Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

The Simplicity Of The Christian Message


ironhorse

Recommended Posts

number-seven-in-red-md.png

 

I am now keeping count of how many times I have put the following question to Ironhorse, in this thread.

 

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

 

four-clip-art-at-clker-com-vector-clip-a

 

I am also keeping count of how many times I have sent this question directly to his Inbox.

 

 

tumblr_lmuzabYtUC1qg2amc.jpg

 

And this is the number of days since I began doing these things.

 

130_zero.jpg

 

 

And this is the total number of his responses.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A copy of the above message has just been PMed to Ironhorse's Inbox.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except for when you have to think about everything you do before you do it to check that it glorifies your god, a problem under which a lot of things fall. Is it OK to watch R-rated movies? What about their artistic value, is that a factor? Are you allowed to watch movies or read books or listen to music with cursing? If you do, isn't that causing others to sin by supporting their sinful activities (e.g., using profanity, taking off clothes or kissing someone who isn't their spouse for a film role)? If you're friends with people who do anything around you that you consider sin, are you tainting your spiritual purity? Are you required to tell everyone you meet about Jesus? If you feel uncomfortable doing this, is that denying knowing him and will it cause you to go to hell? If you don't feel like getting up for church in the morning (even if you go anyway), is that a sin for which you must ask forgiveness? What about former Christians - are they going to hell, even if they used to believe sincerely? Are you required not to associate with someone who denies Jesus, in case you get led astray? And on and on and on.

 

Christianity is so often misrepresented as simple, when its message and the Bible that Christians must follow open the door to so much confusion and ways that one could sin. How do you pack its many interpretations into one clear and cohesive set of instructions?

 

Yes, not that simple in practice , is it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Ironhorse,

 

Before it's 2017, please answer this really simple question.

 

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

 

This is the eighth (8th) time I've asked!

 

And it will be the fifth (5th) time I've PMed it directly to your Inbox.

And it will be the fifth (5th) time I've PMed it directly to your Inbox.

And it will be the fifth (5th) time I've PMed it directly to your Inbox.

And it will be the fifth (5th) time I've PMed it directly to your Inbox.

And it will be the fifth (5th) time I've PMed it directly to your Inbox.

 

And I have been doing these things for thirty four (34) days now.  (Please don't make me copy this sentence out thirty four times!)

 

If you have nothing to fear, nothing to hide and nothing to lose, please answer the question.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A copy of the above message has just been PMed directly to Ironhorse's Inbox.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

 

~ BAA

 

 

As a believer, in light of John 3:16 I believe God exists. Therefore I believe God is the Creator.

Now whether I view the creation in Genesis 1 as Young Earth Creation, Gap Theory Creation, Time-Relative Creation, Old Earth Creation, Theistic Evolution (with a literal Adam and Eve) or Theistic Evolution (no literal Adam and Eve)….

Whatever view I hold has nothing to do with the simplicity of the good news that salvation is found in Christ alone. A person does not even have to know any of thescriptural accounts in the creation story to accept Christ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

But a person does need to be convinced of "sin" as it is presented in the genesis account of "the fall of man", in order for "salvation" to have any meaning.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But a person does need to be convinced of "sin" as it is presented in the genesis account of "the fall of man", in order for "salvation" to have any meaning.

 

+1. What, exactly, do we need saving from? And why? Isn't the whole thing a huge design flaw on God's part?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

Ironhorse, as TRP pointed out, not having a literal Adam and Eve does away with original sin and thus the need for Jesus and God's plan.

 

SO

 

1) Do you accept that doing away with a literal Adam and Eve negates the plan of salvation? Paul said "for for ONE MAN (Adam) did sin come into the world, and by one man (Jesus) sin is taken away". Therefore any 'Christian theory' that does away with a literal Adam and Eve does away with sin and thus the need for salvation. Therefore it is very important as to which view you hold.

2) IF you don't accept that Adam and Eve were literal, then how do you explain Jesus referring to them as literal?

3) Why won't you be straight up with us an tell us which view you have? You will have a view of Genesis chapters 1-4. So be straight up and tell us.

 

And welcome back after a short hiatus 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He cannot answer these without becoming one of us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

 

~ BAA

 

 

As a believer, in light of John 3:16 I believe God exists. Therefore I believe God is the Creator.

Now whether I view the creation in Genesis 1 as Young Earth Creation, Gap Theory Creation, Time-Relative Creation, Old Earth Creation, Theistic Evolution (with a literal Adam and Eve) or Theistic Evolution (no literal Adam and Eve)….

Whatever view I hold has nothing to do with the simplicity of the good news that salvation is found in Christ alone. A person does not even have to know any of thescriptural accounts in the creation story to accept Christ.

 

Thank you for confirming you believe that Genesis is purely symbolic and not historical, Ironhorse.

 

That sin isn't real and is just part of an antiquated story from an ancient and irrelevant text.

