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Goodbye Jesus

The Simplicity Of The Christian Message


ironhorse

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But the gospels don't stand in isolation, do they Ironhorse?

 

 

 

According to common doctrines no book stands in isolation.... which is why its fairly easy to start pointing out cascading errors.

 

On one hand the apologist defends scripture saying that the proper translation must be used (And one must of course be well educated to understand ancient Hebrew) So they say x translation needs correcting. (Say Isaiah where it says God sends evil - it actually translates to calamity etc...) Fine, then we will use proper translation for Isaiah in reference to the word virgin. The proper translation is "young woman"

 

So Christians take your translation pick, God is not evil, and Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, or God is evil, and Jesus was born of a virgin.

 

Me.... eh... evil god or man born of virgin who is god on which entire creation hinges?... eh I'll let you choose... too complex for me.

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Save us from what, IH? 

We all know the answer to that. Sin and damnation to hell.

 

So what do we have to do?

Bow to Jesus. 

 

What does bowing to Jesus mean? "Believing"

 

What does "believing" mean? Following.

 

What does following mean? Obeying.

Obeying what? Commands to not sin, love god, and make disciples. 

What sin? 

Anything God says is sin. 

 

What is a sin? 

(Put here a list too long for this reply - 80% of which is not unethical, including thought crimes)

And that's not touching on loving god or making disciples. 

In short - IH, the simplicity you claim just isn't there. And you can't fool a forum full of ex-christians, especially ones such as myself, who of which were hardcore baptists like yourself. 

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I prefer the simplicity of atheism and science. I don't need to have all the answers. I respect life knowing we only get one shot. I don't need to feel guilty for enjoying the simple pleasures of life - an active, open sex life with my wife and others, some beer from time to time, not wasting time or money on religion, and allowing myself to be a bit selfish without worrying about what "god" or his followers think. 

 

That is simple.

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I prefer the simplicity of atheism and science. I don't need to have all the answers. I respect life knowing we only get one shot. I don't need to feel guilty for enjoying the simple pleasures of life - an active, open sex life with my wife and others, some beer from time to time, not wasting time or money on religion, and allowing myself to be a bit selfish without worrying about what "god" or his followers think. 

 

That is simple.

 

Simplicity of ... science? Please elaborate.

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^^^No. Please don't. Those who find science "simple" generally don't understand it.

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Do not stumble over the simplicity of the Gospel message of salvation!

 

 

Do not stumble over the fact that I and others have asked questions and posed quandaries for you that you have ignored.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that you're proselytizing and starting to piss me off.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that the mods could drop the ban-hammer on you for shit like that.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that despite my crass language and give-not-a-fuck attitude, you're forgetting that I was a pastor and evangelist, paid to parrot the bullshit you're trying to gloss over.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that the day you agree to meet me in a serious debate on here, I will rip your fairy-tale "simple" bullshit to shreds using ONLY competing Christian theologies and ideologies.

 

Whenever you're ready, lemming.

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I'll take a stab at that.

Scientist find new things that are better answers, those findings get peer reviewed, new finding open to change when process repeated, I don't do shit but Google as needed... Simple

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2+2=4 is simple. Most western children know this.(Can't speak for other cultures, but probably holders truer in Asian societies at least)

 

There is no argument, no debate, no competing theologies.

 

Christianity on the other hand... have you seen the depth of discussion in the Lion's Den? (Of course you have Ironhorse...still waiting for a reply to the latest 'simple queries')

 

While you can break down the general story line to a simple summary paragraph, that in no way makes the whole message simple. It's like you can break evolution down to a few simple lines to explain it, but the theory of evolution is quite complex and still being studied.

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I love being free from Christianity. I love no longer having to filter all my thoughts and opinions through scripture (is this the Lord's will? What does the Bible say about this?). I love being able to do yoga and to meditate without worrying that it's evil. When I let go of Christianity, it was like coming out of a stuffy room into fresh air and sunshine.

 

It was liberation. Fresh air and sunshine indeed. Simple, no need for priests or man-made requirements. Just let go, live and go from there. It gave new personal meaning to the definition of peace.

 

 

This ironhorse guy is still here?

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Yes, Ironhorse is still here debating with us in the den. He last posted two days ago in another thread.

