Trump 2013: “We Will Have To Leave Borders Behind"

[Blood]

Trump in 2013 advocated for Globalism. No mention at all of protectionism, a border wall, immigration, etc. "Leave Borders Behind."

 

Can't wait to hear the Trump supporters try to hand wave this. 

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/22/business/opinion-donald-trump-europe/

 

I think we've all become aware of the fact that our cultures and economics are intertwined. It's a complex mosaic that cannot be approached with a simple formula for the correct pattern to emerge. In many ways, we are in unchartered waters.

 

The good news, in one respect, is that what is done affects us all. There won't be any winners or losers as this is not a competition. It's a time for working together for the best of all involved. Never before has the phrase "we're all in this together" had more resonance or relevance.

 

We will have to leave borders behind and go for global unity when it comes to financial stability.

 

The future of Europe, as well as the United States, depends on a cohesive global economy. All of us must work toward together toward that very significant common goal.

 

[florduh]

That was before he was trying to get votes from all those nationalistic patriotic American voters looking for a scapegoat. I think Trump is no idiot, but one must court idiots when waging a campaign for the office of president.

 

Look at earlier speeches of any politician. They all flip positions, alliances and even parties more often than I get a haircut. Politics is a game of the elites as they take turns winning while the rest of us always lose.

[♦ nivek ♦]

 

Politics is a game of the elites as they take turns winning while the rest of us always lose.

 

 

QFT

 

 

[Vigile]

What? Trump flip flops? Say it ain't so?!

 

I doubt a single Trump voter is voting for him because they think he's consistent. They are voting for him, like Michael Moore says, to give a big Fuck You! to the establishment. It's the American Brexit. 

 

IMO, it's misguided and won't give them what they want, but let's at least be honest about what it is here. 

[Jedah]

I doubt a single Trump voter is voting for him because they think he's consistent. They are voting for him, like Michael Moore says, to give a big Fuck You! to the establishment. It's the American Brexit. 

 

 

 

I've suspected for a long time that Trump voters vs Clinton voters are on an intellectual bell curve.

 

The average joe that watches and believes what the MSM tells him to will be voting for Clinton.

 

The idiots who actually believe Trumps ideas and wall building will really "Make America great again" are obviously going Trump.

 

Many will tell you that the two above groups are it. That Clintons voter base also includes all the intellectuals. That there is simply no way anyone can vote for the Donald outside of hate and bigotry.

 

But Trump has another voter base - those of us who realize that these candidates have one key difference. Trump and Clinton are comically terrible people with comically terrible pasts and similarly terrible plans for America. Regressive leftism and rampant corruption on one side, Life support for Reaganomics and the less-than-healthy kind of nationalism on the other. But there is one thing Trump has that Clinton doesn't, and that's a big middle finger. Michael Moore gets it. If both candidates lead America down a dark path, we might as well elect the one that has a higher chance of destroying the establishment that allowed this farce of an election to happen in the first place.

 

And thus, the smartest of us will vote for Trump. Not because we like the guy, but because he is punishment in human form.

[Blood]

So you're punishing the corrupt Washington establishment by voting for a guy who brags about being one of the people who has corrupted the political establishment his whole life. 

 

That's genius. I wish I were as smart as you. 

[florduh]

Jeez, Trump is NOT an outsider. Not surprised he can sell that idea to a few, though. American voters traditionally don't really understand the candidates or issues and almost none seem to do any independent fact finding and just leave that up to their favorite mainstream news source.

[Jedah]

So you're punishing the corrupt Washington establishment by voting for a guy who brags about being one of the people who has corrupted the political establishment his whole life. 

 

That's genius. I wish I were as smart as you. 

 

You don't get it. We already know this. There is no delusion that Trump will actually accomplish anything.

 

It's purely just to make them mad.

[Blood]

I do get it. You want to destroy the Washington establishment, but not the establishment whose money and influence constantly creates the corruption, i.e. Wall Street businessmen like Donald J. Trump. That establishment (by your method) cannot of course be voted on, therefore it's beyond the type of moral corrective that you imagine the voters are allowed in the ballot box. Therefore, a highly disproportionate share of responsibility falls on the political rather than the business establishment. Hillary Clinton, by being a public figure, gets to take a massive amount of slings and arrows in the gut, while mostly anonymous bankers and hedge fund managers hide in the shadows of endless shell companies set up in Panama and Switzerland. Out of sight, out of mind. 

 

I might be on board with an authentic "outsider" candidate who genuinely challenged the corruption in Washington AND Wall Street. But Donald J. Trump is simply another corrupt "insider" pretending to be a populist based on nothing except vague assertions he's inculcated from listening to "The Michael Savage Show" and Bill O'Reilly. That he was advocating open borders for trade just three years ago (the op-ed cited in this thread) demonstrates the utter shallowness of his sincerity about protectionist trade policies. A vote for Trump reinforces corruption, since it excuses decades of bad behavior as long as someone pretends for five minutes to actually care about "the workers." 

