Are Trump Supporters Similar To Christians

[florduh]

DeVos wants to do for schools what Republicans have done for prisons – go private, get profit.

DeVos’s fanatical quest to create a for-profit school system might be based in part in her desire to expose children to Christianity and avoid court-mandated science in the classroom. Private schools do not need to adhere to the same scientific standards that public ones do. Her own children, for example, do not attend public schools. They go to Christian private schools. Teaching things like climate change and the theory of evolution are not required.

 

This isn't about fixing anything. It's about privatization in schools like we have in prisons, and that's not been such a good idea. It's also about the Christian agenda to teach our kids nothing that might conflict with the extremist Christian interpretation of the Bible.

[Bhim]

Woah, things have gotten a bit heated in here! In the interest of maintaining the standard of respectful disagreement that Castiel suggests, I'd like to observe that Europeans aren't exactly a disinterested third party in all this. Being non-Americans means that Europeans aren't entitled to a vote on our affairs of state. It doesn't mean that they aren't entitled to an opinion. Given our economic interdependence with Europe, ex. the financial markets, they have a reason to be concerned with what our government does, just as we have some stake in the European Union. I don't know about everyone else, but my 401(k) took a small hit after the Brexit vote. I support the Brexit decision - again because of the problem of mainstream Islam - but British peoples' votes affected me. Likewise, I'm sure the election of Donald Trump will have some effect on Europe as well.

 

And really, non-Americans like Castiel are the one's who should disapprove of the election of Trump. Donald Trump has promised us that his philosophy of governance will be one that puts American interests first. I take that to mean that American financial health will take precedence over people dying in the Middle East. Building a border wall will be a higher priority than sending foreign aid to impoverished nations. Economic and military decisions will be made which benefit the United States, even if it is at the cost of Britain. By all rights, I should be the one supporting Trump because I live in the United States, and Castiel, Rjn, and other non-Americans should be opposing him because they live outside of our borders.

[rjn]

Bhim: I'm not exactly opposed to Trump, nor am I supporting him. Between him and Hillary though, I'm of the opinion that he's the lesser risk geopolitically, so on the contrary, I think the rest of the World will benefit, if Trump's hints at isolationism are anything to go by. We're not exactly stoked about America's tendency to play World Police around here. I hope I am right at least, but of course, Trump might as well do a complete u-turn and become a warmongering hawk (he's consistently inconsistent, so it wouldn't really surprise me!) after all. Boy are we fucked then! 

[Bhim]

Bhim: I'm not exactly opposed to Trump, nor am I supporting him. Between him and Hillary though, I'm of the opinion that he's the lesser risk geopolitically, so on the contrary, I think the rest of the World will benefit, if Trump's hints at isolationism are anything to go by. We're not exactly stoked about America's tendency to play World Police around here. I hope I am right at least, but of course, Trump might as well do a complete u-turn and become a warmongering hawk (he's consistently inconsistent, so it wouldn't really surprise me!) after all. Boy are we fucked then! 

 

A lot of us here in the US don't much care for American military interventionism either, especially as it pertains to actions in Islamic nations. Speaking for myself here:

 

a.) I value Muslim lives about as much as they value their own lives, i.e. not at all.

b.) Since we're not stealing oil from Muslims (as Trump suggests), there's no financial benefit to us.

c.) Intervening in the affairs of Muslims causes them to hate us, much as a wild animal would be angered by being constantly goaded.

d.) Last, but certainly not least, American policy towards the Middle East results in the loss of American soldiers. These are sometimes people that I live and work with.

 

In principle I am not opposed to the concept of nation building. After the Second World War, the Marshall Plan and the MacArthur Constitution turned our enemies into some of our strongest allies. But Europeans and Japanese have cultures that value human life and dignity. I'm sorry to be so brutally honest about my position on Islam, but the recent behavior of Muslims in both the Middle East and in American refugee communities has convinced me that Islamic culture is not one that respects civilized life. I think that at some level these people want to live the lifestyle Islamic State is enforcing on Syrians and Iraqis, and I do believe that there's an extent to which peace with the Muslim world can only be achieved through separation. Were we to simply remove ourselves from the Middle East, these people would either kill each other or experience a cultural revolution resulting in a more civilized society. I don't really care which of those happens, but in the mean time a policy of military isolation from the Middle East would alleviate each of my above four concerns, and would probably result in better oil prices from Saudi Arabia!

[florduh]

Secular people can do the same thing.  Instead of bitching, they can get off their ass and do something.  Start a school of their own.

 

Is it a comprehension problem or simple denial? There's some reason you can't see the problem with this totally unqualified, inexperienced, science denying Christ-bot assuming control of our educational system.

[LogicalFallacy]

Bhim: I'm not exactly opposed to Trump, nor am I supporting him. Between him and Hillary though, I'm of the opinion that he's the lesser risk geopolitically, so on the contrary, I think the rest of the World will benefit, if Trump's hints at isolationism are anything to go by. We're not exactly stoked about America's tendency to play World Police around here. I hope I am right at least, but of course, Trump might as well do a complete u-turn and become a warmongering hawk (he's consistently inconsistent, so it wouldn't really surprise me!) after all. Boy are we fucked then!

I hold rjn's view here. I have stated many times that either choice (Hillary/Trump) was flipping atrocious, but it at least appeared that Trump was less willing to get into fisticuffs with Russia than Hillary. Hillary wanted to implement a no fly Zone over Syria.... which meant either forcing Russia to accept it, or enforce the NFZ by shooting down Russian planes. Trump wants to be friends with Putin.

 

Now I'm not saying Trumps a saint either. He's been backtracking a lot lately. We can only hope that he doesn't backtrack on his "lets be friends with Russia" policy.

 

Holy shit how did the US came down to those two? Seriously voters, think of the rest of humanity. We don't want to be nuked. Thank you! Rant over.

[Bhim]

I hold rjn's view here. I have stated many times that either choice (Hillary/Trump) was flipping atrocious, but it at least appeared that Trump was less willing to get into fisticuffs with Russia than Hillary. Hillary wanted to implement a no fly Zone over Syria.... which meant either forcing Russia to accept it, or enforce the NFZ by shooting down Russian planes. Trump wants to be friends with Putin.

 

Now I'm not saying Trumps a saint either. He's been backtracking a lot lately. We can only hope that he doesn't backtrack on his "lets be friends with Russia" policy.

 

Holy shit how did the US came down to those two? Seriously voters, think of the rest of humanity. We don't want to be nuked. Thank you! Rant over.

It surprises me too. If only there were a more level-headed candidate who believed that Islam - mainstream Islam, and not just its "radical" brother - is not fit for existence within American borders. I realize that only a billionaire, being unconstrained by threats of termination by an employer, is capable of saying such politically incorrect things in public. But did it have to be Trump? I don't for an instant regret voting for him, but I must say that I don't like his style or even him as a person. I've never been interested in his weird business ventures or in his public Twitter duels with various individuals. It's too bad we couldn't have someone like Peter Thiel run for office. Since Thiel is gay, that choice would have been particularly effective at sending a strong message that Muslims are an isolated community whose interests do not align with other minority groups.

[rjn]

 

Bhim: I'm not exactly opposed to Trump, nor am I supporting him. Between him and Hillary though, I'm of the opinion that he's the lesser risk geopolitically, so on the contrary, I think the rest of the World will benefit, if Trump's hints at isolationism are anything to go by. We're not exactly stoked about America's tendency to play World Police around here. I hope I am right at least, but of course, Trump might as well do a complete u-turn and become a warmongering hawk (he's consistently inconsistent, so it wouldn't really surprise me!) after all. Boy are we fucked then! 

 

A lot of us here in the US don't much care for American military interventionism either, especially as it pertains to actions in Islamic nations. Speaking for myself here:

 

a.) I value Muslim lives about as much as they value their own lives, i.e. not at all.

b.) Since we're not stealing oil from Muslims (as Trump suggests), there's no financial benefit to us.

c.) Intervening in the affairs of Muslims causes them to hate us, much as a wild animal would be angered by being constantly goaded.

d.) Last, but certainly not least, American policy towards the Middle East results in the loss of American soldiers. These are sometimes people that I live and work with.

 

In principle I am not opposed to the concept of nation building. After the Second World War, the Marshall Plan and the MacArthur Constitution turned our enemies into some of our strongest allies. But Europeans and Japanese have cultures that value human life and dignity. I'm sorry to be so brutally honest about my position on Islam, but the recent behavior of Muslims in both the Middle East and in American refugee communities has convinced me that Islamic culture is not one that respects civilized life. I think that at some level these people want to live the lifestyle Islamic State is enforcing on Syrians and Iraqis, and I do believe that there's an extent to which peace with the Muslim world can only be achieved through separation. Were we to simply remove ourselves from the Middle East, these people would either kill each other or experience a cultural revolution resulting in a more civilized society. I don't really care which of those happens, but in the mean time a policy of military isolation from the Middle East would alleviate each of my above four concerns, and would probably result in better oil prices from Saudi Arabia!