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This is the wonder of simplicity of the Christian message….the good news of the Gospel. It’s free! I can’t do a thing to earn it.

 

Actually in a lot of chiristian denominations (yours included probably) you do have to earn it. One of the more common ceremonies for this is a public acceptance (often preceded by an invitation with prayer, and then followed by praises and blessings and prayer) Some circles expect you to speak in tongues at this time, to verify that you've earned it. Within denominations that serve this ritual, you have not earned salvation if you don't at some point ascend the rite. If you never do, you are not publicly ordained a true christian believer.

I'm not speaking for all christian ideologies here, just saying that there are quite a few who would differ with you absolutely. On the surface they might all say what you're saying, but a lot of christians aren't really known for being straight forward about things.

 

You are talking about becoming a believer right? Hearing the gospel and becoming a believer?

 

So in your denomination, what kind of rite do you practice for ordaining new believers? What is your denomination?

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I prefer the simplicity of atheism and science. I don't need to have all the answers. I respect life knowing we only get one shot. I don't need to feel guilty for enjoying the simple pleasures of life - an active, open sex life with my wife and others, some beer from time to time, not wasting time or money on religion, and allowing myself to be a bit selfish without worrying about what "god" or his followers think. 

 

That is simple.

 

Simplicity of ... science? Please elaborate.

 

 

The philosophy of science is simple, at least to me. The processes of study and the scientific method might be complex, but the idea that objective evidence is needed before a hypothesis is accepted is absolutely beautiful. It cuts through the bullshit woo and is ice cold about "feelings" and "subjectiveness". It cares not for what you or I or anyone else thinks - if the theory backed by objective evidence, then it's as true as we know it - until other evidence is found that contradicts it, which then requires modification to that theory.

 

The beauty of science is that we don't know for 100% - it is always open to change, so long as that change is supported by objective evidence. 

That's what I mean about simple. 

 

 

^^^No. Please don't. Those who find science "simple" generally don't understand it.

 

And I fully understand the scientific method and science, thanks. Before I switched majors to music, I was in school for meteorology and wanted to work in the field as a researcher (not just some TV weatherman).

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My reply to Voice's comments and questions.

 

 

Actually in a lot of chiristian denominations (yours included probably) you do have to earn it. One of the more common ceremonies for this is a public acceptance (often preceded by an invitation with prayer, and then followed by praises and blessings and prayer) Some circles expect you to speak in tongues at this time, to verify that you've earned it. Within denominations that serve this ritual, you have not earned salvation if you don't at some point ascend the rite. If you never do, you are not publicly ordained a true christian believer.

 

 

Offering an invitation to come to the front, prayers, songs are all fine but should not be presented as the ONLY WAY to accept Christ.  John 3:16 does not require any of those things. A believer receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion. Present day Pentecostal teaching on tongues is, I believe, a dangerous false teaching. 

 

 

I'm not speaking for all christian ideologies here, just saying that there are quite a few who would differ with you absolutely. On the surface they might all say what you're saying, but a lot of christians aren't really known for being straight forward about things.
I agree with you. There are some denominations who will agree with what I am saying but they are not quite straight forward on letting it be known.

 

I have seen pastors pleading for people to walk to the front and get saved. They press the idea you must declare Christ in front of people to get saved. The facts are a person could be driving home in his truck after the meeting and accept Christ. It does not have to happen within some constructed service or ceremony.

 

You are talking about becoming a believer right? Hearing the gospel and becoming a believer?

 

Yes, that was the point I am trying to make here. It’s like the thief of the cross who turns to Christ and just asked to be remembered. Christ heard him and knew his heart.

 

So in your denomination, what kind of rite do you practice for ordaining new believers? What is your denomination?

 

New believers are accepted as fellow believers and welcome to attend services and participate in communion.  A believer can join as a member of our church by talking to the pastor or walking to the front.Members can be active as teachers and other work.

 

I’m Baptists.

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Of course, it's easy to say that the Christian message is simple if you do what you have done, which is ignore all of the bits of your religion and holy book that you find contradictory, confusing, or that you just don't like. What you don't realize is that you have left yourself with something that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike Christianity as most other Christians would believe. What you do can be summed up in a single word: cherrypicking.