[florduh]

Trump IS the corrupt establishment just as much as Hillary is. How does anyone not see that?

[Blood]

 

A vote for Trump reinforces corruption, since it excuses decades of bad behavior as long as someone pretends for five minutes to actually care about "the workers." 

 

 

You mean someone like Bill Clinton?  

 

 

 

I noticed that you haven't tried to defend Trump's comments about open borders in post #1. 

 

Silence doesn't make something disappear.

[Blood]

 

So you're punishing the corrupt Washington establishment by voting for a guy who brags about being one of the people who has corrupted the political establishment his whole life. 

 

That's genius. I wish I were as smart as you.

So, WHO in your mind should the voters vote for?

 

 

I've already explained several times why I'm voting for Clinton, not because she isn't corrupt, but because she's a competent, temperate person who thinks and expresses herself like an adult. Trump is also corrupt in addition to being a stupid, childish man-baby. 

[Blood]

I love how you've consistently tried to derail this thread by not acknowledging the original post. Where did you develop this skill, Trump University?

[Jedah]

I do get it. You want to destroy the Washington establishment, but not the establishment whose money and influence constantly creates the corruption, i.e. Wall Street businessmen like Donald J. Trump. That establishment (by your method) cannot of course be voted on, therefore it's beyond the type of moral corrective that you imagine the voters are allowed in the ballot box. Therefore, a highly disproportionate share of responsibility falls on the political rather than the business establishment. Hillary Clinton, by being a public figure, gets to take a massive amount of slings and arrows in the gut, while mostly anonymous bankers and hedge fund managers hide in the shadows of endless shell companies set up in Panama and Switzerland. Out of sight, out of mind. 

 

I might be on board with an authentic "outsider" candidate who genuinely challenged the corruption in Washington AND Wall Street. But Donald J. Trump is simply another corrupt "insider" pretending to be a populist based on nothing except vague assertions he's inculcated from listening to "The Michael Savage Show" and Bill O'Reilly. That he was advocating open borders for trade just three years ago (the op-ed cited in this thread) demonstrates the utter shallowness of his sincerity about protectionist trade policies. A vote for Trump reinforces corruption, since it excuses decades of bad behavior as long as someone pretends for five minutes to actually care about "the workers." 

 

I don't think you really do get it, because you are still talking about the two candidates as if they matter.

 

This election isn't actually about Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. They are both stooges in a fake election.

 

What's happening, and why voting Trump is a fuck you to the establishment, has little to do with Trump and everything to do with the collective movements behind them. The mainstream media, the elite, and all in between will generally tell you to vote for Clinton. Those are the people voting for Trump gives a big "fuck you" to. It's the populace telling the elite that they no longer have credibility.

 

Whether or not Trump actually is anti-establishment is irrelevant, because the movement behind his voter base is. Meanwhile, Clinton supporters are mostly people who have led easy lives and as a result never bother to question what they see on the MSM. They call Trump supporters bigoted, racist, nazi, misogynist, etc not because they personally have been the victim of such things by the hands of any Trump supporter but because that's what they have been told to think.

 

In an election like this, you don't actually vote for a candidate. You vote based on other factors. In this case I am voting against Clintons social justice whiners and virtue signalling elitists.

[Vigile]

Trump IS the corrupt establishment just as much as Hillary is. How does anyone not see that?

 

He can't be trusted, but he's the one who is telling the car companies "If you pick up and move to Mexico, I'm slapping a 35% tariff on your cars so that you can't turn around and sell them back to the US" He's the one saying he's against the TPP. 

 

If I'm a low-income blue collar worker without a college degree, I'm voting for this guy, and so is everyone else in my demographic. 

[Castiel233]

just for the record, Kate Hopkins mocks the vulnerable, and naturally she is an ally of Robert Murdoch and David Cameron.

 

She had her own "chat show", which tanked and is she is considered a racist. After five Londoners where killed, Hopkins took to Twitter to laugh about it.

 

Of course she admires trump, a fellow hater

 

Talentless, classless and charmless, she gives Britain a bad name.......

 

She has compared herself to Jesus.......hahahahahaha, she is the WBC in a single form, nasty , opinionated and cruel.

