Where Is God In All This?

[R. S. Martin]

So there's a song going through my head and even though I've been an atheist for ten years  the only songs I  know are Christian so it's a hymn: Hold to God's unchanging hand, Cling to him who will not leave you whatsoever life may bring...

 

At the same time I'm reading a news article, looking at a photo of Iraqis waiting at the side of the road for a ride to a displacement camp. Quite obviously they are believers; the one woman is dressed head to toe in black with only a slit to see through, so I can't see her face. But others beside her don't look at all like they're having the time of their life. After all, their highest hope for this life is to be driven by open truck to a refugee camp--those places of horror from which we in North America rescue people. 

 

Cling to him who will not leave you whatsoever life may bring...

 

I become aware of the music inside my head, the promise of the words sung in happy hopeful times. Family times, social times, with self and loved ones safely and securely sheltered inside solid houses full of food and clothes, with bank accounts full of money to buy more. And police whom we can call on to serve and protect. In those times when it took more than one crop failure, more than one break-in, to devastate us, it made sense to sing: Cling to him who will not leave you whatsoever life may bring.

 

But these people sitting on the side of the road with all their earthly possessions in two handbags, having nothing to hope for but a ride to a refugee camps...The incongruity hit me.

 

Is this the blessed life promised to Abraham and his seed forever??? A sign of God's presence? Did not God leave them the minute their government failed to serve and protect?

 

If they survive, I am sure some of them will give credit to their faith, to Allah but still...

 

[LogicalFallacy]

That song still gets me. How ironic. "Trust in him who will not leave you, when earthly friends forsake you, hold to Gods unchanging hand."

 

Christians you do that, when disaster strikes see how much God actually helps you as opposed to other humans helping you. And to attribute humans helping you to God's good grace is an insult to common human decency. The idea that humans couldn't be good or caring for their fellow man is disgusting. And this line of thinking come from the same people or say the vast majority of humanity will burn in hell forever.

[R. S. Martin]

That song still gets me. How ironic. "Trust in him who will not leave you, when earthly friends forsake you, hold to Gods unchanging hand."

 

Christians you do that, when disaster strikes see how much God actually helps you as opposed to other humans helping you. And to attribute humans helping you to God's good grace is an insult to common human decency. The idea that humans couldn't be good or caring for their fellow man is disgusting. And this line of thinking come from the same people or say the vast majority of humanity will burn in hell forever.

 

I like what you're bringing out here--that even in such tragic situations when the government has failed and citizens depend on someone for a ride to a refugee camp, it's humans doing the best they can in dire situations for their fellow humans.

 

What's coming clear for me is that for many people it's just easier to attribute the big picture to God. That allows them to have their petty fights (or not-so-petty) with other humans and still thank some Greater Power for the good they can derive from life, be they great or small blessings.

 

Sitting at the side of the road, made newly homeless, I am sure it feels like a blessing to know there's a safe place to go to and someone to help you get there. It doesn't bear thinking that God has forsaken you, or possibly did not exist in the first place. I really don't know why.

 

Is it because it would mean accepting the goodness of those fellow humans you'd been having those petty arguments and disagreements with?  You could no longer write them off as simply being instruments of the Higher Power who loves you? *shrug* I don't understand. 

[qadeshet]

Seriously, learn some new songs. Imagine by John Lennon is my anthem.

 

John Lennon Lyrics

 

"Imagine"
 

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

[R. S. Martin]

Yep, I know that one more or less. Songs are not the point of this thread. The point is Christian theology (expressed in a familiar song) vs real life.

 

I haven't been around these forums too much lately so maybe I missed the point of the theology forums. Sorry if that's the case.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

That song still gets me. How ironic. "Trust in him who will not leave you, when earthly friends forsake you, hold to Gods unchanging hand."

 

Christians you do that, when disaster strikes see how much God actually helps you as opposed to other humans helping you. And to attribute humans helping you to God's good grace is an insult to common human decency. The idea that humans couldn't be good or caring for their fellow man is disgusting. And this line of thinking come from the same people or say the vast majority of humanity will burn in hell forever.

 

I like what you're bringing out here--that even in such tragic situations when the government has failed and citizens depend on someone for a ride to a refugee camp, it's humans doing the best they can in dire situations for their fellow humans.

 

What's coming clear for me is that for many people it's just easier to attribute the big picture to God. That allows them to have their petty fights (or not-so-petty) with other humans and still thank some Greater Power for the good they can derive from life, be they great or small blessings.

