Open Address To Ex-Xtians

[MoreThanYouSee]

I know that snark, spite, mockery, and venom await those foolish enough to come here to carelessly spar or rub salt in raw wounds. I come to do neither. You may disagree with me. You may disbelieve me. Only try to approach what I'm saying with an open mind. Just note that when I write to "you," it isn't personal, and might not even apply to you, directly or indirectly.

 

I would like to begin by openly admitting to being an Xtian myself--well, duh, it's just under my screen name there to the left. Why would I point that out then? I want you to know that I'm okay with using 'X,' since we all know the origin for that substitution. I'm not one of those Christians who freaks out over "Xmas." And I don't care what day of the year Jesus was actually born on, since December 25th is as good a day as any to celebrate it--or not if you so choose. I rather believe that the reason we don't know the exact day of His birth is precisely because He knew the sort of misery that Christmas would cause for some.

 

 It also doesn't bother me if there are apparent contradictions in the Bible, as a good deal of tap dancing, as some put it, happens over trifling matters, which don't really affect most people living today. I'm not saying that all contradictions are trifling, but some are. And how would I un-convince you anyway of that which you're already firmly convinced is validation for your skepticism? I also don't care if certain days on the Christian calendar coincide with ancient pre-Christian holy days. And yet I do, however, believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and think that scientific understanding and biblical scholarship do and should agree, but when they do not, it is either because we're not correctly and fully understanding something God has said, or we're not understanding the data we're observing properly. But then, in spite of my respect for valid science and rational thought, I have personally witnessed the use of actual "magic," the presence of demons, and the intervention of at least one angel that saved my life--or at the very least, kept me from great harm. You may disbelieve, but I cannot convince you with reason of what I have experienced firsthand. I wish I could. I'm not here to get anything from you, so you have to decide what I gain by saying such things and whether I'm to be trusted. But I'm making the claim, so I need to offer proof. Well, I can't offer anything but my testimony, such as it is. I don't have pictures or videos, and if I did you wouldn't believe them.

 

I also believe that the Bible has equally valid literal, allegorical, and prophetical readings, but that many Christians do not fully realize or understand the import of this statement. Furthermore, I am delighted by the fact that Christianity has value as myth with my one qualifier being that Jesus is the One True Myth, from which all others utterly derive. You likely think me ignorant, but I assure you I am not. I can say this because I do not depend on false teachers for my understanding of Scripture, but upon the Holy Spirit, and the efforts of some trustworthy individuals who have gone before. Again, I cannot prove this much to you with logical arguments. I wish I could. I, however, am not infallible, or brilliant, obviously, or much of anything at all, really, except for Jesus in me. When I do not get in the way with my own selfishness and sin, I am sometimes useful to His purposes in this world. We are living in the church age, and God has chosen to work through us followers, aided by His Spirit. If you are not seeing God at work in the world today, I submit for your consideration that it is our fault rather than His.

 

Before I go on, however, to explain what I said a moment ago about the fact of Jesus as the source of all myth ultimately, I would like to pause and attempt to do something I think is important. I am being sincere. I do not wish to trivialize anyone's experience, but I must address some common concerns I have seen arising on this forum, and elsewhere, before I continue.

 

To all those who are ex-Christian in the sense of having left service to our Lord for the reason that you were hurt or abused in the name of God and religion, I am truly sorry. I apologize to you, and ask you to reconsider your path. That's all. I've been hurt by the religious and the corrupt, too.

 

To all those who have suffered under the oppressive boot of colonialism, planted all the more firmly by those who claim to serve my Lord, I apologize to you. What was done, should never have been. If it makes you feel better--those who know the will of the Father and do not do it will be beaten with many blows, while those who know not but do something worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.  It may be too little, too late, but it's something. It's what I can offer in the hopes of making peace with the past. One of my ancestor's fled from the Trail of Tears, so I'm not entirely clueless.

 

To those who never truly embraced a living relationship with the Christ but left for various reasons, disillusionment being one of them, I extend to you an invitation to return and try again, only on a path more genuinely yours, rather than what someone else would foist upon you, in Him.

