy is commonly used by Christian apologists.  It's a cheap, dishonest and easy to use fallacy.  E.g., the rules of physics, chemistry and biology don't apply to the animals on Noah's Ark.

 

Keep in mind that these apologists just make this stuff up.

[midniterider]

The world ends, Ex-C member held responsible, chaos ensues.

 

Ok nothing quite like that

 

So today I got a genuine opportunity to do some real hint dropping. Basically in the Sunday morning service the pastor (my father) was preaching about Noah's ark, and Ken Ham etc and I thought oh here we go then he dropped a kinda bomb. Now 'we' *cough* them, are fundy literal god judging burning hell folks right... bear this in mind for whats next.

 

So dad then says "and Ken ham proved it, you can't fit all those animals in the ark!" And I'm like... oookkk cool, yep, but um don't we believe they did? No, he continues, it was supernatural. God had them go into the ark into another dimension for the duration of the flood. *Faceplam*

 

So this gives me a great opening during my Sunday lunch with them. I have a question says I, if the animals in the ark was supernatural, then what other parts of the flood was supernatural, and what other parts of the bible are supernatural as opposed to literal? What of all the water? What did animals eat upon coming out of the dimension? How did the earth repopulate with enough humans to build the tower of Bable so fast. Ick that incest????

 

So basically the answer was God regenerated the earth, supernatural things happen, and we must have faith because we don't have, and will never have all the answers. There were good measures of incredulity, god of the gaps, and a few logical fallacies (cue name) thrown in for good measure. Incest? Well the 3 wives were not related so there was a mix in the bloodline, and in a few generations the lines would have been well mixed. Not sure how satisfactory that answer is from a genetic point of view.

 

So really it boils down to supernatural and faith. Those I think are the answers I will get on any other question I broach, but I have at least let them know I'm willing to do some serious questioning. I didn't get a good answer as to what parts of the bible are literal and what are supernatural. I also mentioned the 4 million liters per day of water required for 2 million Hebrews in the desert, but got there would have been water and oasis. I'm pretty sure they missed the 4 million liters per day part.

 

A very interesting observation: Science was brought up as both evil, and "see science proves that the animals can't have fitted therefore god-did-it". So on one hand science is all wrong and evil, and on the other proving god.

 

Anyways that's my update. Any thoughts on how to tackle the it's supernatural answer as its really hard to argue against that. It's kind of a joker card.

 

Why did God bother with an Ark if he was just going to supernatural everyone into another dimension? Why not just poof everything the way he wanted it to end up? The Ark-as-dimensional-portal idea is retarded. There's no reason to even build it. Why would God do stupid stuff if he is God?

 

And why doesn't any crazy stuff like this happen today? It's easy to say, " A long time ago X happened. " It can't be proven. Well, we see what reality is like today and I suspect it hasn't changed much, miracle-wise.

[LogicalFallacy]

Oh come now midniterider - you know we can't question what God does and why he does it.

 

Seriously, I asked pretty much the same question - why go to all the trouble of flooding the earth? Why not just kill everyone except Noah et al, then he wouldn't have had to put the animals in the ark in another dimension.

 

We can't question what god does was the reply.

 

Hell we can't! I can and I will. I'm not worshiping a god that appears less intelligent than me.... or just likes wasting extreme amounts of energy, and having things written in his perfect word that needs re interpreting to dimension because science proves the animals can't have fitted in the ark.

[ConsiderTheSource]

Sorry, you can't win. There is always some way to reinvent history. In their apologetics there is always some way for sun = moon, chocolate = vanilla and so forth. For as long as they live in the world of possibilities, and not the world of probabilities, you will never win. Not worth your time.

[Tsathoggua]

 

The world ends, Ex-C member held responsible, chaos ensues.

 

Ok nothing quite like that

 

So today I got a genuine opportunity to do some real hint dropping. Basically in the Sunday morning service the pastor (my father) was preaching about Noah's ark, and Ken Ham etc and I thought oh here we go then he dropped a kinda bomb. Now 'we' *cough* them, are fundy literal god judging burning hell folks right... bear this in mind for whats next.