 

Sitting at the side of the road, made newly homeless, I am sure it feels like a blessing to know there's a safe place to go to and someone to help you get there. It doesn't bear thinking that God has forsaken you, or possibly did not exist in the first place. I really don't know why.

 

Is it because it would mean accepting the goodness of those fellow humans you'd been having those petty arguments and disagreements with?  You could no longer write them off as simply being instruments of the Higher Power who loves you? *shrug* I don't understand. 

 

R. S. Martin you understand the point of these forums just fine.

 

I think when one has a belief in an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God, then by default one has to attribute everything to him. Get your fingers cut off in a work accident? Its not oh God why? Its thank you Jesus that I didn't lose my whole arm!

 

And note in the song we mentioned the idea that one is alone in this big bad world with nothing but God. "When by earthly friends forsaken..., Trust in him who will not leave you," There is a disconnect between reality and this song. There are 2.2 billion Christians in the world. Most of them in fairly sizable churches and social community groups. The idea that its the poor little Christian against the world is a mental disconnect with reality. Because in reality Christians are a powerful majority in the world, with a lot of influence. Far from the idea of a persecuted chosen group of Gods children.

 

Here's another point: Jesus speaking: "As it was in the days of Noah where FEW were saved, so shall it be in the coming of the son of man" 2.2 billion out of 7 billion is NOT few!

 

Serious, serious disconnect here. Many smaller churches get around this disconnect by saying they, and only they are the true church, all others are false antichrists and therefore there are only few. Victim mentality is shown in this instance. I know, that's what my church was like. We, and only we, are Gods chosen few.

[R. S. Martin]

Good insights, Logical Fallacy. Good talking with someone who also knows that song and sees the incongruity between the Christian promise and real life. And yes, the bickering billions of Christians are not the persecuted minority they pretend. They stand together on the main points, while fighting tooth and nail on the others. You're right, that's why they think they're persecuted--because they deny the right to the Christian name to all but their own little group. But my group condemns you group and your group condemns my group. Reminds me of the Blind Men and the Elephant. Yet they close ranks against the unbeliever who will not repent.

 

I'm just rambling. 

[yunea]

Great thread, I enjoyed reading through it very much.

 

I too have been wondering about the songs and bible verses that are all "thank you god for all the great things/protection/love/etc you bring" and how it works in real life - or doesn't. It's very easy to be thankful when there's abundance of everything, and really mean it when saying stuff like "god really has made sure we've always been financially ok" (actual quote) but having had the perspective of a much poorer person in an unsafe home and seeing people praise god for their beautiful lives, I know very well it raises difficult questions. And the default answer is "god sees you and your family and has a plan". Right.

[LogicalFallacy]

This idea of God 'helping' the family in some way - financially, perhaps the bank gave a loan etc, is very troubling. It's troubling because while God was busy helping a family with a loan, which people get all the time with no help from God whatsoever, a 4 year old child (Innocent at this age, she can have done no wrong, that any supreme being could justifiably punish) dies of cancer, in agony, after suffering for months. Her family will be left heartbroken and shattered. Meanwhile a family praises God for finding the keys/carpark/lost child's toy

 

To quote Sam Harris "Given all this god of yours does not accomplish in the lives of others, given the misery that’s being imposed on some helpless child at this instant, this kind of faith is obscene. To think in this way is to fail to reason honestly, or to care sufficiently about the suffering of other human beings." 

 

You can read Sam Harris's entire excerpt of his view of the morality of God here: This is well worth the read. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Sam-Harris-The-Obscenity-of-Faith

 

Alternatively watch him. From 4:50 is the quoted portion: 

 

Back to songs:

 

"I was shackled by a heavy burden..." Who did the shackling??

 

"What a friend we have in Jesus" Really, can you see him, does he ever talk back? Can you physically touch him?

 

"Standing somewhere in the shadows you'll find Jesus" I have search the shadows, the valleys, the plains, and the mountain tops. Never found him, not even when I needed him most.

 

 

What about scripture not lining up with reality?:

 

"When you hear of wars and rumors of wars... there will be pestilence and famine, earthquakes in different places"

 

Please, name the century of human existence where at least one of these didn't happen? Not only can the Christian not name one, most if not all centuries had all of these occurring ALL THE TIME.

 

NZ has been rocked, as many will be aware, by earthquakes in the last two weeks, Japan also, and South America. Famine is occurring in many parts of the world, new diseases springing up all the time. If its not the plague, its Ebola. Wars... sadly seems to be a condition of human existence. The last two decade was probably the most peaceful its been for a while.... and think of how many wars there was. The scripture is ironic considering that much of the bible is one huge war story.