 

To those who left because they simply wanted the freedom to engage in whatever they desire, I can offer no apology. You have what you pursued. Everything has its price. If you would consider turning aside, I offer you that. It isn't anything more than an opportunity to have another chance if you so desire. Perhaps what you wanted was not all that you hoped. Perhaps it was. My God is quick to forgive and generous, but people... not so much.

 

To those who have never believed, who have never been Christian, but are here because they wish to participate in a community that opposes Jesus Christ, Christianity, Jebus, Biblegod, doG, RaptorJesus, or simple, foolish people, I only ask that you consider your way this day and ask yourself why you continue to allow yourself to be defined by something you either hate or are simply convinced does not exist. Consider a moment, if you will: You and I are alike insofar as that which we allow to define ourselves. If I am wrong, nobody will care in 100 years, especially me. If you are wrong, you have considerably longer to regret it. If I am right, I am defined by the absolute Creator. If you are right, you are defined by nothing. Your side takes faith and courage, as much or more than mine. But I extend to you an invitation to come anyway, just as you are, faults and all. Or if not, go in peace.

 

If I left anyone out, I apologize. I do not presume to know everyone's circumstance. I'm only addressing recurring themes and patterns I've witnessed. I am not, as it were, responding to stereotypes, but actual statements and testimonies as I've read them.

 

To all of you: It is clear that there is a lot of scholarship on this forum. While some few obviously delight in saying whatever they think will promote their view before an audience, true or otherwise, it is obvious that many of you have spent years studying these matters, scrutinizing them, even perhaps obsessing over them. Is that really the healthiest way to spend the time you have left in this life? Is the hate and rage some of you display really serving you well? Is it truly healing and making things right for you? Because there are healthier ways to live, regardless of your beliefs, than letting bitterness defeat you, because that's what bitterness does. Rather, I urge you, go and be free from this, or turn if you are able and consider Him truly. If it is nothing, then why persist in lingering upon or studying that which you detest? I tell you that God has given you life, food, water, pleasure, some of you great joy, some of you good marriages, good friends, good jobs, and some children. I do not say you've done nothing to earn anything. I do not say you don't know loss or deprivation. I only say that what you have at all you have because God is generous.

 

As for my earlier statement about myth, I will point to Scripture at least this once, and remind you that we are created in His Image. We are the only creature about which this is said, so what exactly does that mean? I was an autopsy technician many years ago after I left mortuary affairs in the army. I worked at the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office in Detroit. I am familiar with death and suffering. I also know that when you peel back the skin to examine what's underneath, there is very little to distinguish us from animals. One may talk about spirit and soul, but that's something a skeptic has a difficult time getting past, so let's talk about what really makes us different from animals. It's not tools. It's not language, though we might like to think so. Some might say it's morality, but I'm not convinced that animals never display any sort of ethical behavioral traits. It's not community or cooperative behavior. No, really, the two things I would argue that mark us as distinct are a propensity for evil and stories. You may say, "Aha! This proves God is evil." But you know and I know that I've got that whole silly talking snake story in my closet that I'm not going to trade in, so why go there? In the end, I'm convinced that what marks us as made in His Image is our love/knack/obsession/passion for stories. Some may cry foul at this, but I have other things which need saying, and I intend to say them for the benefit of whomever may hear.

 

You see, there's a reason why the pattern repeats the world over. You surely know how it goes: a maiden is locked away, the hero rescues her, or there was once upon a time a king who had three sons, or again, there was this beautiful princess who disappeared every night, or a dragon needed defeating, so the brave knight went into the lair and secured a great boon for the people. How about the child of the earth-born and celestial parents? What of the king who dies in a tree? What of Castor and Pollux? Joseph Campbell had some things right, especially regarding the round of the monomyth cycle. Christopher Vogler boiled it down fairly well in his work on the writer's journey. Lord Raglan, Otto Rank, et al. also did some nice work. I assure you I'm not glossing them over, just a bit lazy. It all amounts to the same thing in the end: A very real pattern of storytelling that exists in every human culture the world over, so far as we know, and throughout all recorded history.

