In The Beginning....

[LogicalFallacy]

There were two humans... who produced two sons. The elder killed the younger, then buggars off to the land of Nod where he "knows his wife"

 

Um... where did this wife come from? Did he just wander back to Adam and Eve (Who must presumably had daughters, though this very important piece is conveniently missing in the bible) and say, ok I killed my bro, I'm gonna grab my sis and go f*** her over in Nod?

 

He complains about anyone finding him will kill him! But at that point there is only Adam, Eve... and presumably at least one little sister.

 

Please explain.

 

 

And why the heck didn't I think of this years ago? I have degree level education for goodness sake!!!

[florduh]

Mysterious ways, blah, blah, blah, faith, blah.

 

Some very intelligent and educated people fall for this crap because believing it is not an intellectual decision, but rather an emotional hook.

[LogicalFallacy]

I guess you are right #Williamlanecraig who's IQ is apparently formidable. He is either caught like you suggest above or doesn't believe and is a master at deception.

 

I would like to hear a Christians explanation of my OP question. I am just recently deconverted, but when I try and put my Christian mind-set back on and ask the question I can't justify it or explain it.... probably explains my de-conversion.

 

Ultimately my answer was as florduh said in his first line.

[sdelsolray]

[Shinzon]

The apologetic i heard was the genetic problems were prevent by miracle.

[LogicalFallacy]

Well they weren't prevented by natural means were they. Blimy any excuse.

 

...Doesn't the bible expressly forbid incest?? And yet its used as the human propagation method, not once, but TWICE. Not to mention Abraham and Sarah with the promised son. She was a half sister, so at least one parent. 

 

Then you have King Davids son raping his half sister.... ah ha!... the Bible is where GRR Martin gets his Game of Thrones ideas from!

[Shinzon]

Well them making stuff up is there speciality, after all it has to be true cause ya feel it.

[qadeshet]

This particular contradiction was pointed out by Clarence Darrow in the Scopes trial. The usual Christian answer is that Adam and Eve must have had other children that the Bible doesn't mention. The truth is much simpler. In the Myth, Adam represents Mankind; Eve is the Mother of All Living, Mother Earth. Cain represents agriculture destroying Abel, the Herding lifestyle.

 

Genesis 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Skeptics Annotated Bible

[Geezer]

Even liberal Xians admit the Bible is a collection of myths, legends, & allegorical stories. It's just the fundamentalists that believe the Bible is literally true & historically accurate & there is more than sufficient evidence to prove that isn't true.

 

If anyone is interested in who actually wrote the Bible Dr. Robert M. Price has addressed this issue in several of his books. The Human New Testament & The Christ Myth are two of his books that address that question.

[Guest Furball]

...Doesn't the bible expressly forbid incest?? 

Ray Comfort's answer to this was that god had not prohibited incest yet, so it was legal in god's eyes to sleep with one's sister to procreate in the beginning. 

[Shinzon]

 

...Doesn't the bible expressly forbid incest??

 

Ray Comfort's answer to this was that god had not prohibited incest yet, so it was legal in god's eyes to sleep with one's sister to procreate in the beginning.

which shoots divine command thoery to shit, your basically lettinv plato disprove monotheism saying something like that.

[Guest Furball]

 

 

...Doesn't the bible expressly forbid incest??

Ray Comfort's answer to this was that god had not prohibited incest yet, so it was legal in god's eyes to sleep with one's sister to procreate in the beginning.

which shoots divine command thoery to shit, your basically lettinv plato disprove monotheism saying something like that.

 

Yes, ray comforts apologetics are horrible and unbiblical. 

[rjn]

This particular contradiction was pointed out by Clarence Darrow in the Scopes trial. The usual Christian answer is that Adam and Eve must have had other children that the Bible doesn't mention. The truth is much simpler. In the Myth, Adam represents Mankind; Eve is the Mother of All Living, Mother Earth. Cain represents agriculture destroying Abel, the Herding lifestyle.

