Visiting Jerusalem And Impact On Beliefs

[readyforchange]

For anyone who has lived in or visited Jerusalem, did being there have an impact on your beliefs as an ex-Christian, or while you were still a Christian?  Did physically seeing various landmarks like the Western Wall, the Via Dolorosa, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, etc., make Jesus and the gospels seem more "real" to you?  Or how about any of your family and friends who have visited or lived in Jerusalem?  Just curious, as I have never been to Jerusalem and do not think I know anyone who has.

[Shinzon]

Never been there but wouldnt want to. I would hate giving on dollar to israel because of the gaza blockade. And that would be on my mind way too much to enjoy the history.

[Vigile]

Never been there, but travel most certainly impacted my beliefs. When I moved to Washington DC to do an internship, I was surprised to learn that xianity there mostly consisted of old Episcopal churches, not the born again, evangelical churches I was surrounded with growing up. Then I started to travel abroad and found that American xianity is just that. It doesn't exist outside the states (at least in most places). That was absolutely food for thought. 

[nptphotos]

 

I was there in 1978.  My Mother and Father signed up with a church group (I did not) for a visit and at the last minute my Dad could not go due to his work, so I went in his place.

 

No it had no impact on me other than to say that coming from the U.S. with only 200+ years of history, seeing history of 2000+ years of antiquity was impressive.  As to Mom, it meant a lot to her faith.  Even though I was a Christian at the time, I just saw most of the usual sights as tourist traps and I may have even started down my long path of doubt.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I was in Jerusalem for a week in August 2001. I was no longer a believer by then, but the Church of the Holy Sepulchre blew me away. There isn't much first-century stuff because the city was destroyed by the Romans after the various Jewish revolts, so the Old City now is over what was Hadrian's Aelia Capitolina. On that trip I got as far as Masada in the south and the border of Lebanon, with caves and the Crusader fortress at Acre.

 

The thing that hit me most was the position of the Jewish Israelis vs the other groups like Arabs and Armenians. The Bible Lands Museum is an overt propaganda institution trying to get across the message that God gave Palestine to the Jews. I could go on with this topic, but it made me a lot less pro-Israeli than I had been.

 

If I had been still a Christian I probably would have felt my faith strengthened, but that result would have come from the emotions of associations with storied places, not from facts.

[mwc]

but the Church of the Holy Sepulchre blew me away. There isn't much first-century stuff because the city was destroyed by the Romans after the various Jewish revolts

     I thought the Muslims destroyed the church in the Crusades but I did a quick check and it looks like a guy named Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered it destroyed in 1009.  It was mostly rebuilt after that by the Byzantines so it's about a thousand years old (some bits and pieces date back further to Roman times but look like they've been covered by other work until fairly recently).  The Crusaders came along shortly after (just before 1100 but the church had already been rebuilt by then...so much for my faulty memory).  The church has had a few facelifts and upgrades (major and minor) since then as well.

 

          mwc

[♦ ficino ♦]

People who will be in NYC may want to check out the exhibit of art and artifacts from Jerusalem betw 1000 and 1400. Lots of fascinating stuff, including a letter signed in Maimonides' own hand. (It's a letter where he's appealing for funds to ransom Jewish prisoners from the Crusaders. I get the impression the Crusaders were running a kidnapping/extortion racket.) The exhibit is at the Metropolitan Mus. of Art:

 

http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2016/jerusalem

[readyforchange]

Hi. Appreciate everyone's insights. There is a chance I may have an opportunity to travel to Jerusalem next year with some family, and I'm still contemplating whether or not to go through with it - safety probably being the chief concern. Jerusalem is a bucket-list destination for me, so if I do not go there next year, maybe sometime in the near future.

@Shinzon: Thanks, I can understand your conviction there.

@Vigile: I agree that traveling and exposure to Christianity outside the U.S. (and especially outside the Bible belt / similar areas) definitely gives a broader perspective. How would you define Christianity where you are in Russia?

@nptphotos: Thanks for sharing. My main travel experiences outside the U.S. have been to Europe, and I remember thinking the same thing about landmarks like the Coloseum when I visited Rome.

@ficino: Thanks for the background on the Old City. Would really like to see the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. That's interesting about the Jewish Isralies and the Bible Lands Museum. No direct interactions with Jewish Israelis, but that is consistent with some news reports I've read/seen. Will have to find out if that museum is on the trip itinerary. When I traveled to Rome, I visited the Vatican, and as someone who only transitioned to agnostic over the last few years, I could tell it did not have the same impact on me as it would have prior to that. I did enjoy the Vatican museum, and the Sistine Chapel was beautiful to see. Thanks for the tip on the artifacts exhibit at the Met.

[Vigile]

"where you are in Russia?"

 

St. Petersburg.

[Tiacapan]

I went to israel with a group when i was 17.  I grew up born again christian and still believed it all at that point.  It was something that lots of christians and christian family members i knew had done and they raved about it so i was expecting a huge, deep spiritual experience but it was not like that for me at all.  Like someone else said it just felt very touristy, i didn't have any big spiritual awakenings or feelings and i just got really pissed off with the men who lived there (not sure what nationality/group they were) who were very slimy and gropey cos me and the 2 friends i was with in the group were young and foreign.  I ended up hitting one of them as he was slithering his shaky hand up and down my friends back and she was such a shy person she wouldnt do anything…it caused the group of men he was with on camels to turn very nasty, saying horrible things whilst i was cross eyed with rage and we were quickly rescued by some of the older ladies in the group…so basically that is my defining memory of israel :0)  Never again!!! Grrrrrr…. :0)) That was 23 years ago though so maybe times have changed :0))

[ax345]

I have not been to Jerusalem, but I was in Damascus several years ago (just before the war started), which has some noteworthy sites where Paul was converted and started preaching.  Also, the head of John the Baptists is there, but it's now in a mosque.  Anyway, being at those sites had no effect on my disappearing faith, and I'm pretty sure that Jerusalem would have the same non-effect.

[Hermione]

After I had finished school, I went to Israel for ten months to work on a social project. I spent some time in Jerusalem. The city had sort of an addictive quality for me - I returned there as often as my free time would allow. Back then, I was a Christian, but in a confused state of mind. I was struggling with the question of what to do with my life (if becoming a missionary really was the right path for me; if I believed in God enough for that kind of life). I am a very curious person so I loved visiting all the sites - I am especially interested in archeology and Jerusalem is a perfect place for that kind of interest. Being there certainly made the Bible feel more real. It was amazing and at the same time, I often found it frustrating when considering all the arguments taking place in this city (even between the Christian denominations). Also, for a while, I was confused as to whether the Jews might be right after all because I experienced Jewish live for the first time and it sort of made sense in the context of this city. 

[readyforchange]

I went to israel with a group when i was 17.  I grew up born again christian and still believed it all at that point.  It was something that lots of christians and christian family members i knew had done and they raved about it so i was expecting a huge, deep spiritual experience but it was not like that for me at all.  Like someone else said it just felt very touristy, i didn't have any big spiritual awakenings or feelings and i just got really pissed off with the men who lived there (not sure what nationality/group they were) who were very slimy and gropey cos me and the 2 friends i was with in the group were young and foreign.  I ended up hitting one of them as he was slithering his shaky hand up and down my friends back and she was such a shy person she wouldnt do anything…it caused the group of men he was with on camels to turn very nasty, saying horrible things whilst i was cross eyed with rage and we were quickly rescued by some of the older ladies in the group…so basically that is my defining memory of israel :0)  Never again!!! Grrrrrr…. :0)) That was 23 years ago though so maybe times have changed :0))

Hi Tiacapan. Thanks for sharing. Sorry about what happened to you and your friends. I guess those men thought they could do what they wanted and get away with it. Yeah, maybe if you take another trip there, the experience might be different, or at least provide some better memories.

[readyforchange]

I have not been to Jerusalem, but I was in Damascus several years ago (just before the war started), which has some noteworthy sites where Paul was converted and started preaching.  Also, the head of John the Baptists is there, but it's now in a mosque.  Anyway, being at those sites had no effect on my disappearing faith, and I'm pretty sure that Jerusalem would have the same non-effect.

Thanks, I'll need to look into those sites in Damascus more. Had no idea there was a site that claims to actually have the head of John the Baptist, or that there are confirmed locations where Paul once was (or may have been).

[readyforchange]

After I had finished school, I went to Israel for ten months to work on a social project. I spent some time in Jerusalem. The city had sort of an addictive quality for me - I returned there as often as my free time would allow. Back then, I was a Christian, but in a confused state of mind. I was struggling with the question of what to do with my life (if becoming a missionary really was the right path for me; if I believed in God enough for that kind of life). I am a very curious person so I loved visiting all the sites - I am especially interested in archeology and Jerusalem is a perfect place for that kind of interest. Being there certainly made the Bible feel more real. It was amazing and at the same time, I often found it frustrating when considering all the arguments taking place in this city (even between the Christian denominations). Also, for a while, I was confused as to whether the Jews might be right after all because I experienced Jewish live for the first time and it sort of made sense in the context of this city.

You really got to experience life in Israel. I can imagine it is an interesting melting pot of Jews, Christians, and Muslims living and interacting in close proximity. Archaeology is one of my interests too.

[ax345]

 

I have not been to Jerusalem, but I was in Damascus several years ago (just before the war started), which has some noteworthy sites where Paul was converted and started preaching.  Also, the head of John the Baptists is there, but it's now in a mosque.  Anyway, being at those sites had no effect on my disappearing faith, and I'm pretty sure that Jerusalem would have the same non-effect.

Thanks, I'll need to look into those sites in Damascus more. Had no idea there was a site that claims to actually have the head of John the Baptist, or that there are confirmed locations where Paul once was (or may have been).

 

Well, maybe his head is in Damascus...if the Muslims are right about it.

 

From Wikipedia:

Over the centuries, there have been many discrepancies in the various legends and claimed relics throughout the Christian world. Several different locations claim to possess the severed head of John the Baptist. Among the various claimants are:^[8]

• Roman Catholic tradition holds that the head on display in San Silvestro in Capite in Rome is that of John the Baptist, discovered for the second time, as also maintained by Pope Benedict XVI in August 2012.^[9]
• Islamic tradition maintains that the head of Saint John the Baptist was interred in the once-called Basilica of Saint John the Baptist in Damascus. Pope John Paul II visited the tomb of John the Baptist at the Umayyad Mosque during his visit to Syria in April, 2001. Consequently, Muslims also believe that Jesus Christ will return to this location in the Second Coming.
• ...

[Margee]

 Being there certainly made the Bible feel more real.. 

 

 

My best friend who was my first cousin, had a partner who grew up in a very rich, Jewish community in New York. He was an atheist even though he grew up in the Jewish community. Jim (my cousin's partner) and I had a very private conversation once. I remember so strongly after he visited Jerusalem, that he told me it almost made a believer out of him. He was blown away with what he thought was evidence. (I was so pleased to hear that back then) He died years ago (when I was still a born again christian) and I sure wish I could talk to him now. If I can remember, I think he actually accepted Jesus as being the savior of the world but never made a big deal out of it. My cousin would have had a fit because he was a 100% atheist and certainly thought I was very stupid to believe such nonsense so I'm quite sure Jim wouldn't have told him. Wish they were both alive today. They would be so shocked to learn that I have changed my mind and become an atheist. 

[Guest Furball]

Never been there but when I used to watch video's of the land's where jesus supposedly walked, it made my faith much more real at that time. 

[readyforchange]

Well, maybe his head is in Damascus...if the Muslims are right about it.

 

From Wikipedia:

Over the centuries, there have been many discrepancies in the various legends and claimed relics throughout the Christian world. Several different locations claim to possess the severed head of John the Baptist. Among the various claimants are:^%5B8%5D

• Roman Catholic tradition holds that the head on display in San Silvestro in Capite in Rome is that of John the Baptist, discovered for the second time, as also maintained by Pope Benedict XVI in August 2012.^%5B9%5D
• Islamic tradition maintains that the head of Saint John the Baptist was interred in the once-called Basilica of Saint John the Baptist in Damascus. Pope John Paul II visited the tomb of John the Baptist at the Umayyad Mosque during his visit to Syria in April, 2001. Consequently, Muslims also believe that Jesus Christ will return to this location in the Second Coming.
• ...

Thanks ax345, I'll plan to read these Wiki pages.

[readyforchange]

My best friend who was my first cousin, had a partner who grew up in a very rich, Jewish community in New York. He was an atheist even though he grew up in the Jewish community. Jim (my cousin's partner) and I had a very private conversation once. I remember so strongly after he visited Jerusalem, that he told me it almost made a believer out of him. He was blown away with what he thought was evidence. (I was so pleased to hear that back then) He died years ago (when I was still a born again christian) and I sure wish I could talk to him now. If I can remember, I think he actually accepted Jesus as being the savior of the world but never made a big deal out of it. My cousin would have had a fit because he was a 100% atheist and certainly thought I was very stupid to believe such nonsense so I'm quite sure Jim wouldn't have told him. Wish they were both alive today. They would be so shocked to learn that I have changed my mind and become an atheist.

Thanks for sharing Margee. Seems like Jerusalem had a profound effect on your cousin's partner. I also have a family member who passed away several years ago, and I do wish we could have at least one more conversation. She would be amazed at how my perspective on Christianity has evolved.