 

That there was no historical or scriptural reason at all for God to become a human being.

 

That Jesus' suffering and death on the cross was meaningless because it solved nothing and healed nothing.

 

That it doesn't matter if Jesus rose from the dead or not because sin isn't real anyway.

.

.

.

Ummm... so why did you say that salvation is found in Christ alone..?

 

Salvation from what?

 

Do tell.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

Do tell, indeed, Ironhorse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

 

~ BAA

 

 

As a believer, in light of John 3:16 I believe God exists. Therefore I believe God is the Creator.

Now whether I view the creation in Genesis 1 as Young Earth Creation, Gap Theory Creation, Time-Relative Creation, Old Earth Creation, Theistic Evolution (with a literal Adam and Eve) or Theistic Evolution (no literal Adam and Eve)….

Whatever view I hold has nothing to do with the simplicity of the good news that salvation is found in Christ alone. A person does not even have to know any of thescriptural accounts in the creation story to accept Christ.

 

 

Not surprisingly, Ironhorse provides yet another of his shallow, empty and myopic responses.  Notice how he ignores BAA's (and others') focused questions and arguments.  He just repeats his claim that his message is simple, while conveniently ignoring other messages contained in his source.  He even doubles down (a bit) claiming a believer does not need to pay attention to Scripture that is the premise of his message.  Indeed, he states his view on the other Scriptures "has nothing to do" with his message.

 

What a coward.

 

To the lurkers:  this is a good example of what decades of religious indoctrination can do to your brain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He cannot answer these without becoming one of us.

 

 

I am one of you. We are all human and as humans we know we are not perfect. If we claim we are perfect, we are lying to ourselves.

 

Agree?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

 

He cannot answer these without becoming one of us.

 

 

I am one of you. We are all human and as humans we know we are not perfect. If we claim we are perfect, we are lying to ourselves.

 

Agree?

 

You seem to have intentionally deflected the point there Ironhorse. Jeff wasn't implying you were not human, he was making the point that you are constantly either sidestepping, or ignoring our questions rather than answering directly. Thus Jeff's point "He cannot answer these without becoming one of us." I think the inference here is that IF you did answer HONESTLY you'd find your argument breaking through the already thin ice.

 

If I'm incorrect then you should have no issue with answering these questions directly and with deflecting or side stepping.

 

1) Do you accept that doing away with a literal Adam and Eve negates the plan of salvation? Paul said "for for ONE MAN (Adam) did sin come into the world, and by one man (Jesus) sin is taken away". Therefore any 'Christian theory' that does away with a literal Adam and Eve does away with sin and thus the need for salvation. Therefore it is very important as to which view you hold. (You have previously stated what view you hold doesn't matter, but I have shown it does... if you believe the bible.)

2) IF you don't accept that Adam and Eve were literal, then how do you explain Jesus referring to them as literal?

3) Why won't you be straight up with us an tell us which view you have? You will have a view of Genesis chapters 1-4. (Literal or metaphorical) So be straight up and tell us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i think we have to accept that he is/will/can NOT answer if genesis 1.1 is historical to be taken literally, and he wants the ex-C folks to give him a break,,,,

 

god's message is simple, believe or go to hell,,,,,

believe in jesus, literal, historical or allegorical, whatever, all never mind, just believe and you will end up in heaven in gods grace,,,,

 

after seeing his reply, he is not a deflector or questions,,,,

 

he has comprehension problems

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i think we have to accept that he is/will/can NOT answer if genesis 1.1 is historical to be taken literally, and he wants the ex-C folks to give him a break,,,,

 

god's message is simple, believe or go to hell,,,,,

believe in jesus, literal, historical or allegorical, whatever, all never mind, just believe and you will end up in heaven in gods grace,,,,

 

after seeing his reply, he is not a deflector or questions,,,,

 

he has comprehension problems

 

 

Yes or no?

 

The question to answer. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

i think we have to accept that he is/will/can NOT answer if genesis 1.1 is historical to be taken literally, and he wants the ex-C folks to give him a break,,,,

 

god's message is simple, believe or go to hell,,,,,

believe in jesus, literal, historical or allegorical, whatever, all never mind, just believe and you will end up in heaven in gods grace,,,,

 

after seeing his reply, he is not a deflector or questions,,,,

 

he has comprehension problems

 

 

Yes or no?

 

The question to answer. 

 

Back to trolling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

i think we have to accept that he is/will/can NOT answer if genesis 1.1 is historical to be taken literally, and he wants the ex-C folks to give him a break,,,,

 

god's message is simple, believe or go to hell,,,,,

believe in jesus, literal, historical or allegorical, whatever, all never mind, just believe and you will end up in heaven in gods grace,,,,

 

after seeing his reply, he is not a deflector or questions,,,,

 

he has comprehension problems

 

 

Yes or no?

 

The question to answer. 