 

Genesis 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Skeptics Annotated Bible

 

I've heard of the Agriculture vs Pastoralism idea somewhere before. Seems like quite a legit symbolic retelling if you ask me. I think a lot of Myths are based on similar themes, but most religious people tend to only see the literal meaning.

[ironhorse]

There were two humans... who produced two sons. The elder killed the younger, then buggars off to the land of Nod where he "knows his wife"

 

Um... where did this wife come from? Did he just wander back to Adam and Eve (Who must presumably had daughters, though this very important piece is conveniently missing in the bible) and say, ok I killed my bro, I'm gonna grab my sis and go f*** her over in Nod?

 

He complains about anyone finding him will kill him! But at that point there is only Adam, Eve... and presumably at least one little sister.

 

Please explain.

 

 

And why the heck didn't I think of this years ago? I have degree level education for goodness sake!!!

 

 

 

Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem.  This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc.

The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed.

[Storm]

 

Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem.  This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc.

The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed.

 

IH, even you have to admit that your answer is nothing more than pure speculation. The bible doesn't even remotely infer anything you have just answered. You are imposing your version of reality onto a situation in order to reconcile it in your brain. Its called cognitive dissonance and your brain does whatever it can to resolve it, including reading stuff into it that isn't there.

[rjn]

 

 

Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem.  This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc.

The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed.

 

IH, even you have to admit that your answer is nothing more than pure speculation. The bible doesn't even remotely infer anything you have just answered. You are imposing your version of reality onto a situation in order to reconcile it in your brain. Its called cognitive dissonance and your brain does whatever it can to resolve it, including reading stuff into it that isn't there.

 

 

This. Totally this.

[bornagainathiest]

 

There were two humans... who produced two sons. The elder killed the younger, then buggars off to the land of Nod where he "knows his wife"

 

Um... where did this wife come from? Did he just wander back to Adam and Eve (Who must presumably had daughters, though this very important piece is conveniently missing in the bible) and say, ok I killed my bro, I'm gonna grab my sis and go f*** her over in Nod?

 

He complains about anyone finding him will kill him! But at that point there is only Adam, Eve... and presumably at least one little sister.

 

Please explain.

 

 

And why the heck didn't I think of this years ago? I have degree level education for goodness sake!!!

 

 

 

Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem.  This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc.

The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed.

 

 

This is false.

 

The Bible clearly says that death, corruption and decay entered the world thru the sin of one man... Adam.  

 

Romans 5 : 12

 

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

 

Scripture also says that all of creation was in bondage to decay, for the same reason.

 

Romans 8 : 20 & 21

 

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

 

So the genetic line was not pure.

 

It was polluted by sin, decay and death.

 

We can even see this cumulative genetic impurity in Genesis 5, with the falling longevity of Adam's descendants.

 

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father[b] of Enosh.7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.

9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan.10 After he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.

12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel.13 After he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.

15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared.16 After he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. 17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then he died.

18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch.19 After he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then he died.

21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah.22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 After he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died.

28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah[c] and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed.” 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters.31 Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.

32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.

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By the time of Abram (Abraham) humans were living less than 500 years. (See Genesis 11)

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10 This is the account of Shem’s family line.

Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old, he became the father[d] of Arphaxad. 11 And after he became the father of Arphaxad, Shem lived 500 years and had other sons and daughters.

12 When Arphaxad had lived 35 years, he became the father of Shelah.13 And after he became the father of Shelah, Arphaxad lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.[e]

14 When Shelah had lived 30 years, he became the father of Eber. 15 And after he became the father of Eber, Shelah lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.

16 When Eber had lived 34 years, he became the father of Peleg. 17 And after he became the father of Peleg, Eber lived 430 years and had other sons and daughters.

18 When Peleg had lived 30 years, he became the father of Reu. 19 And after he became the father of Reu, Peleg lived 209 years and had other sons and daughters.