 

So dad then says "and Ken ham proved it, you can't fit all those animals in the ark!" And I'm like... oookkk cool, yep, but um don't we believe they did? No, he continues, it was supernatural. God had them go into the ark into another dimension for the duration of the flood. *Faceplam*

 

So this gives me a great opening during my Sunday lunch with them. I have a question says I, if the animals in the ark was supernatural, then what other parts of the flood was supernatural, and what other parts of the bible are supernatural as opposed to literal? What of all the water? What did animals eat upon coming out of the dimension? How did the earth repopulate with enough humans to build the tower of Bable so fast. Ick that incest????

 

So basically the answer was God regenerated the earth, supernatural things happen, and we must have faith because we don't have, and will never have all the answers. There were good measures of incredulity, god of the gaps, and a few logical fallacies (cue name) thrown in for good measure. Incest? Well the 3 wives were not related so there was a mix in the bloodline, and in a few generations the lines would have been well mixed. Not sure how satisfactory that answer is from a genetic point of view.

 

So really it boils down to supernatural and faith. Those I think are the answers I will get on any other question I broach, but I have at least let them know I'm willing to do some serious questioning. I didn't get a good answer as to what parts of the bible are literal and what are supernatural. I also mentioned the 4 million liters per day of water required for 2 million Hebrews in the desert, but got there would have been water and oasis. I'm pretty sure they missed the 4 million liters per day part.

 

A very interesting observation: Science was brought up as both evil, and "see science proves that the animals can't have fitted therefore god-did-it". So on one hand science is all wrong and evil, and on the other proving god.

 

Anyways that's my update. Any thoughts on how to tackle the it's supernatural answer as its really hard to argue against that. It's kind of a joker card.

 

Why did God bother with an Ark if he was just going to supernatural everyone into another dimension? Why not just poof everything the way he wanted it to end up? The Ark-as-dimensional-portal idea is retarded. There's no reason to even build it. Why would God do stupid stuff if he is God?

 

And why doesn't any crazy stuff like this happen today? It's easy to say, " A long time ago X happened. " It can't be proven. Well, we see what reality is like today and I suspect it hasn't changed much, miracle-wise.

 

 

 

Very good point! Why didn't the bible just say, "And then Lord Jehovah zapped Noah and his family, plus all the animals necessary to repopulate the damm planet after its rather thorough dunking, away to another dimension."  So silly...

[MOHO]

Concider makes a good point.

I have to keep learning this lesson.

 

Those who want to pretend they believe will keep pretending that they believe. They do this because the preachers put the fear of god (litereally) into them so they keep writing checks and fortifying the baskets.

[searchinwithnoagenda]

Sorry, you can't win. There is always some way to reinvent history. In their apologetics there is always some way for sun = moon, chocolate = vanilla and so forth. For as long as they live in the world of possibilities, and not the world of probabilities, you will never win. Not worth your time.

"you will never win. Not worth your time"

E.X.A.C.T.L.Y.!!

[searchinwithnoagenda]

Concider makes a good point.

I have to keep learning this lesson.

 

Those who want to pretend they believe will keep pretending that they believe. They do this because the preachers put the fear of god (litereally) into them so they keep writing checks and fortifying the baskets.

"preachers put the fear of god (litereally) into them so they keep writing checks and fortifying the baskets."

 

Bingo, bango, bongo!!

Imo, it's ultimately A.L.L. about power and money.

[Lilith666]

Another dimension?? Oh my god. This is definitely a new one.

[LogicalFallacy]

Another dimension?? Oh my god. This is definitely a new one.

 

Yeah, and its basically an acknowledgement that Noah's ark as the bible reports it cannot have happened, but because we believe in God and therefore the flood must be real therefore god-did-it.

 

It's actually some weird logic... sorry not logic at all. It's.... um what is it? An attempt to believe against all odds?

 

 

A few points:

 

@Consider - good point. I guess all I can do is bring up discrepancies, and when the ultimate "but god-did-it" line comes out just gota say ok, if that's what you think.

@Tsathoggua - exactly. I didn't hit this one too hard, BUT the bible specifically states that he instructed Noah to build an ark x long x wide, with rooms etc... giving at least the appearance that it was the physical ark intended to carry the animals. So god has this in the bible, but relies on revelation to realise that actually the animals when to another dimension.... sounds deceptive or misleading much?

@ MOHO & searchinwithnoagenda - to be very honest I think my family actually believes. Like really believes. Remember my father is the pastor with the supernatural revelation. Now I agree at certain levels there is a financial aspect, but on the whole I believe he really believes what he believes.

 

 

On a totally different side note - you know how people claim Christianity is true because there is no way the martyrs would have died for something that they did not believe was absolutely real? I say to them ever heard of Muslim terrorists? They believe in things you think is false, they are willing to die for it. That someone is willing to die for what they believe in no way makes that belief true!

[searchinwithnoagenda]

"searchinwithnoagenda - to be very honest I think my family actually believes. Like really believes. Remember my father is the pastor with the supernatural revelation. Now I agree at certain levels there is a financial aspect, but on the whole I believe he really believes what he believes."

 

I understand. I oversimplify due to my simple mind. But, privately imo only, despite most believer's beliefs, if they stopped and were truly honest with themselves with deep introspection I believe they believe because of their need for control and / or power and / or money and / or community.

[MOHO]

" @ MOHO & searchinwithnoagenda - to be very honest I think my family actually believes. Like really believes. Remember my father is the pastor with the supernatural revelation. Now I agree at certain levels there is a financial aspect, but on the whole I believe he really believes what he believes. "

 

Sorry, Logical!

 

Did not mean to insult your fams.

[LogicalFallacy]

Oh no, no offense taken. There was no insult. Seriously there is stuff I know about church stuff, that I won't post, that could well make your statements at least appear accurate in the situation. That 'remember' line was only for qualification of my statement that I believe that my family (and father/pastor) really believes.

 

I of course probably have some vested interest in not wanting to believe that my father would actually just be after power or money. However (more qualifications coming) I don't believe he is just solely interested in it because I know him very well. While he does rely in some part on 'donations' he has his own business so not totally dependant. Also he is very much of the "only chosen few were saved" category so is not interested in evangelising and increasing his flock - in fact it has been steadily decreasing and this is taken as a sign that god is weeding out the weeds etc. (Shit... I'm gonna be a weed! )

 

So no worries guys, look if what I post makes you think that there is a real issue or whatever I need to face that. Its either my posting is unclear or I'm not facing facts, and I'd rather you guys point stuff out rather than have to tiptoe around me. I'm not a sjw snowflake - promise

 

It is an interesting and difficult situation with my father being the pastor because of various vested interests. Your perspectives from out side are the only ones I have ever received and are valued.

[readyforchange]

LogicalFallacy, does your father know about the global flood stories that pre-date the Noah flood account in Genesis, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Atra-Hasis epic, that are very similar to the Noah story? I'd be curious to know what he thinks of those.

 

The common apologetic response seems to be that because these global flood accounts are similar to the Noah story, that must mean that there really was a global flood since different groups wrote about one.

[LogicalFallacy]

I haven't hit them with that one yet

When I get to the stage of bringing up ancient mythologies it will be more of a sledge hammer type of discussion. It won't be me questioning just one part of the bible, it will be "look mythical flood stories..... written before the flood, look stories of wars among gods, look son's of gods being killed, buried and resurrected!"

Whoo!


Yeah, I have heard of that apologetic response. Responses: The Gilgamesh epic was written before the Noah version, the stories have borrowed from each other.

Another response is that there are dragon stories among most cultures of the world. So then that makes dragons true? (I didn't think so either)

I also haven't hit him with the total lack of archaeological evidence for a world wide flood. I did mention the 4.6odd billion cubic km of water.... but it came from beneath the earth and/or god-did-it.

Seriously it's an awesome fall back. Unassailable - god-did-it. Prove me wrong. Imagine if every time in your life you were wrong you had a god-did-it fall back - you'd never be wrong

 

I also haven't hit the no one knows who wrote the bible, it wasn't Moses for the first 5, and more recently we know that the gospels are anon, and weren't written until at least 60 CE and 3 of them appear to have the same source. I haven't hit contradictions within the perfect word of god. And I certainly haven't broached the god is one evil [insert appropriate phase]! Genocide, human sacrifice, anger, wrath, jealousy, love, mercy, judgement, lots of judgement, not changing... except when it suits. Sounds a bit like humans don't we all think?

[★ Citsonga ★]

The common apologetic response seems to be that because these global flood accounts are similar to the Noah story, that must mean that there really was a global flood since different groups wrote about one.

 

That's the way I heard it, too, but where did these other peoples come from that developed their own stories? If all the people who survived the flood were Noah's family, then they would've passed on that story instead of coming up with different stories.

[mwc]

 

The common apologetic response seems to be that because these global flood accounts are similar to the Noah story, that must mean that there really was a global flood since different groups wrote about one.

 

That's the way I heard it, too, but where did these other peoples come from that developed their own stories? If all the people who survived the flood were Noah's family, then they would've passed on that story instead of coming up with different stories.

 

     Satan corrupted the stories with his lies and that is why they diverge from the truth.

 

     You all need to understand that this all happened a very long time ago.  So long ago that the Egyptians were building the pyramids at Giza.  Think about that.  They're building a pyramid and, whooosh, a flood happens.  This sets them behind schedule by like a whole year.  They'd be pissed if they weren't all dead.  But the flood ends and Noah's descendants, two of them at least, run over there and finish the job like nothing happened at all.  They then populate the area.  Learn and continue the language.  Keep building up the area.  Worshiped ancient gods that somehow got created even though only one god had ever made itself known to all humanity ever.  Maybe forget that last one.

 

     In the time it takes for Moses to show up on the scene literally *hundreds* of years pass.  Hundreds.  Maybe even a thousand.  A whole thousand years.  There's no way these people can hope to keep a story about an all-powerful god that destroys the world in a fit of rage and the eight people who survive straight.  It's too complex.  Satan has all the room in the world to maneuver in there.  If they could have maybe written it down and kept it down to a maybe a few dozen lines it could have worked but the flood narrative is nearly two or three times that long.  And in Hebrew and now English.  The Egyptians don't speak that much less write it.  And the Babylonians?  Forget about it.  Satan is having a field day.  It's an impossible task.  God will have to recite this to Moses again.  This time in the right language.  And this time Satan won't be able to mess around with it since it's impossible to mess around with Hebrew once someone writes it down.  So here we are about 3500 years later and so we know things are just fine thanks to that.

 

          mwc

[MOHO]

LogicalFallacy wrote...

"Genocide, human sacrifice, anger, wrath, jealousy, love, mercy, judgement, lots of judgement, not changing... except when it suits. Sounds a bit like humans don't we all think? "

 

This is one of the most glaring observations that I, and others, have made regarding the doctrine. A so called perfect begin, or even one that has the capability to perform the incredible acts that god is fabled to have accomplished, would have no use for jealousy, rage, envy, anger, etc.  

[LogicalFallacy]

mwc

Satan corrupted the stories with his lies and that is why they diverge from the truth.

Heard this one before too. Yes we forget how powerful Satan is - powerful enough to put a spoke in God's wheel (So is god omnipotent?) and have stuff written down before god rights it down in order to deceive the world.

 

If God can't get simple stuff like ensuring that his accurate version is written down first, and ensuring that there's ACTUAL flood evidence then he doesn't deserve the title God. (Capital G)

 

Egyptian, Babylonian? You mean some of the languages that resulted from the confusion at the Tower of Bable? The confusion god caused? Yeah no wonder the true flood story got wreaked!