 

Back to trolling.

 

 

 

Trust yourself. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

Ok, I'm now convinced that Ironhorse is a troll.

 

Seriously, IH how are any of your last three answers anything more flagrant diversion or trolling?

 

If you are a christian you are doing a brilliant job at reminding me of why I left Christianity.

 

Ironhorse, if you feel like actually answering some questions then see my post #141 above. Each of those three questions is worth at least a short paragraph EACH to answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Do you deny that your Christian faith requires acceptance of Genesis 1 : 1 as history?

 

~ BAA

 

 

As a believer, in light of John 3:16 I believe God exists. Therefore I believe God is the Creator.

Now whether I view the creation in Genesis 1 as Young Earth Creation, Gap Theory Creation, Time-Relative Creation, Old Earth Creation, Theistic Evolution (with a literal Adam and Eve) or Theistic Evolution (no literal Adam and Eve)….

Whatever view I hold has nothing to do with the simplicity of the good news that salvation is found in Christ alone. A person does not even have to know any of thescriptural accounts in the creation story to accept Christ.

 

Thank you for confirming you believe that Genesis is purely symbolic and not historical, Ironhorse.

 

That sin isn't real and is just part of an antiquated story from an ancient and irrelevant text.

 

That there was no historical or scriptural reason at all for God to become a human being.

 

That Jesus' suffering and death on the cross was meaningless because it solved nothing and healed nothing.

 

That it doesn't matter if Jesus rose from the dead or not because sin isn't real anyway.

.

.

.

Ummm... so why did you say that salvation is found in Christ alone..?

 

Salvation from what?

 

Do tell.

 

 

Salvation from what, Ironhorse?

 

Please do tell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I'm now convinced that Ironhorse is a troll.

 

Seriously, IH how are any of your last three answers anything more flagrant diversion or trolling?

IH/artful dodger is absolutely a troll.

This is why I no longer engage him directly and only comment on his statements and general dishonesty.

He is not here for conversation or debate but to merely posture and attempt to appears like a good Sam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Ok, I'm now convinced that Ironhorse is a troll.

 

Seriously, IH how are any of your last three answers anything more flagrant diversion or trolling?

IH/artful dodger is absolutely a troll.

This is why I no longer engage him directly and only comment on his statements and general dishonesty.

He is not here for conversation or debate but to merely posture and attempt to appears like a good Sam.

 

 

 

There's a certain point where I too no longer deal with certain posters directly (on this and other forums) but instead deal with them in the third person.  That way, I can comment on the post for the possible benefit of other posters and lurkers.  Ironhorse ran out of material quite some time ago.  He rarely took the time to provide any original writing or thinking.  He is a great example of what happens to the brain after decades of religious indoctrination, peer pressure and intellectual laziness.

 

I remember a while ago when he was preaching about how sin entered the world and was passed from human generation to generation.  I asked him what gene(s) were responsible for this and on what chromosome did they reside.  I was hoping for some sort of meaningful response such as (i) I don't know, (ii) sin transcends genetics and is generational due to [fill in the blank] or [iii] something else.  Instead, there was no response.  None.  I asked the same, or similar, question again at a later time.  I remember adjusting the question by asking him to make sure that whatever gene(s) or chromosome he identified did not also exist in other speices of life because, if it did, that would imply that those species (e.g., dolphins, elephants, chimpanzees) also could sin and were worthy of Christian salvation.  Nothing.  No response at all.

 

Then there was Ironhorse's Great Manifesto about how he skeptically analyzed his theism in depth and, notwithstanding the years of critical and honest inquiry, he ended up (conveniently) concluding that his version of Christianity was the best explanation of reality.  The two (yes only two) reasons he provided for this conclusion was (i) the universe is too complicated to be formed by chance and (ii) life on Earth is too complicated to be formed by chance.  Both must have required sky fairy intervention.  That's it.  I commented to him directly that he was basing his personal theology on the argument from incredulity fallacy - twice, how infantile and shallow such reasoning was and that he was being dishonest with himself.  Again, no response.  Actually, I always doubted his claim that he skeptically analyzed his faith.  Instead, I suggested that his theology was the all-too-common result of childhood religious indoctrination, peer pressure, hope of eternal life to see again lost loved ones again (which he personally disclosed here), etc.  He actually responded to this.  He denied it.  That's about the time I concluded his brain is pickled beyond repair.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whatever view I hold has nothing to do with the simplicity of the good news that salvation is found in Christ alone. A person does not even have to know any of thescriptural accounts in the creation story to accept Christ.

 

Well I would say that lots of people don't know any scriptural accounts prior to taking the plunge into Christianity. Its usually taught later when someone goes to church, associates with other Christians and reads the bible.

 

Can someone be a good Christian and get into heaven if they never go to church, never read the bible (nor familiarize themselves with  scripture)  and never associate with Christians?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.