20 When Reu had lived 32 years, he became the father of Serug. 21 And after he became the father of Serug, Reu lived 207 years and had other sons and daughters.

22 When Serug had lived 30 years, he became the father of Nahor. 23 And after he became the father of Nahor, Serug lived 200 years and had other sons and daughters.

24 When Nahor had lived 29 years, he became the father of Terah. 25 And after he became the father of Terah, Nahor lived 119 years and had other sons and daughters.

26 After Terah had lived 70 years, he became the father of Abram, Nahorand Haran.

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So ironhorse's claim about genetic purity is false, making his other claim about the prohibition against incest, also false.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

There were two humans... who produced two sons. The elder killed the younger, then buggars off to the land of Nod where he "knows his wife"

 

Um... where did this wife come from? Did he just wander back to Adam and Eve (Who must presumably had daughters, though this very important piece is conveniently missing in the bible) and say, ok I killed my bro, I'm gonna grab my sis and go f*** her over in Nod?

 

He complains about anyone finding him will kill him! But at that point there is only Adam, Eve... and presumably at least one little sister.

 

Please explain.

 

 

And why the heck didn't I think of this years ago? I have degree level education for goodness sake!!!

 

 

 

Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem.  This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc.

The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed.

 

 

Hi Ironhorse. I've read a few of the topics you participate it - seems that you are our sole Christian resident? A lamb among wolves

 

I am willing to bet that your christian doctrine differs markedly from my fathers... but his answer to that very question was exactly the same as yours.

 

So incest was alright then... because purity, despite flesh being corrupted after the fall as BAA pointed out. So God does change his mind on subjects? Yes, no?

 

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the idea of 'Serpents seed' i.e. the idea that Eve mated with the serpent and produced cain? This is a line of thought among certain schools. (Those same schools of thought say that sin came across in the ark via the women.... mysoginistic critters)

 

Here's another issue, very similar. Fast forward 1600 years or so. Violence fills the earth, God repents he made man and vows to wipe the earth clean. Saves Noah. 

 

Noah's sons repopulate the earth... using INCEST... again! Was the line still pure???

 

And a short time after that mankind is once again in trouble with the tower of babel. Then we have Abraham and Sarah his half sister. More incest... or half incest.

 

If I tell you a book has:

Violence, Murder, Incest, Rape, Dragons, Magic, Kings, Queens, and Slaves

 

Would it be the Bible or Game of Thrones?

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

What you do (or don't do) next in this thread will tell us all a great deal about your character and whether or not we should trust you.

 

Logical Fallacy has refuted your claim about genetic purity and incest with an excellent argument from scripture.  (Good work btw, LF.   )

 

I've done the same.  Both examples contradict your claim about genetic purity and incest.

 

Now, an honest person who saw that their claim has been refuted in these ways wouldn't leave this thread unanswered and wouldn't fail to respond to us.

 

They would either provide their own counter-argument to defend their claim or they would concede that their claim was false.

 

So, an honest person would defend or concede, Ironhorse.

 

Now it's up to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sdelsolray]

The Adam and Eve story literally claims current humans came from one pair of ancestors who lived at the same time.

 

Genetic evidence reveals that current humans do not come from one pair of ancestors living at the same time.

 

Therefore, the Adam and Eve story is literally false.

[rjn]

The Adam and Eve story literally claims current humans came from one pair of ancestors who lived at the same time.

 

Genetic evidence reveals that current humans do not come from one pair of ancestors living at the same time. THAT SCIENCE IS SATANIC.

 

Therefore, the Adam and Eve story is literally false. TRUE.

 

Fix'd.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

There were two humans... who produced two sons. The elder killed the younger, then buggars off to the land of Nod where he "knows his wife"

 

Um... where did this wife come from? Did he just wander back to Adam and Eve (Who must presumably had daughters, though this very important piece is conveniently missing in the bible) and say, ok I killed my bro, I'm gonna grab my sis and go f*** her over in Nod?