 

 

I'm well aware of your anti-Muslim stance, and while I can partly understand it, I think you're being too categorical and black-and-white. Especially regarding Syria, which contrary to what the current narrative in the media would have you believe, is - or at least was - the most secular country in the Middle East. Islamism wasn't a factor 50 years ago. The Muslim Brotherhood was outlawed in many secular Arab Republics (Ba'athist Syria and Iraq, Nasser's Egypt) and the Arab World was taking huge steps towards modernisation. However, since there was a strong streak of socialism in Ba'athism (the state ideology of Iraq and Syria) and the Pan-Arab movement at large, these countries would often align with the East Bloc. The US responded by funding Islamist groups, and looking the other way while their regional partners, the Saudis, exported Wahhabism to the entire Muslim World and beyond, bolstered by immense amounts of oil money. Then there's the Deobandi school, from your own country of origin no less, that eventually gave rise to the Taliban movement. Naturally, those movements gained traction when those countries were bombed to cinders as a consequence of US foreign policy.

 

Think what you will of Islam - I'm hardly a big fan of that ideology myself - but it isn't as simple as non-Muslim vs Muslim. 

[♦ ficino ♦]

 the recent behavior of Muslims in both the Middle East and in American refugee communities has convinced me that Islamic culture is not one that respects civilized life. 

 

I don't know much about American refugee communities. Bhim, can you expand on what Muslims in American refugee communities have done? In the last couple of years I've been seeing women in complete veils w/ only eyes showing and several children in tow, but I don't know whether they are refugees or what country they're from. Around here, the religious extremists more on the radar screen are Hasidic Jews.

[Bhim]

I don't know much about American refugee communities. Bhim, can you expand on what Muslims in American refugee communities have done? In the last couple of years I've been seeing women in complete veils w/ only eyes showing and several children in tow, but I don't know whether they are refugees or what country they're from. Around here, the religious extremists more on the radar screen are Hasidic Jews.

I'd be happy to, F. As I've mentioned previously, in the past I've spent a lot of time in Minnesota due to various reasons such as having family there, working with collaborators, and during my Christian days being an acolyte of John Piper. The church where Piper used to preach is across the highway from one of the largest Somali communities in United States. Somalis were resettled in Minnesota in the 90s due to wars in Somalia, and having been a witness to the fruits of this process, I must say I'm not impressed. In principle I'm certainly not opposed to immigration; I'm here because my parents emigrated from India. But it's been my observation that Somalis - specifically due to their bulk adherence to Islam - are singularly unable and unwilling to assimilate into a Western secular democracy. These people are politically active as well, and on various occasions try to impose Islam on others at both the macroscopic and microscopic level. I have relatives whose high schools had no short supply of battles because Somalis tried to set up prayer rooms on school grounds. Sound similar to battles we're used to having with Christians?. Once when I was in this state and tried to buy 3.2 alcohol from a Target (don't judge, it was for an office party with some collaborators and Minnesota closes liquor stores on Sunday), a Somali person actually refused to sell it to me on the grounds that Islam forbids alcohol use! Add to this that I've personally witnessed Somalis yelling at Western women to cover up, and you can see where my anti-Islamic bias comes from. And like many others here, I've studied Islam and found that my bias is based in fact.

 

But anecdotes alone probably shouldn't sway you. I've been following a story from Minnesota of 9 Somali youth who were arrested by the FBI for attempting to join Islamic State. First of all, the fact that Somalis would commit treason against a country that saved their parents from a war-ravaged, failed state should suggest that there is an anti-assimilation element in this community. But what's more interesting is that one individual in particular was sentenced very lightly because, at the insistence of his mother, he testified against his co-conspirators. This woman was harassed by the others in the Somali community for cooperating with the FBI. So this confirms my claim that there is indeed an element of anti-Americanism within the Minnesota Somali community.

 

Now, is it possible that these things happened to to an aberrant subgroup within the Somali community in Minnesota? Sure it is. And since it's been awhile since I've been to that state, maybe things have changed for the better. But why do we choose to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt? Presumption of innocence is reserved for criminal trials. When making an immigration decision, it is the prospective immigrant's job to show that he is a good fit for the culture, that he will contribute to society rather than burdening it, and that his culture is compatible with ours. Bear in mind that I voted an orangutan into the Oval Office precisely because he will make decisions with America's best interests in mind vis-à-vis Muslim immigration.