[yunea]

Thanks for the link LF - funnily there's an extra blank space at the end of the link that has to be removed. Must be the first time I see THAT messing up a link. Either way, it was a great read. 

 

It made me remember some old childrens' hymns - "there's room for everyone on God's palm" etc, or "protecting and guiding me through the dark night, He watches my step, I have a friend". 

[LogicalFallacy]

Hi Yunea, thanks for pointing that out - links can sometimes not work for the weirdest reasons. I have fixed. (Fingers crossed)

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks for all the additional points all of you have brought to bear on this topic. Great reading.

[LogicalFallacy]

1. What a friend we have in Jesus, 
all our sins and griefs to bear! 
What a privilege to carry 
everything to God in prayer! 
O what peace we often forfeit, 
O what needless pain we bear, 
all because we do not carry 
everything to God in prayer. 

 

I'm not sure about others here, but personally I prayed an awful lot during the times I started finding inconsistencies in the bible, and during my de-conversion stage. It was painful, but never once did I get an answer.

2. Have we trials and temptations? 
Is there trouble anywhere? 
We should never be discouraged; 
take it to the Lord in prayer. 
Can we find a friend so faithful 
who will all our sorrows share? 
Jesus knows our every weakness; 
take it to the Lord in prayer. 

 

I didn't have any real human friends to share with - they were all Christians and followed typical Christian lockdown procedure when faced with questions. Again, praying to Jesus resulted in a big empty nothing.

3. Are we weak and heavy laden, 
cumbered with a load of care? 
Precious Savior, still our refuge; 
take it to the Lord in prayer. 
Do thy friends despise, forsake thee? 
Take it to the Lord in prayer! 
In his arms he'll take and shield thee; 
thou wilt find a solace there. 

 

Again talking of a friend who isn't really there.

 

I remember the days this song used to mean something, and I'd find comfort in it. Only to find out its all hollow promises built on the story telling of ancient peoples, and a few leaders who gained positions of influence.

[LogicalFallacy]

Song line: "When my Jesus saved me, washed my sins away, cast them in the bottom of the sea"

 

Please, explain with justification, why I needed saving, and what happens if I don't believe he washed my sins away?

 

Christian answer: Well Adam and Eve did a naughty, thus causing every innocent baby born to be in sin, thus you were judged and need saving. If you don't believe you burn in hell forever.

 

Me: Ah, then I wasn't saved was I? - salvation is not a gift, its a condition. See if I washed my friends car, its washed regardless of whether they believe I washed it or not. It was a free gift from me, and the evidence is a sparkly car. I don't send my friend to hell for not believing I washed his car. Bit of a difference yes?

[LifeCycle]

Great thread! So many contradictions and outright lies instead of promises. And then there's the whole God will not give you more than you can handle BS which I'm not sure is scriptural or not but there's a lot of dead Christians that didn't die due to old age. Maybe they weren't really Christian or Christian enough? 

[R. S. Martin]

1. What a friend we have in Jesus, 

all our sins and griefs to bear! 

What a privilege to carry 

everything to God in prayer! 

O what peace we often forfeit, 

O what needless pain we bear, 

all because we do not carry 

everything to God in prayer. 

 

I'm not sure about others here, but personally I prayed an awful lot during the times I started finding inconsistencies in the bible, and during my de-conversion stage. It was painful, but never once did I get an answer.

 

2. Have we trials and temptations? 

Is there trouble anywhere? 

We should never be discouraged; 

take it to the Lord in prayer. 

Can we find a friend so faithful 

who will all our sorrows share? 

Jesus knows our every weakness; 

take it to the Lord in prayer. 

 

I didn't have any real human friends to share with - they were all Christians and followed typical Christian lockdown procedure when faced with questions. Again, praying to Jesus resulted in a big empty nothing.

 

3. Are we weak and heavy laden, 

cumbered with a load of care? 

Precious Savior, still our refuge; 

take it to the Lord in prayer. 

Do thy friends despise, forsake thee? 

Take it to the Lord in prayer! 

In his arms he'll take and shield thee; 

thou wilt find a solace there. 

 

Again talking of a friend who isn't really there.

 

I remember the days this song used to mean something, and I'd find comfort in it. Only to find out its all hollow promises built on the story telling of ancient peoples, and a few leaders who gained positions of influence.

 

Great thread! So many contradictions and outright lies instead of promises. And then there's the whole God will not give you more than you can handle BS which I'm not sure is scriptural or not but there's a lot of dead Christians that didn't die due to old age. Maybe they weren't really Christian or Christian enough? 