 

He complains about anyone finding him will kill him! But at that point there is only Adam, Eve... and presumably at least one little sister.

 

Please explain.

 

 

And why the heck didn't I think of this years ago? I have degree level education for goodness sake!!!

 

 

 

Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem.  This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc.

The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed.

 

 

Hi Ironhorse. I've read a few of the topics you participate it - seems that you are our sole Christian resident? A lamb among wolves

 

I am willing to bet that your christian doctrine differs markedly from my fathers... but his answer to that very question was exactly the same as yours.

 

So incest was alright then... because purity, despite flesh being corrupted after the fall as BAA pointed out. So God does change his mind on subjects? Yes, no?

 

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the idea of 'Serpents seed' i.e. the idea that Eve mated with the serpent and produced cain? This is a line of thought among certain schools. (Those same schools of thought say that sin came across in the ark via the women.... mysoginistic critters)

 

Here's another issue, very similar. Fast forward 1600 years or so. Violence fills the earth, God repents he made man and vows to wipe the earth clean. Saves Noah. 

 

Noah's sons repopulate the earth... using INCEST... again! Was the line still pure???

 

And a short time after that mankind is once again in trouble with the tower of babel. Then we have Abraham and Sarah his half sister. More incest... or half incest.

 

If I tell you a book has:

Violence, Murder, Incest, Rape, Dragons, Magic, Kings, Queens, and Slaves

 

Would it be the Bible or Game of Thrones?

 

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

What you do (or don't do) next in this thread will tell us all a great deal about your character and whether or not we should trust you.

 

Logical Fallacy has refuted your claim about genetic purity and incest with an excellent argument from scripture.  (Good work btw, LF.   )

 

I've done the same.  Both examples contradict your claim about genetic purity and incest.

 

Now, an honest person who saw that their claim has been refuted in these ways wouldn't leave this thread unanswered and wouldn't fail to respond to us.

 

They would either provide their own counter-argument to defend their claim or they would concede that their claim was false.

 

So, an honest person would defend or concede, Ironhorse.

 

Now it's up to you.

 

Bump.

 

Ironhorse, BAA and myself are waiting on your reply to our posts.

[ironhorse]

I will reply first to BAA's comments.

 

 

Ironhorse,

What you do (or don't do) next in this thread will tell us all a great deal about your character and whether or not we should trust you.

 

I’m a far from perfect person. I'm just trying to express my thoughts on my faith here. As I have stated before, we all must come our conclusions on these matters and trust ourselves to make the right choices.

 

Logical Fallacy has refuted your claim about genetic purity and incest with an excellent argument from scripture.  (Good work btw, LF.  goodjob.gif )

I've done the same.  Both examples contradict your claim about genetic purity and incest.

 

It is your opinion the view that Adam’s genes were not perfect. My speculation is based on what I understand from the scriptures. God said at the end of creation, what he created was good. I’m going to assume then that the first humans were perfect, even down their genetic makeup. I could be wrong.

Now, an honest person who saw that their claim has been refuted in these ways wouldn't leave this thread unanswered and wouldn't fail to respond to us.

 

I have not left this thread. Granted I may not post here daily or post immediate replies but I do respond and will respond to other comments in this thread asap.

They would either provide their own counter-argument to defend their claim or they would concede that their claim was false.

 

Your lists of cumulative genetic impurity in Genesis 5, with the falling longevity of Adam's descendants, I think, points to the genetic makeup of the first humans God created as perfect. Over centuries it became less perfect.

So, an honest person would defend or concede, Ironhorse.

Now it's up to you.

 

You have my reply. 

[Shinzon]

Questions for iron horse:

 

Do you belive that miracles are a suspension of the laws of nature as currently understood?

 

Do you believe that scientfic observations that currently observered to be true like, to keep it simple, the theory of gravity(though this applies to all science including genetics) hold true in the past as well as the present?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

If everything god created was "good", does that include the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL?

 

Ironhorse?