 

To show just how thick she is , she tweeted, "I'm not islamophobic , Islam disgust's me"

[duderonomy]

 

I do get it. You want to destroy the Washington establishment, but not the establishment whose money and influence constantly creates the corruption, i.e. Wall Street businessmen like Donald J. Trump. That establishment (by your method) cannot of course be voted on, therefore it's beyond the type of moral corrective that you imagine the voters are allowed in the ballot box. Therefore, a highly disproportionate share of responsibility falls on the political rather than the business establishment. Hillary Clinton, by being a public figure, gets to take a massive amount of slings and arrows in the gut, while mostly anonymous bankers and hedge fund managers hide in the shadows of endless shell companies set up in Panama and Switzerland. Out of sight, out of mind. 

 

I might be on board with an authentic "outsider" candidate who genuinely challenged the corruption in Washington AND Wall Street. But Donald J. Trump is simply another corrupt "insider" pretending to be a populist based on nothing except vague assertions he's inculcated from listening to "The Michael Savage Show" and Bill O'Reilly. That he was advocating open borders for trade just three years ago (the op-ed cited in this thread) demonstrates the utter shallowness of his sincerity about protectionist trade policies. A vote for Trump reinforces corruption, since it excuses decades of bad behavior as long as someone pretends for five minutes to actually care about "the workers." 

 

I don't think you really do get it, because you are still talking about the two candidates as if they matter.

 

This election isn't actually about Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. They are both stooges in a fake election.

 

What's happening, and why voting Trump is a fuck you to the establishment, has little to do with Trump and everything to do with the collective movements behind them. The mainstream media, the elite, and all in between will generally tell you to vote for Clinton. Those are the people voting for Trump gives a big "fuck you" too. It's the populace telling the elite that they no longer have credibility.

 

Whether or not Trump actually is anti-establishment is irrelevant, because the movement behind his voter base is. Meanwhile, Clinton supporters are mostly people who have led easy lives and as a result never bother to question what they see on the MSM. They call Trump supporters bigoted, racist, nazi, misogynist, etc not because they personally have been the victim of such things by the hands of any Trump supporter but because that's what they have been told to think.

 

In an election like this, you don't actually vote for a candidate. You vote based on other factors. In this case I am voting against Clintons social justice whiners and virtue signalling elitists.

 

 

Great post Jedah. May I add this?  It's only 47 seconds long, but it seems to agree with what you said.

 

[Blood]

 

I do get it. You want to destroy the Washington establishment, but not the establishment whose money and influence constantly creates the corruption, i.e. Wall Street businessmen like Donald J. Trump. That establishment (by your method) cannot of course be voted on, therefore it's beyond the type of moral corrective that you imagine the voters are allowed in the ballot box. Therefore, a highly disproportionate share of responsibility falls on the political rather than the business establishment. Hillary Clinton, by being a public figure, gets to take a massive amount of slings and arrows in the gut, while mostly anonymous bankers and hedge fund managers hide in the shadows of endless shell companies set up in Panama and Switzerland. Out of sight, out of mind. 

 

I might be on board with an authentic "outsider" candidate who genuinely challenged the corruption in Washington AND Wall Street. But Donald J. Trump is simply another corrupt "insider" pretending to be a populist based on nothing except vague assertions he's inculcated from listening to "The Michael Savage Show" and Bill O'Reilly. That he was advocating open borders for trade just three years ago (the op-ed cited in this thread) demonstrates the utter shallowness of his sincerity about protectionist trade policies. A vote for Trump reinforces corruption, since it excuses decades of bad behavior as long as someone pretends for five minutes to actually care about "the workers." 

 

I don't think you really do get it, because you are still talking about the two candidates as if they matter.

 

This election isn't actually about Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. They are both stooges in a fake election.

 

What's happening, and why voting Trump is a fuck you to the establishment, has little to do with Trump and everything to do with the collective movements behind them. The mainstream media, the elite, and all in between will generally tell you to vote for Clinton. Those are the people voting for Trump gives a big "fuck you" to. It's the populace telling the elite that they no longer have credibility.

 

Whether or not Trump actually is anti-establishment is irrelevant, because the movement behind his voter base is. Meanwhile, Clinton supporters are mostly people who have led easy lives and as a result never bother to question what they see on the MSM. They call Trump supporters bigoted, racist, nazi, misogynist, etc not because they personally have been the victim of such things by the hands of any Trump supporter but because that's what they have been told to think.

 

In an election like this, you don't actually vote for a candidate. You vote based on other factors. In this case I am voting against Clintons social justice whiners and virtue signalling elitists.

 

 

 

Alright. Trump, according to you, is a corrupt fool who can't find Syria on a map, was loudly praising Hillary in 2008 and advocating open borders for trade as recently as 2013, and while his supporters know this, they don't care because the election isn't about him, but is really just about their anger at the political and media elite (once again, little to no anger directed at the financial services elite. That elite is just fine according to Trump supporters). By voting for Trump, the political and media elite are imagined to be cashiered and their ideas rebuked by the will of the people. 