 

YES! to both of you.

 

As some of you know, I made some pretty big changes in my life around the turn of the millennium in order to improve my situation. But I continued finding myself in difficult situations. One day, when waiting for a meeting with a professor or someone that I expected to be "more than I could bear," I was sitting on the grass outside the university praying. The thought came to me very clearly, like a thought from outside my brain, "It's wrong to pray." 

 

That's when I quit praying. I still considered myself a Christian because it was the only thing I knew and I hadn't totally given up to the point that I was willing to risk hell in deconverting. But I no longer prayed. When others prayed I bowed my head and pretended. The irony was deep and at times I pondered how one could identify as a Christian without praying but it was just one of those things. I could no longer pray.

 

When I told the people in my new church about having made the change on my own, that God had not helped me (I said this even though still going to church and considering myself a seeking Christian), others told me gently that maybe God had helped and I just didn't notice. I let it go. I knew they were wrong. God somehow failed to limit the bad things to our level of strength--I had done it on my own. I knew myself well enough to be absolutely sure of that. Why I still considered myself a Christian was not something I could have answered with the same assurance.

 

In looking back I know my hunch at the time was right. At the time it occurred to me that I needed a modern Mennonite Church community to carry me till I was well enough established in mainstream society to stand on my own. Their confession of faith was similar enough to that of my original church that it worked. I had lived for forty years using horse and buggy transportation and these people lived and dressed like mainstream society but believed the same when it came to the faith and things like Jesus, new birth, baptism, and salvation. They sang many of the songs in church that we used to sing in our socials. So for about three or four years I attended various modern churches till I felt comfortable just not going to church. 

 

When neither the modern Church nor the seminary (where I did my Masters of Theology) could answer my burning lifelong questions about how salvation really worked--stuff that is the logical conclusion of what the bible and sermons say but the sermons and bible don't touch it--I finally deconverted. I was walking through the bush on my way home from the last class of another course at the seminary and suddenly, like a thought from outside my brain, I knew that there is no god. 

 

I think that was in late July 2006. Soon thereafter I found these forums and by Christmas I was convinced that God really did not exist and considered myself an atheist. 

 

Does it ever feel good to tell the story. Again. 

 

I'm not sure what got me started...Oh now I know. This thing about Jesus being a friend and prayer solving problems and God not giving more than he will help carry. BULLSHIT!!!

[LifeCycle]

Hahaha, I totally get it. I got so frustrated with God ignoring me but "talking" to everyone else... Turns out, they were a bunch of liars and/or lunatics. The feeling that I always needed to get saved again and God quietly sitting on the sidelines watching... Never comforting me and confirming my salvation to me. I was always fearful I wasn't really saved. I felt like a horrible human being. Not worthy of love (father left me, dysfunctional family etc...) and I really needed to know. But nope, he didn't do shit. It all came to a head and spawned other questions about Hell and free will and belief and blah blah blah blah fucking blah. Then it turned into too much god damned work just to try and make sense of all of it. His burden is light? LOL Yeah right. Nothing about any of those promises in the bible add up. Nothing. It's all mumbo jumbo hocus pocus that when scrutinized with any level of sanity, just doesn't hold up. But like Florduh says, it does have that emotional hook that grabs many... Promises of an eternity without suffering and full of bliss can be extremely powerful.

 

But back to the topic... I saw so many Christians who I thought were better givers of their time and money than I was when I was a kid and yet they struggled with many issues. Christians like to say that God doesn't promise that it'll be easy and I'm like, "mother fucker, look right here at this promise and that promise and that promise and you all are still praying for healing and financial blessing and you have a pregnant teenager." Christians lead no discernibly different lives than heathens as far as who has it better. With that said, and with the promises that prayers will be answered and you have not because you ask not and all that... You have to conclude that God majors in over-promising and under-delivering.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Believers are taught quickly that they must make positive excuses for each failure of god to keep promises, or re-define the promises as having conditions such as only applying to the apostles, a limited-time offer, and so on. At Thanksgiving I had to sit quietly while some believing family members did a Bible reading about the faithfulness of god and his promises. I kept reminding myself of his many failures to keep promises, and how believers are taught to say "He has a better plan, just trust him."  So, what's the better plan? He won't tell you, even though you are supposed to be indwelled by him. He won't talk to you unless it is to remind you not to sin. But why would I trust him when he failed to deliver on his promise? If I make a promise, I don't get to change the promise and redefine shit as gold. