bornagainathiest Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 What is “this”? “This” is another example of where I see signs of a creator. Two things I see are design and beauty. What in “this” do you see? You haven't answered the question, Ironhorse. You weren't asked what you see. You were asked what everyone sees. That is the 'this' in question. So now please answer the question that was asked and not a different question. And please don't make us wait as long. And please don't make us have to prompt you so many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Furthermore Ironhorse, You violated the conditions that the apostle Paul set down in scripture about this matter. The examples you gave, you see by faith... because you believe. But Paul clearly states God's eternal power and divine nature has been made plain to everyone. Everyone means believers and unbelievers. Here is the passage again. (For the 4th time!) Romans 1 : 18 - 20 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. . . . You therefore cannot use faith in any part of your answer... because unbelievers do not see God's qualities by faith. So let's have your simple answer to this most obvious, objective truth that God has put right before us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 IH has been asked many times in the past for evidence of his particular God. He occasionally provided his answer to this question. That answer has always been (paraphrased), 'The universe and life are evidence of my God'. That's it. Nothing more. So, it's not surprising at all that he gives answers such as, 'Look at the bees, or the birds'. BAA: IH doesn't understand the "Please answer my question without utilizing your religious faith' component of your inquiry. I believe he is incapable of understanding it, or he understands it quite well but willfully avoids it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 IH has been asked many times in the past for evidence of his particular God. He occasionally provided his answer to this question. That answer has always been (paraphrased), 'The universe and life are evidence of my God'. That's it. Nothing more. So, it's not surprising at all that he gives answers such as, 'Look at the bees, or the birds'. BAA: IH doesn't understand the "Please answer my question without utilizing your religious faith' component of your inquiry. I believe he is incapable of understanding it, or he understands it quite well but willfully avoids it. Yes, I realize that sdelsolray. But either outcome is acceptable. If he's incapable of understanding a simple question, then the members and lurkers will take note accordingly. If he does understand the question but carefully avoids it out fear of having his faith threatened, then they will also take note of that. Win/win for the members and the lurkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? (Bump!) (Re-bump!) (Re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-re-re-bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 Furthermore Ironhorse, You violated the conditions that the apostle Paul set down in scripture about this matter. The examples you gave, you see by faith... because you believe. But Paul clearly states God's eternal power and divine nature has been made plain to everyone. Everyone means believers and unbelievers. Here is the passage again. (For the 4th time!) Romans 1 : 18 - 20 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. . . . You therefore cannot use faith in any part of your answer... because unbelievers do not see God's qualities by faith. So let's have your simple answer to this most obvious, objective truth that God has put right before us! (Bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted October 16, 2016 Moderator Share Posted October 16, 2016 First we were going to talk about honeybees; now we're talking about birds. Bees and birds... birds and bees... the birds and the bees! I get it now! Sex is god! Grab your salvation by the pu$$y! ROTFLMAO! Split my sides on this one! Here I was thinking of a serious answer as to what I saw with IH birds, then I read TRP's post and lost it. IH I'm not sure what you expect people to 'see'. I see birds, beautiful, yes, some birds fly amazingly synchronized yes. But that is not an argument for God. Look birds, look sunset, look beauty, therefore GOD. No. It's the same as saying look geese flying in v formation long before humans flew in v formation therefore great intelligence. No that's not the case. While beautiful, it can all be explained by nature and evolution. (BTW is IH a creationist or a God-started-big-bang-but-let-evolution-do-the-rest Christian? So many types, you have to know what doctrine a Christian believes in order to make points correctly.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 16, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 16, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted October 16, 2016 Moderator Share Posted October 16, 2016 Right now we should have a topic on the morality of thieving seagulls. One thing that annoys me (Sorry off subject here) but some Christians seem to insist that if one believes in evolution then one shouldn't have morality because its just nature therefore everything is permitted. It does not take to much critical thinking to realize that we have higher brain power than animals and that's why we have develop morals. And still they ask "so as an atheist whats wrong with eating babies?" *Face slap* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 (BTW is IH a creationist or a God-started-big-bang-but-let-evolution-do-the-rest Christian? So many types, you have to know what doctrine a Christian believes in order to make points correctly.) He sometimes makes reference to stuff like the Big Bang and Evolution, but he also claims to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, which to me indicates literalism, so... not sure. I have no idea how one can square a literalist approach with science, but hey, they are nothing if not persistent in their cognitive dissonance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 17, 2016 Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? (Bump!) (Re-bump!) (Re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-re-re-re-bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 17, 2016 Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 Furthermore Ironhorse, You violated the conditions that the apostle Paul set down in scripture about this matter. The examples you gave, you see by faith... because you believe. But Paul clearly states God's eternal power and divine nature has been made plain to everyone. Everyone means believers and unbelievers. Here is the passage again. (For the 4th time!) Romans 1 : 18 - 20 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. . . . You therefore cannot use faith in any part of your answer... because unbelievers do not see God's qualities by faith. So let's have your simple answer to this most obvious, objective truth that God has put right before us! (Bump!) (Re-bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 IH was indoctrinated as a young child to adhere to scripture, authority and revelation from one particular sect of one particular religion. His behavior and posts demonstrate the indoctrination remains well ingrained. His brain was wired that way when he was a young child through young adulthood. Decades of subsequent peer pressure formed his current emotions and world view and explain his willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, lack of curiosity and cowardice. He also uses his theism to medicate grief from personal tragedies. He simply is not capable of rational or unbiased thought, at least on this subject. I'm not one to engage in religious argument really, so am only now sampling some of these posts and seeing some of what IH is about. I've gathered he was raised baptist? Fundamentalist? And the annihilationist perspective, is that tied in with a literal rapture interpretation? No matter. I might figure it out. I came from a baptist background, more or less. All the fundies in my family now are fundie baptist. Some of IH's responses remind me of how I perceived christianity and faith back then, and how I tried to communicate it with unbelievers. I remember trying to embrace a certain enigmatic flair, speaking in mysteries, analogies, never telling it straight forward. It seems like this is what he's doing with all the quotes and lyrics and indirect answers. You can't argue with artful poetry, right? It's purpose is to inspire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 IH was indoctrinated as a young child to adhere to scripture, authority and revelation from one particular sect of one particular religion. His behavior and posts demonstrate the indoctrination remains well ingrained. His brain was wired that way when he was a young child through young adulthood. Decades of subsequent peer pressure formed his current emotions and world view and explain his willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, lack of curiosity and cowardice. He also uses his theism to medicate grief from personal tragedies. He simply is not capable of rational or unbiased thought, at least on this subject. I'm not one to engage in religious argument really, so am only now sampling some of these posts and seeing some of what IH is about. I've gathered he was raised baptist? Fundamentalist? And the annihilationist perspective, is that tied in with a literal rapture interpretation? No matter. I might figure it out. I came from a baptist background, more or less. All the fundies in my family now are fundie baptist. Some of IH's responses remind me of how I perceived christianity and faith back then, and how I tried to communicate it with unbelievers. I remember trying to embrace a certain enigmatic flair, speaking in mysteries, analogies, never telling it straight forward. It seems like this is what he's doing with all the quotes and lyrics and indirect answers. You can't argue with artful poetry, right? It's purpose is to inspire. A question please, Voice. When you were a Christian and 'never telling it straight forward' to unbelievers, did it occur to you that you were actually being dishonest with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 IH was indoctrinated as a young child to adhere to scripture, authority and revelation from one particular sect of one particular religion. His behavior and posts demonstrate the indoctrination remains well ingrained. His brain was wired that way when he was a young child through young adulthood. Decades of subsequent peer pressure formed his current emotions and world view and explain his willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, lack of curiosity and cowardice. He also uses his theism to medicate grief from personal tragedies. He simply is not capable of rational or unbiased thought, at least on this subject. I'm not one to engage in religious argument really, so am only now sampling some of these posts and seeing some of what IH is about. I've gathered he was raised baptist? Fundamentalist? And the annihilationist perspective, is that tied in with a literal rapture interpretation? No matter. I might figure it out. I came from a baptist background, more or less. All the fundies in my family now are fundie baptist. Some of IH's responses remind me of how I perceived christianity and faith back then, and how I tried to communicate it with unbelievers. I remember trying to embrace a certain enigmatic flair, speaking in mysteries, analogies, never telling it straight forward. It seems like this is what he's doing with all the quotes and lyrics and indirect answers. You can't argue with artful poetry, right? It's purpose is to inspire. A question please, Voice. When you were a Christian and 'never telling it straight forward' to unbelievers, did it occur to you that you were actually being dishonest with them? Kind of, yes. I justified it by the NT scripture about luring converts, being like a serpent in the grass, being deceptive. I don't remember what passage that was, but am pretty sure it was one of Paul's letters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 IH was indoctrinated as a young child to adhere to scripture, authority and revelation from one particular sect of one particular religion. His behavior and posts demonstrate the indoctrination remains well ingrained. His brain was wired that way when he was a young child through young adulthood. Decades of subsequent peer pressure formed his current emotions and world view and explain his willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, lack of curiosity and cowardice. He also uses his theism to medicate grief from personal tragedies. He simply is not capable of rational or unbiased thought, at least on this subject. I'm not one to engage in religious argument really, so am only now sampling some of these posts and seeing some of what IH is about. I've gathered he was raised baptist? Fundamentalist? And the annihilationist perspective, is that tied in with a literal rapture interpretation? No matter. I might figure it out. I came from a baptist background, more or less. All the fundies in my family now