 

I predict that the political and media elite would be even more empowered by a Trump victory, not less, because they would make the election all about the candidate, even if protest voters like yourself had an entirely different conception. They would isolate Trump, put him under a microscope and publicize his every word and flaw, and because (like you agree) he's a stupid, corrupt fool, there would be an avalanche of bad publicity and scandals. Trump would be constantly portrayed as a "national embarrassment" and calls for his resignation would be maintained at a steady drumbeat. And the needs and desires of the "protest voters" would be completely lost in the melee that followed. The economy would also suffer badly, and that would be blamed entirely on Trump and his supporters. 

[Blood]

 

Trump IS the corrupt establishment just as much as Hillary is. How does anyone not see that?

 

He can't be trusted, but he's the one who is telling the car companies "If you pick up and move to Mexico, I'm slapping a 35% tariff on your cars so that you can't turn around and sell them back to the US" He's the one saying he's against the TPP. 

 

If I'm a low-income blue collar worker without a college degree, I'm voting for this guy, and so is everyone else in my demographic. 

 

 

It so happens that I'm a low-income blue-collar worker without a college degree, and I'm not voting for Trump. And I'm not alone. So your theory just went out the window. 

 

If he can't be trusted, why should I believe any of his rhetoric about imposing tariffs, especially when just three years ago, he wrote that Americans "have to leave borders behind"? Maybe blue-collar workers can't be conned as easily as you think they can. 

[Vigile]

without a college degree, and I'm not voting for Trump. And I'm not alone. So your theory just went out the window.

 

 

Maybe if you had a degree, you'd be familiar with the term outlier? Of course, a degree isn't necessary here, but it has been known to help. 

 

If he can't be trusted, why should I believe any of his rhetoric about imposing tariffs,

 

 

You shouldn't. Many do though. 

 

A national CNN/ORC poll released last week showed that 68 percent of likely voters who are white and without a college education support Trump, while 24 percent support Clinton. 

[Blood]

So your basic contention is that blue-collar workers with high school level education are ignorant fools, so of course they're going to vote for Trump because they're easily conned by fake promises about trade protectionism. 

 

Note that you're arguing the opposite of Jedah -- according to him, Trump supporters are actually pretty smart, they recognize that he's a con artist who won't accomplish anything he promises, but they're voting for him anyway simply as a "middle finger to the establishment," not for any tariffs imposed on imported goods. 

[florduh]

So your basic contention is that blue-collar workers with high school level education are ignorant fools, so of course they're going to vote for Trump because they're easily conned by fake promises about trade protectionism. 

 

I think it's evident that uneducated, white, low income blue collar folks are Trump's main demographic target. He plays to them perfectly. Obviously, not all "blue collars" are stupid and/or uneducated. I have been a blue collar guy myself, and I'm a well read frickin' genius!!! 

 

The really stupid Trump supporters are the ones who believe that he's some kind of Washington outsider who will really shake things up.

[Mike D]

Wonderful, we get to pick between a witch and a buffoon.

 

I don't see much of anything changing either way, so the Trump "lets-burn-this-motherfucker-down" vote really doesn't make much sense to me.

 

The rich and powerful will prevail either way, so it's a moot point.  The question is how much do the rest of us stand to lose, based on the outcome?

 

 

 

 

 

[Blood]

Wonderful, we get to pick between a witch and a buffoon.

 

I don't see much of anything changing either way, so the Trump "lets-burn-this-motherfucker-down" vote really doesn't make much sense to me.

 

The rich and powerful will prevail either way, so it's a moot point.  The question is how much do the rest of us stand to lose, based on the outcome?

 

 

 

I see a Trump victory empowering a bunch of kooks like the KKK and the theocratic branch of the right wing. That alone should be reason enough for a "non-believer" to vote for Hillary. 

[Vigile]

So your basic contention is that blue-collar workers with high school level education are ignorant fools, so of course they're going to vote for Trump because they're easily conned by fake promises about trade protectionism. 

 

Note that you're arguing the opposite of Jedah -- according to him, Trump supporters are actually pretty smart, they recognize that he's a con artist who won't accomplish anything he promises, but they're voting for him anyway simply as a "middle finger to the establishment," not for any tariffs imposed on imported goods. 

 

You're the one that added the pejoratives. I've simply been providing an explanation for why they would vote for Trump that doesn't necessarily include racism and xenophobia, which are labels slapped on the entire group by the DNC and it's operatives. It's rational if you're a blue collar worker to want to support a candidate who promises jobs protection when the other candidate promises the exact opposite. That doesn't make one ignorant or a fool. That just makes someone grabbing at the most rational choice available to them in a narrow field of really awful choices.