 

But you may say, "Yeah, but those scholars did not subscribe to the primacy of Christianity or Jesus Christ himself." And you would be correct, but that does not sway my opinion in the least. It rather strengthens my position in my eyes. In fact, if we look at Raglan's hero pattern, by which we must admit Raglan rates Jesus only at an 18 out of 22 possible points,  we see a very close, if not perfect, match to Christian claims about the Christ. I'll let you look the pattern up on your own as it's too much to add to this already monstrous post. Though, admittedly, one might argue whether Jesus indeed meets the criteria for each and every point, and perhaps I could make a strong argument for matching all 22, yet I don't believe that even if I did it well it would convince you.

 

And here's the rub. One might say the pattern exists because mankind evolved under a set of circumstances that led to the development of a repeating cycle that pits a lone hero against outside forces for the salvation of the tribe. Or one might say that the pattern simply pre-dated Christ, as some have done, and the Christians only co-opted it. Toe-may-toe, Toe-mah-toe. You see. I will always believe that Christ is the Word and the Light and that we are merely surfaces scattering reflections and echoes of that sound and that light, even altering its qualities as it passes among us. Just as the light reflected from the earth, the moon, and mars are all from the same source, yet given distinctly different qualities by interacting with those bodies, so, too, do we interact with His Light and His Sound. Whether I fall or not, I shall always believe these things because of the way I received them. All of us, I will claim with my dying breath, when we tell stories, are serving in that capacity, whether the story is true or not, no matter how we've corrupted the story by our own natures. We cannot help but echo and reflect the Christ. Even pornography becomes, in this way of thinking, nothing more or less than a perversion of the marriage between the Christ and His Bride, which is not truly physical--though the physical act we engage in with those we ought to love is a deep mystery I could expound upon in depth, had I the inclination and proper forum to do so. And, likewise, you may always believe, just as stubbornly, just as sure, that it was the other way round. I cannot argue you over to my way of thinking by pure reason alone, and you will not sway me from mine with all the jibes you can muster. So it seems that again we shall once more arrive at only an impasse between two or three perspectives.

 

But here's the really cool thing about the Bible. If you set down and look at it, really look at it, not for the sole purpose of picking it apart, but to see if what I'm saying is true, you will see that all those stories in the Bible reflect in some capacity the story pattern, and Christ in particular. Especially if you look into the meanings of words in the original languages. Some Christians already speak of a portion of the pattern when they talk about types of Christ, but it goes so much deeper. And if you begin to understand this, if you really look into the pattern, and you look at the NT writers, there is even evidence that they knew this very thing to be True. It is for this reason that Matthew used the translation of the word meaning "virgin" when the word as used in the referenced context meant something very different. It is for this reason that the NT prophecy in Matthew refers to "Nazarene," but the original word used  in the OT was actually "Nazirite." It is for this reason that John, at the end of his gospel, makes a statement that many regard as hyperbole, but I regard as something significantly more--the statement about not being room enough in all the world for the books that would be written. And there are other clues as well. The writer of Hebrews even gives precedent in the figure of Melchizedek.

 

Let us back up, then, because it's important to return to Genesis where all the "problems" of Christianity begin. If we begin to understand that our story is made a reflection and echo of God's story--the story of Christ, if I am right, then we begin to understand so much more about the Bible and what it's really saying. For instance, the tree. If we understand that Christ would have to go to the tree as a result of us going to the tree, we might then begin to wonder what other parallels might exist. You may ask, "Was it a tree, a staff, or a cross?" The archetype solves the problem of contradiction, at least in this instance, because there is room for a tree, a staff, a cross, and many other possibilities within the nature of archetypal objects. Thus, the serpent in the tree, becomes the image of the serpent on the pole, becomes the image of sin, on Christ, at the cross.

