Trying To Save My Marriage - 1 1/2 Years Later...

[Insightful]

Hi everyone, 

 

Here's the latest update on my marriage...  I think it's pretty much dying a slow death.  It's been 3 years since I told my wife that I didn't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and that I doubted Christianity on the whole.  Quite honestly, it's never been the same.  We definitely had issues before, but there doesn't seem to be recovery available in the faith area.  

 

I'm weighed down by her constant sadness about our lives and marriage.  I live with the constant worry that I've upset her again on some level.  It's obvious that she does not desire physical affection with me.   I can't remember the last time she told me she loved me - without me saying it first.  Ditto for the last time I was shown affection starting with her...   

 

I guess it's obviously over.  I just can't accept that right now.  There's so much to be mourned and lost with a divorce.  Especially with our two daughters...

 

Anyway, last night, I asked her to fill out this little survey I wrote to assess where we are at.  

 

Here it is:

____________________________________________________________________________________

 

Survey of Where We Stand

 

On a scale of 1 to 10…

 

 

You enjoy spending time with me__4___

 

You respect me as the person I presently am ___4__

 

You believe that I am trying my best to meet your needs__5___

 

You enjoy being married to me____3__

 

You enjoy sexual intimacy with me__2_____

 

You enjoy non-sexual touch from me___3____

 

You believe that I am a positive role-model for our girls_5____

 

You look forward to the rest of our lives together__2____

 

You believe that we will continue positive growth in our marriage that will increase your feelings of satisfaction and optimism in our marriage___4__

 

You believe that we will continue positive growth in our marriage that will increase your feelings of affection toward me__3___

 

_(END)_______________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

I'm not sure what I'm asking you guys exactly...  maybe I'm just needing a little bit of encouragement. =)  Maybe I need to be smacked in the head with the hard truth that it's over and I need to move on.  I know myself,  I'm tempted to stay and keep hoping it will get better.  I fear what will happen to my daughters.  I'm especially close to my oldest and I can't bear the thought of not having custody of her.  I don't want a long custody battle.  I hate that all we've worked for is on the brink of collapse...

 

Thanks for reading.

Insightful

 

[midniterider]

I've been divorced. A child was part of the situation. I would make the same choice again.

 

Once divorced you will still have to deal with the ex at least until the kids are grown up, just a lot less often.

 

That survey result is sad... and that's all because of not believing in imaginary friends. I wish you strength and happiness whether you stay or go.

[florduh]

I'm very sad about your situation. I wish I could help, but some people just can't tolerate an opinion that conflicts with their own. It happens with football, politics and especially religion. The best I can do is offer you that smack in the head you need to get off the starting line and carry on with life.

[MOHO]

Insightful,

 

As you know I'm in much the same boat - excep for no kids. Only a bitchen house in a great neighborhood. I see myself living in a crappy place durring/after divorce due to settlement outcome. Still weighing that againts the daily unhappiness of living with a scream'n fundy. This is a woman who worked for numerous - very high powered attorneys - in Orange County, CA and, I'm sure, that will not bode well for me.

 

I empathize with your situation - tougher than mine I think. Sounds like you guys are done but she will not admit that due to the xianity doctrine regarding divorce. Mine feels that our crappy marriage is God testing her and she will enter the kingdom if she can endure.

 

What a fucked up attitude and what a fucked up situation to be in where asshole pastors - jacking with people's emotions for their own financial gain - are destroying marriages and lives.

 

I'd like to encourage you to move on and find someone more open minded but that would surely be hypocritical on my part as I have yet to do so.

[Insightful]

Thanks guys.  I appreciate it.  

 

The big challenge in my mind right now is allowing myself the freedom to move on.  Everything else I am OK with.  I believe we could make a good life for our kids.  And I think we'd be respectful and effective co-parents. 

 

But I don't take my wedding vows lightly.  I promised forever.  And I meant it.  I was prepared to stay married through ANYTHING...  But I didn't imagine a scenario where my wife would stop loving me - but not want to leave me.  

 

It would be so much easier if she would just leave me.  Then my conscience would be clear.  But it's almost like she's working a loophole - pull out emotionally but "stay" to get credit for "staying."  

 

I really don't like that it's up to me.  I know myself - no matter how wrong she might be, I would still hold myself to the fact that I was the one who LEFT...  It's difficult to decide when her treatment of me counts as "bad enough" to justify leaving...

 

Does "for better or for worse" include staying despite her irrecoverable lost respect for me?  Does it include staying despite not being told that you are loved?  Not being shown affection?  Is that just part of "worse"?  Or is there an implied mutuality?   

[Storm]

I understand what you are trying to do with this, but I am not so sure this survey really says anything of value. I clearly can only see what you are presenting, but I suspect that there is a lot more out there. While it certainly may be true that your marriage is over, it doesn't have to be. If you want it to work, make it work. If she wants it to work, then work with her.

 

Religion is by nature, divisive. She has been trained and probably strongly believes that you are the "enemy". She is probably conflicted. Not sure exactly how she feels or is supposed to feel. She may be talking to her friends and they are telling her stuff that conflicts with how she feels. She probably loves you and wants to be with you, but she doesn't know how that fits with all the changes you have been throwing at her. If anyone deserves some grace, its her. You got to process your deconversion and ponder things at your own pace. She gets to deal with it on your pace, not hers. She is being forced to change whether she wants to or not. Nobody ever does well in that situation. Are these things you have considered?

 

Ask yourself, do you truly love her. Do you really want the relationship to work? She didn't answer 1 or zero in any of them. And some of the questions you asked for responses to were fairly vague. Clearly she sees some things of value in your relationship, or she would have answered with lower numbers. But looking at the answers she provided, I don't think you can say definitively that she is saying the marriage is over. You have changed as a person over the past year, so maybe she is unsure of who you are. Maybe that's why she went with a 4 instead of a 6. She is still trying to figure out what her marriage is, so she is just in limbo. Many of her responses are in the middle of the scale, so she could be swayed to a higher number with more effort.

 

But truth be told, everything you believe at this point and that you are sharing is, to me, purely speculative. Have you actually sat down with her and shared how you feel? Have you actually spent time listening to how she feels? Have you actually talked about what this all means in your relationship? Was your relationship purely because of your religious views? I doubt it. If you love her, then show it. You don't have to agree with her viewpoint or beliefs to have a relationship with her. Relationships take sacrifice sometimes. I am putting this to the test in my own marriage. My wife still wants me to go to church. I really don't want to, but I will go occasionally because she is important to me and I don't want this to be something that drives a wedge in my relationship with her. Its really not that different than me going shopping with her. I don't particularly care to do it, but it makes her happy and I get to spend time with her, so its good for me too. I understand that going to church isn't the same thing as shopping, but if you have the ability to talk about stuff in an engaging manner and if you just listen to her, your talking and time together can be fun and engaging. It is difficult to do this, I will fully admit, but I find that it can be worth the effort. Christianity is not perfect. All Christians struggle with doubt and uncertainty. Its ok to talk about it too. Being a Non believer doesn't mean we have to be jerks and so closed minded towards religion that we cut ourselves off from potentially good stuff. Not everything about Christianity is bad.

 

I guess I am simply challenging the thoughts you are having. I could be way off base.

 

But, can you honestly say that you are doing whatever needs to be done to save your relationship? Are you giving her a reason to love you? Are you loving her? Are you invested in your marriage and your family? Only you can answer these questions.

 

Change is tough. It takes a lot of grit and determination sometimes. But I think its worth it. If you want her in your life and if you truly love her, then work on your relationship. Find out what she needs, what she wants. I doubt you can fulfill all the needs and wants, but you certainly can try. And she can too. Work to find a middle ground.

 

For the record, I am divorced. I understand how it works. Divorce isn't the end of the world. It sucks. But you can build a better life. I did.

 

I am in a situation similar to yours. I deconverted about 3 years ago and my wife is still a believer and still active in the church. It has been a challenge to work around her beliefs and for her to work around mine. But, as dysfunctional as it has been over the past 6 months or so since I came out to her about my unbelief, things are ok with us. I am trying to learn how to find some type of middle ground, and I think my wife is too. I think we will figure it out. There will be mistakes and pain, but I also anticipate happiness and joy as well.

 

I know its not easy, but I wanted to share my 2 cents. I sure hope things work out for you in the end and that you both get what you really need and want.

 

I wish you the best.

[LogicalFallacy]

There are a number of religious/non religious couples who sort out their differences and have very loving marriages (Ken and Charlene Daniels springs to mind)

 

One would think that a religion that says love thy neighbour, love thine enemy, etc would produce women who can accept and love non believing husbands.... but religion. Hitchens referred to it as the single greatest dividing factor for humans.

 

Depending on how old your children are I'd try and work something out with the wife and stay for as long as possible. Children do best in homes with stable relationships.... and you don't want them being fathered by a religious nut, assuming she marries again.

 

PS what Storm said.

[Insightful]

Thanks so much, Storm and LF.

 

Storm, I really appreciate you challenging my thoughts.  I need that.

 

Maybe I need to be a little more "Jim Carrey" and say "a TWO???!!!  out of TEN??!!  [smile growing] So you're telling me there's a CHANCE!!!!" [fist pumps...]   

[Storm]

Thanks so much, Storm and LF.

 

Storm, I really appreciate you challenging my thoughts.  I need that.

 

Maybe I need to be a little more "Jim Carrey" and say "a TWO???!!!  out of TEN??!!  [smile growing] So you're telling me there's a CHANCE!!!!" [fist pumps...]

 

Sometimes a change in perspective is all we need to accomplish great things.

[midniterider]

 

But I don't take my wedding vows lightly.  I promised forever.  And I meant it.  I was prepared to stay married through ANYTHING...  But I didn't imagine a scenario where my wife would stop loving me - but not want to leave me.  

 

"Forever" is a nice romantic fantasy but it's not really practical when something like your situation happens. Please analyze the value of  'promised forever' and see if that idea wasn't also tied to "love, honor and cherish." Did you agree to a hollow, empty sadness ... forever? There's an expectation of some happiness , which is why we get married in the first place.

 

I really don't like that it's up to me.  I know myself - no matter how wrong she might be, I would still hold myself to the fact that I was the one who LEFT...  It's difficult to decide when her treatment of me counts as "bad enough" to justify leaving...

 

I didn't like that it was up to me either. Yes, it was hard to make that decision. Very hard. It was emotionally devastating for me. But the logical part of me also knew it was better than staying. And life improved substantially after that.

 

Does "for better or for worse" include staying despite her irrecoverable lost respect for me?

 

Marriages aren't perfect nor should you run out every time some minor thing goes wrong...but irrecoverable loss of respect? I'd be saying bye bye. You're not a whippin boy. You deserve love , like everyone. She 'chooses' to neglect you emotionally. I can see if something went haywire in her head and she was unable to love you for some reason, that would be more understandable. But willfully ignoring you. That's wrong. 

 

Does it include staying despite not being told that you are loved?  Not being shown affection?  Is that just part of "worse"?  Or is there an implied mutuality?

 

Better and worse implies ups and downs in a relationship. Not a permanent state of negativity.

 

...

 

Anyway, take care.

  

[Blindsighted]

Had some bad advice typed out, but I deleted it.

 

Your kids will be fine either way, but you won't. You know you only have this one life. Once this one is gone, it's over.

 

I would tell you to do what is going to make you happy. No one is forcing you to stay in a bad marriage. You won't win any prizes for being a martyr to a wedding vow and neither will she. You both will just be miserable. But if you want to try a little longer then do that too. I think you should put a time limit on it though.