are fundie baptist. Some of IH's responses remind me of how I perceived christianity and faith back then, and how I tried to communicate it with unbelievers. I remember trying to embrace a certain enigmatic flair, speaking in mysteries, analogies, never telling it straight forward. It seems like this is what he's doing with all the quotes and lyrics and indirect answers. You can't argue with artful poetry, right? It's purpose is to inspire. A question please, Voice. When you were a Christian and 'never telling it straight forward' to unbelievers, did it occur to you that you were actually being dishonest with them? Kind of, yes. I justified it by the NT scripture about luring converts, being like a serpent in the grass, being deceptive. I don't remember what passage that was, but am pretty sure it was one of Paul's letters. Was it this, Voice? Matthew 10 : 16 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 that sounds right but I was thinking there was another one too. Paul was trying to tell someone, Timothy or someone how to convert people. I could be wrong, but it seems like this. I never did have a memory for scriptures, sorry. For me memories of scriptures are more like shapes and colors, feelings and such. Bookmarks where I might one day go back again to look for a thing. I see math the same way. Shapes and patterns. Ironhorse? You should know where it is, right? What's the passage I'm referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 Romans 1:18 is not referring to miraculous acts recorded in the scriptures but to the general revelation of God through his creations. This is revealed to all people. It is not a complete revelation that includes Christ, but it is sufficient enough to speak of a Creator. Yes, I know that, Ironhorse. But we're still waiting for you to tell us exactly... HOW ...God's creation is sufficient enough to speak to those who have no faith in him. Those are the terms and conditions set down by Paul. No faith in Paul's God is required to see His invisible qualities in His visible creation. So how do we (the faithless) see them, Ironhorse? How...? (Bump!) (Re-bump!) (Re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-re-re-bump!) (Re-re-re-re-re-re-bump!) A quick count up reveals that I've put this question to you over a dozen times, Ironhorse. Please tell us how we (the faithless) see God's invisible qualities in the visible universe. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 What is “this”? “This” is another example of where I see signs of a creator. Two things I see are design and beauty. What in “this” do you see? You haven't answered the question, Ironhorse. You weren't asked what you see. You were asked what everyone sees. That is the 'this' in question. So now please answer the question that was asked and not a different question. And please don't make us wait as long. And please don't make us have to prompt you so many times. I've asked you this question six (6) times now, Ironhorse. So, for the seventh time... Please answer this simple and obvious question. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.B. Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 He's never going to answer you, because "Paul's" statement is nothing but woo-woo spiritual bullshit. It's no different than this nutbag woman from Ohio who wanted to run for mayor of somewhere - nutty as a Snickers, mind you - and when a radio DJ called her out as unqualified, she started yelling in "tongues" at him because she was battling "the Devil". Yeah, her "prayers" had lots of powerful effect... made her look even more powerfully like a fucking moron. The words can say whatever they want about us unbelievers being able to "clearly see" and be "without excuse". Those are the words of a TrueBeliever type writing to other TrueBeliever types to assuage their butthurt over the lack of conversions. It's nothing but sour grapes. "Paul" can say whatever about WHY we don't believe - the fact is that it was written precisely because there were people who DIDN'T believe. if their magical bullshit was real, there would be no unbelievers, because nobody could argue with a genuinely-demonstrable display of power and/or ability, be it spiritual or otherwise. No, every few chapters or so in the New Testament, there are all kinds of disclaimers about why so many people reject what is written there - either we're hard-hearted, or we are willfully resisting what we know to be true, or there's a veil over our hearts (if we're Jewish), or we are being deceived by devils. There's always an excuse - when you talk shit and can't back it up, you run with your tail between your legs and shout blame from a safe distance. Fuck that bullshit. It was powerless then and IronAss is powerless to answer you with anything remotely resembling proof now. There is nothing, NOTHING that is clearly, plainly able to be seen by ANYONE or EVERYONE that is without question proof of ANY god, let alone New-Testicle's biblegod. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 Thanks for the input, L.B. I'll admit that I think it's highly unlikely that Ironhorse will be able to provide an answer. Yet, for the sake of the lurkers and my fellow members, I must persist in asking him. Because continuing to do so continues to expose him to the glare of the spotlight. And if people see that he can't answer one simple question, then they're not likely to listen to him or trust him.. After all, if he can't identify what God has made plain to everyone (surely something blindingly obvious and unmissable!) then what's the point of paying attention to anything he writes? He clearly doesn't know or understand the simplest things about God or Christianity. Which is ironic, seeing as Ironhorse claims that God's message is... simple. But when asked the simplest of questions he can't answer. Thanks, BAA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Since ironhorse won't answer, let's let bono step in for him. This one is for ironhorses sake. I wouldn't want him to be deceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 29, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 29, 2016 Feckin' Irish and their bleedin' jesus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Since ironhorse won't answer, let's let bono step in for him. Not an answer at all. It's just religious dogma. Again, not an answer. It's just an personal opinion of a theist. Still, not an answer. It's just a criticism of Bono's religious proselytizing from an unknown source/author. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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