 

Furthermore, If we begin to understand that because, as a result of our choosing to disobey one simple rule, God would come to understand how it felt to experience the death of His Child, then we might begin to understand why it is that we, too, would have to experience the death of children. If we begin to understand that since our sin would cause the heavenly Father to go away from us, then we begin to understand in our reflection of His story, just why our earthly fathers had to go away from us, say, to work, or to pursue some other purpose. If we begin to understand that, just as Adam entered a sleep, and through a wound in his side God would send to him the woman, the love of his life, we begin also to sense a parallel in the One Who died on the tree, Who had His side pierced for the woman He loved, and immediately after a type of sleep, a death in fact, we would receive not only the possibility of becoming the Bride of Christ, but also the gift of His Spirit. And, oh, by the way, the Jews were right, at least in part, about the nature of the Holy Spirit. Leonard Nimoy fans may understand what I'm saying here. You know what you know in this matter. I've said enough.

 

Now, many will sneer and say, "Then why would god create the stupid tree in the first place? See, he's evil, weak, incompetent, uncaring, etc." But He chose to make us in His Image, which means our existence had to involve a moral choice--not only a token symbol of free will, but a choice of true import. He did this because to do otherwise would have meant to make either a lower animal, a robotic slave, or some lesser, unworthy thing. If we were just another animal, then we wouldn't be at the pinnacle of His Creation on Earth, we wouldn't know or do, see or experience, all the good we can and will experience, including the possibility of salvation. If we were just robotic slaves, we would not experience any existence of worth, for we would have no free will, as everything would simply be pre-determined in every way for us. Even the angels were not subjected to this horrific experience. As it is, we are a little lower than the angels now, but one day we may expect much more.

 

And why, you probably yet wonder, would He make a being He knew would be subject to fall and turn and cause all manner of pain (I only say it because I know, for some here, it is true)? At the present time, I cannot go beyond what I have said on this, so I will say that I cannot give you an adequate answer. You may return to the argument that God is evil or weak, but I cannot see it that way. Rather, I see the situation as being comparable to the case where a man risks much to gain a friend, but that friend betrays him, and then--rather than blaming the traitor we blame the man for seeking a friend in the first place--but we could go round and round on this.

 

In any case: God certainly does not owe us more than He has already given, whether by way of explanation, by means of life itself, or by opportunity of salvation. If you cannot reconcile the God of the OT with the God of the NT, that is not a matter for me but I understand why it is for you. I offer that I believe that God does not change, but His methods of interacting with humanity do, perhaps not day to day, but from age to age. Digging into word meanings actually stands to support this assertion as well, but I refuse to do all the heavy lifting. If you want to know, go look, but be prepared to look deep, because if it has eluded many, many before, it may well elude you, too. Beyond this, I assert that God is not required to explain everything He does to our satisfaction. Some will balk at this. I get it. I do not invalidate your fury, your disdain, or your apathy, but I do oppose it with an alternative. As a free moral agent, you are within your rights to disagree.

 

Much more than this, however, awaits the earnest seeker who sets out to test what I have said, and it goes very, very deep. Genesis, when viewed through this lens, actually becomes both history and prophecy, and I can say this because I do not subscribe to the idea that the word translated "day" needs to mean a literal 24-hour day. I also don't believe that Adam began to age until he fell at the tree. Why would we count the years of one who will not die until he falls? Furthermore, the origins of the cosmos, so far as science tells us presently, follows the pattern of the very beginning of things described in the Bible: Light, a light so thick we cannot penetrate the wall of time to see within it, followed by a (long) period of darkness, followed again by light. I could go on and on, but I won't since what I've already given will likely be derided by some and picked apart by others. But some of you may read this and pause; in that pause is eternity. You need only seek it once more. The fact of your pause means it may not be too late for you.

 

The hero descends from his celestial father to save our world: Superman, or Jesus Christ? Superman Returns even had the hero's side pierced for the woman he loved. A remarkable man is born of two bloodlines, one special and one common: Digenis Akritas, Harry Potter, or Jesus Christ? I am not a gnostic, or any other thing, besides a Christian. Indeed, I am what I am. Nothing I have said is counter to what the Bible teaches, although it may run counter to a good many false teachings, doctrines of men and demons, and it definitely counters some of the errors that a great cloud of ignorance keeps perpetuating. To the skeptic, it seems an admission of what many claim: We've merely borrowed, co-opted, or repeated that which went before. To the follower of Christ, it is empowering to see that Christ is actually at the center because we have been made in His Image. C.S. Lewis speaks about some of these same things in God in the Dock. It's worth a read if you haven't already.

 

I am nobody special. I had an Emmaus road experience. I thought I knew Christianity and Christ, until He met me on that road and showed me how He appeared throughout the Scriptures. Why me? I have no idea. I can only say we are not all the same parts with the exact same gifts. You may not like me. You may not agree with me. You may detest all that I stand for. But you cannot say I'm an ignorant moron. Oh, some will call me delusional. Meh... Now, I've given a number of you something to chew. Please refrain from the typical attacks and arguments that lead to deadlocks and dead ends. I won't respond to such. Nobody wants to hear the same thing over and over anyway, as you well know. At least I've given you something different from the same old pleas. If you have not heard all this before it is merely because God does not place many restrictions upon salvation: There is no IQ test to gain everlasting life. But because He cares even for you, He sends this message to you today.

[Geezer]

May I suggest you read The Christ Myth & It's Problems & The Human Bible NT both by Dr.Robert M. Price

 

I was a deeply devout Christian Fundamentalist for 47 years and then I began researching the origins & evolution of the Bible & Christianity. I know you don't, & probably never will, believe this but the God of the Bible, Christianity & the Bible are a man made myths.

 

I would also recommend Dr. Karen Armstrong's book A History of God as more proof.

 

You have beliefs based on faith. I possess knowledge based on history, science, & physics. Your posts also suggest you might be a tad delusional too, but it has been my experience religion has that effect on some people.

[sdelsolray]

...

Now, I've given a number of you something to chew.

...

 

 

I simply observe that you have certain religious beliefs, all of which are sourced to one particular religion and likely further sourced to one of hundreds of sub-genres of that same religion.

 

You seem to control your Christian hubris quite well (good job) and I suspect you are addicted to all sorts of typical apologetics, PRATTS and other irrational thinking.

[yunea]

You sound just like I may have sounded at one point. 

 

You address many people in your post, but what about us who really thought they had a relationship with Jesus, and THAT went horribly, terribly wrong? I'd never have let the other believers hurt me the way they did if I hadn't so clearly felt during prayer that I was on the right path and had to just have trust and faith during scary times.

 

I know you'll probably reply that it was Satan leading me on, but I'll reply that if that's so, for some reason God didn't give me the ability to tell such a thing myself even though my life was on the line. I did pray from day to day, all the time under my breath, "Jesus, thy will be done". 

 

The dead end was an extremely heavy one to find. Like losing a best friend, lover, eternal protection, the life path itself.

 

Please don't assume that we just weren't there like you are now. It's condescending. 

[florduh]

Welcome to Ex-C.

 

Please try to bear in mind that your audience here has been in your shoes. We are former believers representing most common sects of Christianity. Many of us quite devout and lifelong believers. We are former preachers, teachers, missionaries, Bible scholars and apologists. We understand your position but you have no clue as to ours. Most Christians who come here to "share" their Good News and analyze where we have gone wrong make the same mistake.

 

Cheers.

[Thought2Much]

Blah blah blah blabbity blah, blah blah blah blah...

 

That's nice.

[♦ nivek ♦]

 

To all those who are ex-Christian in the sense of having left service to our Lord for the reason that you were hurt or abused in the name of God and religion, I am truly sorry. I apologize to you, and ask you to reconsider your path. That's all. I've been hurt by the religious and the corrupt, too.

 

Welcome to ExC.

 

Please. Do. Not. Try. To. Apologize. For. My. Past. Experiences. With. Family. And. Faith.

 

You have absolutely NO idea about where my shoes have walked me. 

 

Might meet stiff resistance to your attempt of a cheery message. Others here will offer their opinions soon. Be prepared.

 

kevin,fenceriderfortheBoss,L

[Geezer]

As others have noted we've been to the land of Oz & walked the yellow brick road for many years before we looked behind the curtain, only to discover there wasn't anything there. Then we left the land of Oz & returned to reality, but the experience made us much wiser.

[buffettphan]

 Now, I've given a number of you something to chew. 

 

 

No not a bit. 

 

 Nobody wants to hear the same thing over and over anyway, as you well know. At least I've given you something different from the same old pleas. 

 

 

 

That's for sure.  God (if he/she/it exists) knows exactly what it would take for me to believe again.  Another random christian spouting the same old stuff is NOT it.

 

 

If you have not heard all this before it is merely because ....

 

 

My my, aren't you special (in your own mind) thinking you're bringing something new to us.  

 

But have fun while you're here.

[Margee]

Thanks for tryin' darlin'....but no thanks...

 

I'm finally free of all that bullshit you are talkin' about.

 

(hug)

[Voice]

A noble effort, MTYS, but we're not your proper audience. 

Your Emmaus road experience would receive cheer and applause at evangelist gatherings. They need you there. 

[Thought2Much]

I know that snark, spite, mockery, and venom await those foolish enough to come here to carelessly spar or rub salt in raw wounds...

 

I read the first paragraph of your post first, since it was the first one in the post. I read all of the sentences in that paragraph, but I wasn't terribly intrigued. I thought maybe things would start to improve in the second paragraph, and that things that hadn't yet been said in the first paragraph would be said in the second paragraph.

 

So I started reading the second paragraph in your post, right after I was done reading the first paragraph, since that would make it he next paragraph in the post. It didn't seem like it would make sense to skip to the third paragraph without reading the second one, and I'd already read the first one, so it didn't make sense to read it again, so I did indeed read the second paragraph after I had finished reading the first paragraph, and before starting on the third paragraph.

 

I started reading the third paragraph of your post right after I finished the second paragraph. Then, I realized that there were more paragraphs after that. As I kept scrolling, I realized there were many, many more paragraphs after that third paragraph. I never did finish reading the third paragraph, because after doing all of that scrolling to see how many paragraphs there might be, I began to feel tired just thinking about the idea of reading that many more paragraphs, especially if they weren't any better than the first two paragraphs I finished reading, or the third paragraph, which I didn't finish, because I got tired.

 

Thank you for joining us. I hope you type a lot more paragraphs that I probably won't read.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Welcome to the forums.  You may well find that WE are More Than You See, if the perceptions outlined in your post are any indication.  Enjoy your stay.

[Jeff]

You have the secret recipe. Congrats. You're very special and will rule and reign eternally.

[LogicalFallacy]

At first I thought you might be my father, sounded a bit like him, but then you veered off and and I also noticed "God the father the son and the holy spirit" in your profile. Catholic I'm guessing?

 

You aren't concerned by "apparent" contradictions and believe the Bible is inerrant. Ok, you stick to your belief. I suggest you read the Bible carefully, with a critical mind, comparing passages. You'll find contradictions, unfulfilled prophesies, prophesies taken out of context and shoehorned into making Jesus the messiah... etc etc etc. Who said read Dr Price?... well whoever said it, that's a great place to start.

 

However all the evidence in the world may not convince you, possibly you are one of the extremes that happen in both directions. On one hand we have "I believe in God... the CHRISTIAN God no matter what... even if the Bible is proven wrong" At the other end you have "I will NOT believe in God no matter if he revealed himself to the world." It is pointless talking to those in either position as their mind is already made up.

 

You never addressed those who left Christianity because of their search for the truth, and the more they searched the more they found that their once held dear beliefs were built on the quicksand of faith and misinformation. You speak of those who left because of pain caused by religion, but you didn't speak of those who literally found their souls ripped out as they realized they could no longer believe in God because of the weight of evidence against God.

 

You invite us back to Christianity - please help.. which denomination or sect please? The Catholics think they are the only ones going to Heaven, the Protestants think the Catholics are the false Christ, the Baptist... well I think everyone except them is going to hell yeah? So its really important to choose the right sect of Christianity.

 

"Furthermore, If we begin to understand that because, as a result of our choosing to disobey one simple rule, God would come to understand how it felt to experience the death of His Child, then we might begin to understand why it is that we, too, would have to experience the death of children."

 

Do you realize how asinine this sounds to us here? How morally bankrupt? OUR!!? WE didn't do anything, ADAM and EVE did. We, according to you, are paying for their error. And God losing his 'child'? God essentially killed himself then raised himself up. And you dare to try and compare that to a mother watching her child starve, to a mother forced to eat her own child to survive, to the parents who watch their children die in horrific circumstances every minute, who bury their children and never see them again? "How dare you!", to quote Christopher Hitchens.

[readyforchange]

...

But then, in spite of my respect for valid science and rational thought, I have personally witnessed the use of actual "magic," the presence of demons, and the intervention of at least one angel that saved my life--or at the very least, kept me from great harm. You may disbelieve, but I cannot convince you with reason of what I have experienced firsthand. I wish I could. I'm not here to get anything from you, so you have to decide what I gain by saying such things and whether I'm to be trusted. But I'm making the claim, so I need to offer proof. Well, I can't offer anything but my testimony, such as it is. I don't have pictures or videos, and if I did you wouldn't believe them.

...

We are living in the church age, and God has chosen to work through us followers, aided by His Spirit. If you are not seeing God at work in the world today, I submit for your consideration that it is our fault rather than His.

...

I am nobody special. I had an Emmaus road experience. I thought I knew Christianity and Christ, until He met me on that road and showed me how He appeared throughout the Scriptures. Why me? I have no idea. I can only say we are not all the same parts with the exact same gifts.

...

MoreThanYouSee, in the quote above, I have selected portions of your post that are related to direct supernatural events that you say happened to you, along with what you mention is the church age today (long post, so I may have missed something).

 

You say that you are nobody special, but if you have had a direct Emmaus road experience where Jesus appeared to you in the flesh and showed you how He appeared throughout the scriptures, that certainly makes you special, doesn't it? One thing I cannot understand is why does everyone not get the same Emmaus road experience you say that you got, or get a doubting Thomas experience, where Jesus shows up and appears direct, in the flesh, and has a conversation with you? In John 20:29, Jesus tells Thomas that Thomas believed because he saw him, but blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe. But that does not change the fact that Jesus still personally appeared to Thomas. Thomas apparently was with Jesus day-in and day-out, saw Jesus perform miracles, heard reports directly from the other disciples about Jesus being resurrected, yet he still doubted. So if Thomas questioned the resurrection but got a direct, in the flesh appearance from Jesus, how is it that people living 2,000 years later have to take it all on faith? I know you say you wish you could provide proof beyond your testimony. But it seems that if you were to pray that all ex-Christians also get an Emmaus road experience from Jesus like you, that would be much more effective (like a thousand times more) than for flawed, imperfect followers to be ineffective at showing God at work (invisibly) in the world today?

[older]

Thanks for posting your 4134-word, 25 paragraph essay.

 

I have a question for you: Christians claim that their god is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent; he loves us all, and  everything happens according to his plan.

 

So please take a good long look at the photos below and explain how his intentionally doing this to these children shows his love for them. (And when you're done with these, let me know how many more you would like to see. I'd be glad to post 100 more, or 1000 more, or any amount you might want.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(The first three are by Paul Fusco, and are the result of the nuclear accident at Chernobyl. The last is by Kevin Carter. He committed suicide because this and many other similar scenes haunted him.)

[Shinzon]

Summery of overworded op:

If you dont like how the book souds just make it up, its still true.

 

My reply: bullshit. Quit decieving yourself. The book either says what it says or it dont.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 It also doesn't bother me if there are apparent contradictions in the Bible, as a good deal of tap dancing, as some put it, happens over trifling matters, which don't really affect most people living today. I'm not saying that all contradictions are trifling, but some are. And how would I un-convince you anyway of that which you're already firmly convinced is validation for your skepticism? I also don't care if certain days on the Christian calendar coincide with ancient pre-Christian holy days. And yet I do, however, believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and think that scientific understanding and biblical scholarship do and should agree, but when they do not, it is either because we're not correctly and fully understanding something God has said, or we're not understanding the data we're observing properly. 

 

 

 

Hello MoreThanYouSee.

 

I would like to put your claim (that biblical scholarship and scientific understanding should agree) to the test by pointing out that Genesis 1 : 1 contradicts cosmological science. 

 

As such the Bible cannot be inerrant and it's 'apparent' contradictions are not just trifling matters.

 

The whole of the Bible is built on a the falsehood of Genesis 1 :1.

 

The real problem lies with the fact that you are the one who doesn't understand the data.

 

So, do you understand how the Copernican Principle should be correctly applied to Inflationary theory, which is the mechanism of the Big Bang?

 

Please do tell.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[LogicalFallacy]

Summery of overworded op:

If you dont like how the book souds just make it up, its still true.

 

My reply: bullshit. Quit decieving yourself. The book either says what it says or it dont.

 

You, my dear sir, obviously don't have the revelation.

[LogicalFallacy]

At least I've given you something different from the same old pleas.

 

Errr, no sorry, have to correct you there, its pretty much the same old stuff. Pretty much heard it all before, sometimes in different wrapping, but its all the same underneath.

 

You do realize that the majority of us here are EX-CHRISTIAN.... name of the site and all? 

[Shinzon]

 

At least I've given you something different from the same old pleas.

 

 

Errr, no sorry, have to correct you there, its pretty much the same old stuff. Pretty much heard it all before, sometimes in different wrapping, but its all the same underneath.

 

You do realize that the majority of us here are EX-CHRISTIAN.... name of the site and all?

ditto. Everything he said reads like reworded carm and ray comfort apologetics.

 

On two points he made of slight substance,he is plain innaccurate. The raglan test shows to borrow from biblical verbage that yahweh would be indeed the author of confusion because he made his son so mythical and so similar to false heros and gods.

[Geezer]

People generally won't read more than a paragraph or two of any post, so you might consider that for future reference.

[dangitbobby83]

Besides the innumerable problems in the post, I'll focus on just a few.

 

- Open-minded:

 

- We're ex-christians here. We've traveled the road you've traveled and at one point sat down and decided to be open-minded enough to critically analyze our beliefs and worldview. Enough so that we found them wanting. 

 

You're "blah blah blah" about being hurt in church? That's only some of us. And for those in which that is true - the pain the church has done to us may have lead us out of the church, but we abandoned Christianity because many of us found it without evidence and reason. 

 

If anyone needs to be open-minded, it's you.

 

You are asking us to be open-minded to your poor-thought and same-ole apologetic, and I highly doubt you will give us the same respect.

 

- Conversion experience

 

- So Jesus came to you huh? Wow. What an asshole that Jesus is. I nearly begged him every day to show himself to help my dying beliefs and I received nary a whisper, nor even a tiny miracle. 

Sorry, but I don't believe you. You are either lying or you're delusional and need professional psychological help. People with normal functioning brains do not have experiences with a "god". It's called hallucination and can be a sign of all sorts of mental disorders. 

 

If you're not lying, which I suspect, I suggest you see a psychiatrist. 

 

As far as the rest of your tripe goes - typical apologetic bullshit. We've heard it before from many others before you, and many of us have said similar things in the past. Sorry to burst your self-importance bubble, but you haven't presented anything new. 

[LogicalFallacy]

dangitbobby83

 

So Jesus came to you huh? Wow. What an asshole that Jesus is. I nearly begged him every day to show himself to help my dying beliefs and I received nary a whisper, nor even a tiny miracle.

ditto ditto ditto