 

These are just my opinions, it's your life and your decisions.

[GuyGone]

This might or might not be a good suggestion.  But as an ex-pastor, I've done my share of marriage guidance.  Some people will use religion to justify what they really want.  That is, they follow the "rules" but selectively.  It isn't just religious people who do this, although for this forum those are the ones we're interested in.

 

The Bible clearly says (Ephesians 5) that wives are to respect their husbands.  It's not optional based on agreement or disagreement. In Titus 2 there is an expectation that women love their husbands - older women are instructed to teach younger women how to do that.  Ephesians 5 also instructs husbands to love their wives, so it's not one-sided.

 

1 Corinthians 7 says that a believer married to an unbeliever should stay in the marriage unless the unbeliever wants out.  And it isn't supposed to be done grudgingly.

 

So what if you were to mention those verses and say that it seems those things are missing from your marriage and you'd like to know how you might get them back.  And if she's willing to do so. And if not, why those verses can be ignored.  You'd have to be really careful not to be whacking her over the head with the Bible.  But it's a legitimate question if asked the right way.  The basic question is what's broken and how is it mended without forcing you to be something you're not.  Obviously it's a longer conversation than what I've presented here.

[TrueFreedom]

Perhaps an ultimatum to either work on making things better between the two of you (secular counseling, perhaps) or getting a divorce?
Don't stay if you're unhappy.  It will cost you more later if you wait.

[Burny]

Sorry to hear about this situation. There's lots of good advice in this thread from folks who have been there and know far more than I do about the pain of divorce.

 

The only other perspective I can add is that if you're anywhere around 40 years old, you only have another 20 or so good years left before oblivion. Sure! You could get lucky with another 40 but I wouldn't count on it. Remember - you no longer believe in "happy ever after" like you naively did when you said your "forever" vows.

 

My only point is that you have to decide what the last years of your life will be? Trying to live up to fairly tale beliefs about marriage or being the happiest and best human that you can be? It's time for your wife to look in the mirror and decide the same thing. Then move on. It sounds like you're both good parents so your kids will be just fine.

 

Wishing both you and your family all the happiness you all can have.

[Positivist]

The big challenge in my mind right now is allowing myself the freedom to move on.   

But I don't take my wedding vows lightly.  I promised forever.  And I meant it.  

It would be so much easier if she would just leave me.  Then my conscience would be clear.  

Does "for better or for worse" include staying despite her irrecoverable lost respect for me?  Does it include staying despite not being told that you are loved?  Not being shown affection?  Is that just part of "worse"?  Or is there an implied mutuality?   

 

Hi, Insightful

 

I am in a very similar situation. I am going through The Big D after 19 years of marriage, most of those as a devout Christian. We both lost our faith in different ways, but there was also a loss of affection, loss of respect, and loss of connection. The loss of affection actually dates back to my husband not wanting to touch or kiss before our wedding day. Turns out I never really felt "that way" about him--something I didn't get a chance to 'test drive' before marriage, since he had "kissed dating goodbye". Ultimately, my husband and I are releasing each other because we cannot meet each others' needs. At all.

 

So...I can relate to ALL of the things you said in my snipped quote above. I think staying together has its strengths; however, sometimes it is not possible or healthy. People change.  Even if you look at the Bible, which tells us to stick together FOREVER, remember that a typical life span was no more than 45 years, I believe. Easier to stay married when the length of expected tenure is shorter!

 

Peace be with you. You can get through this!

[TrueFreedom]

 

Ultimately, my husband and I are releasing each other because we cannot meet each others' needs. At all.

I think that we're reaching that point as well.  I hope that you both find happiness, my friend!

[Positivist]

 

 

Ultimately, my husband and I are releasing each other because we cannot meet each others' needs. At all.

I think that we're reaching that point as well.  I hope that you both find happiness, my friend!

 

Oh no, really??? Oh dear. Christianity is such poison!

