bornagainathiest Posted October 8, 2016 Author Share Posted October 8, 2016 It's ok Prof, Ironhorse can try it, if he wants. But before he does so, I'd better refresh his memory. Romans 1 : 18 - 20 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Those are the terms and conditions by which Ironhorse must make his reply. ALL people are without excuse before God. If He has left anyone out, then on Judgement Day they can legitimately stand up and say to Him that they had no knowledge of Him. Because He did not make his invisible qualities plainly known to them. So, whatever reply Ironhorse makes - it has to apply to ALL people. So it's down to honey bees, huh? God's invisible qualities of eternal power and divinity are plainly made known to ALL people thru... honey bees? For thousands of years the Inuit (Alaska, Canada and Greenland), the Sami of Lapland (Scandinavia) and the Nenets and Yakuts of Russia lived and died without ever seeing a honey bee or knowing of that animal's existence. As Shinzon has quite rightly pointed out to you - the devil is in the details. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 8, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2016 Come on, BAA! Surely you can see god's invisible qualities in Colony Collapse Disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 8, 2016 Author Share Posted October 8, 2016 Come on, BAA! Surely you can see god's invisible qualities in Colony Collapse Disorder. Even if I can Prof...what about the Inuit, Sami, etc.? ALL people means ALL people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 8, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2016 Including all of the people who will still be around long after honeybees are extinct. Out of curiosity, are we talking about European honeybees or their Russian counterparts? Ironhorse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 8, 2016 Author Share Posted October 8, 2016 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 8, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2016 So you caught my oblique and obscured reference! Good man! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 BAA: I don't want to be a smug asshole, but honey bees can be encountered in Lapland, I've seen them first hand Not that IH's argument is a valid one anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 8, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2016 Ironhorse hasn't actually made an argument yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 8, 2016 Author Share Posted October 8, 2016 BAA: I don't want to be a smug asshole, but honey bees can be encountered in Lapland, I've seen them first hand Not that IH's argument is a valid one anyhow. Are you watching, Ironhorse? I thank rjn for providing evidence that corrects part of my claim. Relying on faith isn't something I do and when it comes to examining the many claims of Christianity, SIMPLY believing them by SIMPLE faith is the way of the intellectually dishonest coward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 Only questionably relevant, but interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? (Bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Btw, is the above highlighted sentence your answer to the question that I put to you yesterday? . . . So, even if you can't explain how unbelievers clearly see God's invisible qualities in the visible world, do you believe that they do see them? . . . That's a... 'Yes, they do see them' ...is it? (Bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Btw, is the above highlighted sentence your answer to the question that I put to you yesterday? . . . So, even if you can't explain how unbelievers clearly see God's invisible qualities in the visible world, do you believe that they do see them? . . . That's a... 'Yes, they do see them' ...is it? (Bump!) Yes, all people do. Now whether we see this a sign there is a God is a choice we each make ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Btw, is the above highlighted sentence your answer to the question that I put to you yesterday? . . . So, even if you can't explain how unbelievers clearly see God's invisible qualities in the visible world, do you believe that they do see them? . . . That's a... 'Yes, they do see them' ...is it? (Bump!) Yes, all people do. Now whether we see this a sign there is a God is a choice we each make ourselves. Ok, so what exactly is... 'this'.., Ironhorse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? (Bump!) (Re-bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 IH was indoctrinated as a young child to adhere to scripture, authority and revelation from one particular sect of one particular religion. His behavior and posts demonstrate the indoctrination remains well ingrained. His brain was wired that way when he was a young child through young adulthood. Decades of subsequent peer pressure formed his current emotions and world view and explain his willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, lack of curiosity and cowardice. He also uses his theism to medicate grief from personal tragedies. He simply is not capable of rational or unbiased thought, at least on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Btw, is the above highlighted sentence your answer to the question that I put to you yesterday? . . . So, even if you can't explain how unbelievers clearly see God's invisible qualities in the visible world, do you believe that they do see them? . . . That's a... 'Yes, they do see them' ...is it? (Bump!) Yes, all people do. Now whether we see this a sign there is a God is a choice we each make ourselves. Ok, so what exactly is... 'this'.., Ironhorse? What exactly is the... 'this' ...that you're certain all people see, Ironhorse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? (Bump!) (Re-bump!) (Re-re-bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Btw, is the above highlighted sentence your answer to the question that I put to you yesterday? . . . So, even if you can't explain how unbelievers clearly see God's invisible qualities in the visible world, do you believe that they do see them? . . . That's a... 'Yes, they do see them' ...is it? (Bump!) Yes, all people do. Now whether we see this a sign there is a God is a choice we each make ourselves. Ok, so what exactly is... 'this'.., Ironhorse? What exactly is the... 'this' ...that you're certain all people see, Ironhorse? Ironhorse, Please tell us what the...'this' ...is, that you believe everyone see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? (Bump!) (Re-bump!) (Re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Btw, is the above highlighted sentence your answer to the question that I put to you yesterday? . . . So, even if you can't explain how unbelievers clearly see God's invisible qualities in the visible world, do you believe that they do see them? . . . That's a... 'Yes, they do see them' ...is it? (Bump!) Yes, all people do. Now whether we see this a sign there is a God is a choice we each make ourselves. Ok, so what exactly is... 'this'.., Ironhorse? What exactly is the... 'this' ...that you're certain all people see, Ironhorse? Ironhorse, Please tell us what the...'this' ...is, that you believe everyone see? We're still waiting on your simple answer to the most obvious thing God has made plain to everyone, Ironhorse. What is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? (Bump!) (Re-bump!) (Re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-bump!) Re-re-re-re-bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? (Bump!) (Re-bump!) (Re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-bump!) Re-re-re-re-bump!) What is “this”? “This” is another example of where I see signs of a creator. Two things I see are design and beauty. What in “this” do you see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? (Bump!) (Re-bump!) (Re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-bump!) Re-re-re-re-bump!) What is “this”? “This” is another example of where I see signs of a creator. Two things I see are design and beauty. What in “this” do you see? Birds? The old hippie me would absolutely be down with seeing some sort of "divine" cause for everything, but it wouldn't be the direct handiwork of some specific, Levantine Iron Age Diety. Rather, I'd be speaking of some sort of fundamental "divine" principle that acted in nature. I can still embrace such a view on a more symbolic, philosophical level btw. Is there any actual proof for any of those two beliefs? No, there isn't, but I must say though, that yours requires A LOT more faith than mine, as you make a lot of assumptions about what this Creative Force is. My version says "something", yours on the other hand, is very specific, and says "YHWH/Jesus", and all the characteristics and attributes that entails. It's also interesting that you bring up typical examples of what is considered "natural beauty" by most people, and go "Look! These are like the fingerprints of God! Behold his glorious work!". Why not look at the "natural beauty" in a parasitic worm burrowing through the intestines of a starving child? The "natural beauty" of the Malaria virus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 14, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 14, 2016 First we were going to talk about honeybees; now we're talking about birds. Bees and birds... birds and bees... the birds and the bees! I get it now! Sex is god! Grab your salvation by the pu$$y! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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