 

So I would ask the following. Do we want to live in a society filled with people who yell at women to cover up? Who try to prevent people from purchasing alcohol? Who hate the country that saved them from war to such an extent that they'll fly overseas to engage in a futile war against said country? I've never witnessed Somalis expressing dislike for gays or people from non-Abrahamic religions, but I'd remind you F that you and I are on the Muslim hit list too. Somalis were not worth bringing here, and I doubt that Syrians will be either. If there is any serious suspicion that they will hate us despite our generosity, I think it's better to leave them in their barbarian culture and let them kill each other instead of killing us.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Thank you for your reply, Bhim. My experiences in NY and NJ don't include contact with situations such as what you describe in Minnesota. I am not aware of having been among such homogeneous communities of Muslims. There are a lot of Hindus and Muslims from the Indian subcontinent in the part of NJ not far from where I was, as you may know. There are a lot of Bangladeshis in, say, Astoria, and Arabs in parts of Brooklyn. I don't know of problems they've had or caused, but I'm pretty out of it.

 

As you suggest, my principal fear is of consistent conservative Christians in the US.

 

Anyway, you've given me food for thought. My Greek friends tend to be freaked out by the numbers of Syrian refugees, esp. hale and hearty young men, who have flooded their country in the last year.

 

I could never vote for Trump, though. Heh heh.

[rjn]

 

 

When making an immigration decision, it is the prospective immigrant's job to show that he is a good fit for the culture, that he will contribute to society rather than burdening it, and that his culture is compatible with ours.

 

That will never happen in a World with a liberal "everything is equal" mindset. It implies there are significant differences between people and different cultures, and that's tantamount to Nazism in the eyes of many. Personally, I agree that this is would be something good, but each individual case would have to be tried, and that'd would require a lot of resources. 

 

 

Somalis were not worth bringing here, and I doubt that Syrians will be either. If there is any serious suspicion that they will hate us despite our generosity, I think it's better to leave them in their barbarian culture and let them kill each other instead of killing us.

 

Somalis and Syrians live on two different continents, are not closely related at all (both speak Afro-Asiatic languages, but the gap between Semitic languages like Arabic and Syriac/Aramaic and Cushitic languages like Somali is bigger than the gap between Indo-European tongues like English and Hindi) and are quite simply put very different. Many Syrians are Christian, belong to "heretical" sects of Islam (Druze, Alawite) or are fairly secular, whereas Somalia is partly theocratic.

[Vigile]

Holy shit how did the US came down to those two? Seriously voters, think of the rest of humanity. We don't want to be nuked. Thank you! Rant over. 

 

Those were the two our corporate/insider controlled primary process foisted upon us. A handful of people actually support them. Everyone else had to pick the one that scared them the most and vote against that. 

[♦ ficino ♦]

Vigile, I agree that the primary process is insider controlled, esp. in the "caucuses." In the outcome of Trump, though, I'm not seeing that outcome as what corporate interests particularly wanted. I thought they started out favoring "Jeb!"

[Vigile]

Vigile, I agree that the primary process is insider controlled, esp. in the "caucuses." In the outcome of Trump, though, I'm not seeing that outcome as what corporate interests particularly wanted. I thought they started out favoring "Jeb!"

 

Yeah, ironically, the GOP primary appears to have been more fair this time than the DNC, but there is pretty clear evidence the press gave him a leg up early on, and wikileaks shows that this was a DNC strategy in order to give themselves a strawman candidate (that one backfired). It was pretty clear the people wanted Bernie and the insiders wanted Clinton and that's what they got. 

 

I suspect that if the GOP had someone as politically savvy and as morally stunted as the Clintons, Trump wouldn't have made it through the gauntlet either. 

 

All this said, party infrastructure, including the press, local political machines, which help with turnout, etc... ensure that the people are forced to choose between the two major parties and outsiders whom might have more popular support given an even playing field are locked out of the process. There was a great documentary a few years ago that shows just how impossible it is for anyone outside the political machinery to get past the barriers at the local levels in order to make it to the national levels (where there is a whole new set of barriers):

 

[Fweethawt]

[Fweethawt]

[Castiel233]

Edit

[Fweethawt]

[rjn]

 

"Officer Dominick Izzo is a 16 year veteran police officer, public servant and Warrior for Christ."

[Vigile]

 

I stopped listening when he started talking about how the older generation worked hard and built their own wealth. That's nice and all, but the younger generation doesn't have the jobs or job security available to them that their parents had. I too think it's stupid to protest election results, but it makes perfect sense to protest a system that has systematically sent their jobs overseas because its leaders have taken payouts from corporations. 

[Fweethawt]

"Officer Dominick Izzo is a 16 year veteran police officer, public servant and Warrior for Christ."

At least he's not a Warrior for Muhammed."

[Sybaris]

 

To the worshippers of Christ and Trump, denial, shutting down of humanity and reason and plain insults for an opposing view seem to be somewhat of an hall mark 

 

Maybe both sides are guilty to an extent but for some reason it just seems to be more visible from a segment of his supporters:

 

Illegal voters

[Castiel233]

Mods, please lock this thread. I think it has run its course

[buffettphan]

Locked at the OP's request.