[tycoondon]

Insightful,

 

I'm a little late to the party here.  But hopefully you haven't seen any lawyers yet and you're still checking for new replies in the thread.  I'm going to advise you to do something that nobody else has.  And I will tell you up front that it's a long shot.  But it worked for my marriage.  So while one is a very small sample size I will freely admit, it did still work for me...or at least it seems like it is right now. 

 

I'm guessing from the sounds of things that your wife is a Biblical literalist, i.e. that she believes in Biblical "inerrancy."  This was the boat I was in too.  And mine believed in Calvinism (predestination aka TULIP), and fell for all the Lifeway Christian store trappings and put the Bible verses on Facebook, and all that stuff.  We're talking hard core fundagelical here. 

 

I tried getting her to reason and see the logical holes in the Christian doctrine.  I tried things like asking how a moral god could have committed or ordered the atrocities of the Old Testament only to be told essentially that the Old Testament doesn't count anymore because Jesus brought a "New Covenant."  I tried pointing out that people's religion is largely determined by where they grew up and that if she was born in Saudi Arabia, she'd be a Muslim to which she said people "get saved" every day by missionaries in Saudi Arabia and she would have been one of those people.  And when I call something out as nonsensical that God did such as calling his creation "good" in Genesis 1 and then destroying it in a flood because it was "evil" merely a few chapters later in the same book of Genesis, she says we aren't to question God, his ways are higher than our ways, and that she considers questioning the widsom or intelligence of god's plan to be blasphemy. 

 

These were all conversations that I was trying to have in an effort to avoid going directly at the Bible.  I thought if I had more philosophical conversations with her rather than telling her that her precious Bible is wrong, I could avoid some arguments or at least have less intense arguments. 

 

Now, you might ask why I was having any conversations about it at all.  Many would say that if your wife doesn't leave you over the news of you deconverting that you should just leave it alone and let her remain a Christian.  But I was a bit spoiled.  I was used to having a good marriage, not one that was constantly tense.  If it could have been "live and let live" and things between us been just the same as before, I would have done it.  But the tension was something I knew would never go away completely unless I truly converted back or she at least adjusted her faith.  I now know too much to possibly convert back just like believing in Santa Claus again is impossible once you know the truth.  So I decided that, I would give a little effort at trying to get her to at least soften her stance on Biblical literalism to one held by more rational denominations...that is that a lot of the Bible is metaphorical or allegorical.  I thought this would at least get her to stop being so prudish, puritanical, and judgmental...three things that she used to not be but had become more of in the last few years.  And I thought it would make her less hard-nosed about it and we could resume having a less tense relationship.

 

But as it turned out, she finally told me one day, and in doing so issued somewhat of a challenge, that she was willing to entertain the thought of the Bible not being true but that she would not question god's plan, wisdom, or intelligence and that she wasn't going to answer any more "why" questions (examples of a why question would be "why would a loving god send billions of people to hell?" or "why would a god that created the universe and hates untruths and inspired the Bible's authors allow the firmament to be written into the Bible when that god should know that the firmament doesn't exist, not want inaccuracies in his book, and supposedly had control the content that the writers put in the book?" and the like).  But she said that if I could prove the Bible wasn't true, she'd drop it all.  She said that she could not be one of those "liberal" believers who picked and chose what they believed (which is hilarious since she does exactly that but thinks she doesn't) but that she either had to believe the Bible 100% or she would believe it 0%.  So I had an opening.

 

I first tried talking to her about creation and the Exodus and Noah's flood.  But I got the whole "magic" explanation along with a liberal sprinkling of scribal/copyist errors and translation issues and the usual apologetics stuff.  But my critique of the Sodom and Gomorrah story really shook her.  Currently, we are in the aftermath of her dealing with that.  And she is cracking over it.  She knows she has no apologetics to explain all the holes in that story.  And the fact that she can't wave it away has caused her pause for the first time.  In the event that you think your wife would read it, I can save it as a Google document and create a link to send you.  You are welcome to PM me if you want it.

[tycoondon]

In re-reading my post above, it dawns on me that I didn't make it abundantly clear what my suggestion was.  So here's the nutshell.  You've tried kid gloves for a year and a half and things are just deteriorating or staying bad.  You are likely unable to believe anymore.  This is a real "handicap" in that, while you shouldn't want to believe a known lie, being able to do so would indeed help your marriage but instead you are totally reliant on her changing.  But she's not going to change without having her world shaken up a bit.  So use her "I won't get divorced so I will make you miserable hoping you will divorce me so I can have a clean conscience" stance against her.  If she's going to hang in no matter what, then try to shake her up a little and see if you can get some budge.  At the very least, if it doesn't work and you give up on it, things will improve after that.  I had an uncle that used to say some people beat their heads against the wall because they know it will feel good when they stop.  Well, along that line, even if shaking her up doesn't work, in comparison, it will make later when you do feel so nice to her that she will assume, and possibly act as if, things are "better" between you.

[Insightful]

Hi Everyone - 

 

Thank you so much for all of the helpful suggestions =)   I just wanted to give an update:

 

We had a MAJOR breakthrough and, interestingly enough, it had nothing to do with Christianity.  I'm coming to understand that, although the faith issue is a huge problem in our marriage, it's not the MAIN thing... which is actually a great thing...

 

The breakthrough came about because I finally reached my breaking point.  I was unwilling to continue on in a marriage where love, warmth, and affection were being withheld.  Up until that point (which was about 1 month ago), I was not ready to walk away from my marriage.  I was not in a place where I could truly feel free to walk away.  I would have been plagued by guilt.  I would have spent the rest of my life wondering if I could have done more...  But I had finally had enough.  I was ready to walk away.  

 

So I sat down with my wife and expressed that I desperately needed to be told that I was loved.  I needed to be thanked for all that I do for my family.  I needed to be welcomed home with a hug (at least!).  When she explained (AGAIN) why she couldn't do that, I paused and looked down for what felt like an eternity, waiting for my heart to stop pounding so hard.  Then I looked up and said, "Then we need to start planning for a new life".  After a few more exchanges, she asked, "Is that your final decision?" to which I responded, "Well are you unwilling to budge?".  At this point, I honestly believed my marriage had just ended.

 

We kept talking and agreed to the following:

- for the next 3 months, we would institute new rules

- She would do all that I asked (say she loved me, be warm and affectionate, etc)

- I would make time every night to ask how we were doing and to clear the air from anything negative that happened in our relationship that day

- we would work hard at getting on the same page parenting

- We would re-evaluate on january 15, 2017.

- if there was no progress, we would declare it to be over.

 

It has been going REALLY well.  I'm getting what I need and we are working hard at getting to the root of her issues with the marriage.

 

It's not perfect, but it's very very good.

 

I'll try to post more soon,  but just wanted to give the update.

[Margee]

 

 

It has been going REALLY well.  I'm getting what I need and we are working hard at getting to the root of her issues with the marriage.

 

It's not perfect, but it's very very good.

 

I'll try to post more soon,  but just wanted to give the update.

 

 

Insightful, this is such wonderful news tonight. I think so many relationships could be saved if they were given just one last chance to see if you could work things out. The above description of what you are practicing right now is awesome!! Best of luck and keeping fingers crossed for a real good outcome!!

 

(hug)

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hi Everyone - 

 

Thank you so much for all of the helpful suggestions =)   I just wanted to give an update: ... 

 

I'll try to post more soon,  but just wanted to give the update.

This sounds like a good breakthrough. So glad!

[LogicalFallacy]

Insightful, I echo Margee. Great news, and so happy you both are giving it a real go instead of giving up and not trying.

[Storm]

Happy news! I certainly hope things continue to improve and that you both find what you need in your relationship.

[MOHO]

Sometimes begin right up against a divorce can turn couples around.

 

Worked for me...so far...