bornagainathiest Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/73533-biblegod-is-the-one-whose-actions-killed-countless-people-in-large-scale-catastophes-why-is-satan-the-bad-guy/#.V_GMC_krJD8 Please answer the question I put to you in post # of the above (and now locked) thread. Please identify what God's plainly seen objective truth is - using reason and not faith to do so. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted 13 August 2016 - 09:57 AM ironhorse, on 13 Aug 2016 - 02:28 AM, said: Satan is a liar. There's a simple enough way of finding out who's doing the lying, Ironhorse. Romans 1 : 18 - 20 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. So what is it that God has made plain and is clearly seen by everyone? Please note that whatever it is, it cannot be a matter of faih. It must be an objective truth that is understood by reason, not by faith. There are two reasons why. First, if it applies to everyone, then it's objective and not subjective - because it is true for all. Second, it's understood by reason because Paul uses the word, noomena, which has nothing to do with faith. As we can see here... http://biblehub.com/...romans/1-20.htm and here... http://biblehub.com/greek/3539.htm So please tell us what this objective truth is, Ironhorse. Please also remember that whatever it is, you MUST understand it by reason. Not by faith. Reason. Why? Because the apostle Paul, writing god-breathed scripture, says so. If you don't understand God's clearly seen objective truth by reason, then either you are lying or Paul is lying. Please tell us exactly what this plainly seen objective truth is. We await your swift reply with anticipation. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 So what is it that God has made plain and is clearly seen by everyone? The world and all you can see. Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush aflame with God. ~ Elizabeth Barret Browning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 So what is it that God has made plain and is clearly seen by everyone? The world and all you can see. Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush aflame with God. ~ Elizabeth Barret Browning Aaaaaand... ...IronHorse resorted to using a quote. *triumphant fanfare* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 3, 2016 Author Share Posted October 3, 2016 So what is it that God has made plain and is clearly seen by everyone? The world and all you can see. Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush aflame with God. ~ Elizabeth Barret Browning Ok, so everyone can see the world. Please explain (using reason and not faith) exactly how seeing the world enables everyone to understand God's invisible qualities of eternal power and divine nature. You've repeated pretty much what Paul wrote, Ironhorse. Now explain it. Explain (using reason and not faith) exactly how God's invisible qualities are seen in the world by everyone. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 If the Biblical God and his hand in creation is so apparent and clear, how come there are other religions? How come there are atheists? Isn't it more likely that Paul, one of the founders of the sect that eventually evolved into Christianity, was, y'know... biased? I'm sure a devout Muslim thinks the work of Allah (just a different version of your God btw) is just as apparent and obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 3, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 3, 2016 We can all see how mosquitoes transmit the Zika virus to pregnant women causing microcephaly in their babies (among other birth defects). What part of that doesn't scream "god's love"? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 3, 2016 Author Share Posted October 3, 2016 Ironhorse, Since you might be struggling to understand what I've asked, let me explain it to you. In the Romans passage, Paul talks about unbelievers and not about believers, like yourself. Christian believers understand God's nature thru their faith in him. But unbelievers cannot do that. They have no faith in God. However, so that they have no excuse, God has made His invisible qualities (eternal power and divine nature) VISIBLE to the eyes of all unbelievers, everywhere. According to Paul all unbelievers can use their powers of reason to understand God's invisible qualities. He has made this plain to them. This is an objective and undeniable fact of reality. According to Paul everyone can plainly see God's power and divinity in His creation - the world around us and the wider universe. So, even without the benefit of faith, everyone can plainly see what God has made clear to them. They don't need faith in Him to see this. It's there - all around them. Now, my question to you is this. If what Paul what writes is true, then please explain to us what this plainly-seen truth is. This truth that requires NO FAITH to apprehend and understand. This objective and undeniable fact. What is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 The world and all you can see. It does not take faith to see the reality of the world and universe.It does not take faith to see the reality of living things.It does not take faith to study and understand many aspects of the world and the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 The world and all you can see. It does not take faith to see the reality of the world and universe. It does not take faith to see the reality of living things. It does not take faith to study and understand many aspects of the world and the universe. It still takes faith to conclude that god is real. Fix'd. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 The world and all you can see. It does not take faith to see the reality of the world and universe. It does not take faith to see the reality of living things. It does not take faith to study and understand many aspects of the world and the universe. And this, of course, confirms what I have always suspected: the Holy Triad of Odin, Vili and Ve created the universe. Thanks dudes! Oh, I almost forgot: Your argument is void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 The world and all you can see. It does not take faith to see the reality of the world and universe. It does not take faith to see the reality of living things. It does not take faith to study and understand many aspects of the world and the universe. Reality is an assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 The world and all you can see. It does not take faith to see the reality of the world and universe. It does not take faith to see the reality of living things. It does not take faith to study and understand many aspects of the world and the universe. That is not an answer to the question Ironhorse, because you have made no link between these things and God's invisible qualities. You have provided no explanation of Romans 1 : 18 - 20. Here it is again. Romans 1 : 18 - 20 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. I am asking you to tell us exactly how God has made His eternal power and divine nature plain to everyone. How has he done this? How can everyone clearly see (without faith) His invisible qualities in the visible world? Please answer the question and stop repeating yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Ironhorse, Since you are still struggling to answer my 'How?' question, please read on and then consider my last question in this message. . . . You no doubt accept what the Bible says, when it describes faithless unbelievers having God's power clearly demonstrated to them? Like the magicians of Pharaoh's court turning their staves into snakes, but then seeing Aaron's staff turn into a snake and eating theirs up? Like the priests of Baal seeing Elijah's sacrificial bull, the wood, the stone, the soil and the water, all being consumed by God's heavenly fire? Like the Philistines of Ashdod seeing the statue of their god Dagon prostrate and broken, bowing down before the Ark of the Covenant? You no doubt accept what scripture says - that all these unbelievers did witness God's power clearly demonstrated to them? . . . So, even if you can't explain how unbelievers clearly see God's invisible qualities in the visible world, do you believe that they do see them? Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yunea Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 So, buttock cancer speaks of a creator? Harlequin ichthyosis? The countless miscarriages that happen in early pregnancy? Smallpox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 6, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2016 How can Romans 1 not also refer to christ? Is he not one of the things which "may be known about god"? Is it not because of creation's rejection of christ that "the wrath of god is being revealed in the heavens"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 6, 2016 Author Share Posted October 6, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 6, 2016 Author Share Posted October 6, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Btw, is the above highlighted sentence your answer to the question that I put to you yesterday? . . . So, even if you can't explain how unbelievers clearly see God's invisible qualities in the visible world, do you believe that they do see them? . . . That's a... 'Yes, they do see them' ...is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? Even I can answer this, and I'm not even a believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? Even I can answer this, and I'm not even a believer. --------- You can provide an example of God's invisible qualities in God's visible creation? I just want to clarify what answer you can provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? ~ BAA You will have to answer that one for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 7, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 7, 2016 That is a complete cop-out, Ironhorse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? Even I can answer this, and I'm not even a believer. --------- You can provide an example of God's invisible qualities in God's visible creation? I just want to clarify what answer you can provide. I can provide an answer, but I don't stand by its being correct! I'd rather not provide it here, just in case Ironhorse may actually decide to do some thinking instead of posting things like "you will have to answer that yourself", which he just said to BAA - a total cop-out, as the Prof noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 If I suggested a close study of the honey bee, could I cop back in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 8, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2016 If your "close study" is going to involve the idea that "evolution could not have produced three different types of honeybee in the same hive, therefore god", then I'd rather you didn't. But it's really up to BAA, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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