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My reply to Voice's comments and questions.

 

 

Actually in a lot of chiristian denominations (yours included probably) you do have to earn it. One of the more common ceremonies for this is a public acceptance (often preceded by an invitation with prayer, and then followed by praises and blessings and prayer) Some circles expect you to speak in tongues at this time, to verify that you've earned it. Within denominations that serve this ritual, you have not earned salvation if you don't at some point ascend the rite. If you never do, you are not publicly ordained a true christian believer.

 

 

Offering an invitation to come to the front, prayers, songs are all fine but should not be presented as the ONLY WAY to accept Christ.  John 3:16 does not require any of those things. A believer receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion. Present day Pentecostal teaching on tongues is, I believe, a dangerous false teaching. 

 

 

I'm not speaking for all christian ideologies here, just saying that there are quite a few who would differ with you absolutely. On the surface they might all say what you're saying, but a lot of christians aren't really known for being straight forward about things.

I agree with you. There are some denominations who will agree with what I am saying but they are not quite straight forward on letting it be known.

 

I have seen pastors pleading for people to walk to the front and get saved. They press the idea you must declare Christ in front of people to get saved. The facts are a person could be driving home in his truck after the meeting and accept Christ. It does not have to happen within some constructed service or ceremony.

 

You are talking about becoming a believer right? Hearing the gospel and becoming a believer?

 

Yes, that was the point I am trying to make here. It’s like the thief of the cross who turns to Christ and just asked to be remembered. Christ heard him and knew his heart.

 

So in your denomination, what kind of rite do you practice for ordaining new believers? What is your denomination?

 

New believers are accepted as fellow believers and welcome to attend services and participate in communion.  A believer can join as a member of our church by talking to the pastor or walking to the front.Members can be active as teachers and other work.

 

I’m Baptists.

 

So long as Ironhorse confines himself to the gospels he can make the Christian message seem to be simple.

 

But the origin of this message comes from the "historically accurate" scriptural report of events in a certain garden.

 

Here, a talking snake questioned the only woman in the world about a conversation that her mud man husband had with God about a magical tree, before she had been formed out of one of hubby's ribs.

 

Which also happened before the duck-billed platypus, the giraffe, the locust, the hump-backed whale and the fruit bat were all found to be unsuitable companions and workmates for the mud man.

 

But after God had created the entire universe in just 144 hours and after He then made His handiwork it look as if it had evolved for 13.7 billion years.

 

Simple!

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Do not stumble over the simplicity of the Gospel message of salvation!

 

 

Do not stumble over the fact that I and others have asked questions and posed quandaries for you that you have ignored.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that you're proselytizing and starting to piss me off.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that the mods could drop the ban-hammer on you for shit like that.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that despite my crass language and give-not-a-fuck attitude, you're forgetting that I was a pastor and evangelist, paid to parrot the bullshit you're trying to gloss over.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that the day you agree to meet me in a serious debate on here, I will rip your fairy-tale "simple" bullshit to shreds using ONLY competing Christian theologies and ideologies.

 

Whenever you're ready, lemming.

 

 

My reply L.B.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that I and others have asked questions and posed quandaries for you that you have ignored.

 

I have not stumbled. I have read every word you and others have posted. It takes time for me to think and reply to the many questions I receive.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that you're proselytizing and starting to piss me off.

 

Rules posted for The Lion’s Den: This is the section of the board where Christian opinions, arguments, sermons and so on will be more-or-less tolerated. Aggressive evangelism is permitted in this section, but aggressive evangelists should be ready to be met by equally aggressive resistance.

So as Barney Fife would say, “I’m the agress-see evanjellowist and it seems, you are the agressee-resis-tee.”

 

Do not stumble over the fact that the mods could drop the ban-hammer on you for shit like that.

 

I’m am always aware to follow the rules of this forum.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that despite my crass language and give-not-a-fuck attitude, you're forgetting that I was a pastor and evangelist, paid to parrot the bullshit you're trying to gloss over.

 

I’m not glossing over anything.  Scripture passages that I cannot explain, I will admit. Passages I understand, I will post an explanation.

 

Do not stumble over the fact that the day you agree to meet me in a serious debate on here, I will rip your fairy-tale "simple" bullshit to shreds using ONLY competing Christian theologies and ideologies.

 

You are more than welcome to comment and challenge any of my posts.

 

Whenever you're ready, lemming.

 

“But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”

~ 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)

 

I try to be ready. 

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I try to be ready. 

 

 

BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!

 

As if you've ever given a thoughtful answer to any question here, ever.

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ironhorse, on 13 Oct 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

 

 

 

This is the wonder of simplicity of the Christian message….the good news of the Gospel. It’s free! I can’t do a thing to earn it.

 

 

..............

Furball said:

 

Salvation is not a free gift. This is a heresy of the baptist sect of christianity. Believing is not just some type of mental acceptance that jesus died for you; believing in jesus for salvation means to obey jesus.

 

 

 

You do err in your reading and understanding of the scriptures.

 

 

..............

 

It's the basic law of logic, something cannot be true and false at the same time in the same CONTEXT. God's universe is governed by laws. Just as the law of flight counteracts the law of gravity, God's law of freedom to choose counteracts giving someone a gift they're UNWILLING to accept. If someone gives you a check for one million dollars you can CHOOSE to cash it in or leave it. God is LOVE (noun) & He's also loving (adjective), love does not force. How many of you here heard about the Bye Felipe Creeps & about Women Who Refuse? I recently learned that females can rape men (but they usually use manipulation rather than force). God is not a Bye Felipe Creep or a rapist. He made the provision for all men to be saved but not all men will CHOOSE to be saved.

 

He said if you love Me keep My commandments, without the love factor, service to God will be legalism. It's SIMPLE, the WAGES of sin is death; the GIFT of God is eternal life. I know, I know, usually we say if it's too good to be true it usually isn't true. It's our inherent skepticism that makes us like that. However, is there anything (that is not contrary to His Holy nature- He can't lie or be tempted to sin etc.)too hard for God ( Jer. 32:27)? He made salvation simple, but humans make it hard for themselves- for the way of the transgressor is hard (Proverbs 13:15).

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Yes. Apparently it is too hard for god to say exactly what he means. That is why we have to understand this particular scripture within its historical context; but we can take some other scripture at face value.

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Yes. Apparently it is too hard for god to say exactly what he means. That is why we have to understand this particular scripture within its historical context; but we can take some other scripture at face value.

God has said & is saying what He means; it's stiff-necked humans who make things complicated by making simple commands (love God & your fellow man) complex.

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Are you suggesting that EVERY verse in the bible means EXACTLY what it says?

 

Answer carefully, Thumperina.

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Are you suggesting that EVERY verse in the bible means EXACTLY what it says?

 

Answer carefully, Thumperina.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, the TOPIC is the simplicity of the Christian Message. The OP said what Solomon basically said in Ecclesiastes 12:13 which basically says to love God & each other. The 10 commandments are comprehensive. However, skeptics fail to understand that there's a wily foe that muddied/muddies the waters & he initiated making God's simple commands seem complicated & God PERMITTED it because He's longsuffering. He wants to reason with us so we can have a willing relationship with Him.

*speaking quite softly* Please read my sig' again?

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So, you can't simply answer the question?

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So, you can't simply answer the question?

its why sometimes is useful to ask why someone believes because someone might take the wrong view of something to square it with otger things they believe to be true. Its why i suspect there schools on how to read the bible the proper way.
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So, you can't simply answer the question?

Yes, naughty Professor, um, I mean Redneck. I did answer it but you know believers have to qualify answers because of the casuistry of skeptics *raised eyebrow* lol. Because of deception many answers need to be qualified, as a simple yes or no answer can be wrested out of context. The gospel(good news of salvation) is SIMPLE but it is hid from unbelievers/ disbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:3). As I said, Satan complicated/complicates things ( Matthew 13:28); a longsuffering God worked/works with all the elaborate mess which cause humans to deviate from the SIMPLE everlasting gospel (Rev 14:6). Therefore, in that sense, some portions of scripture are not easily understood (2 Peter 3:16). However, believers will be guided into all truth (John 16:13) & truth is learned in increments (Proverbs 4:18).

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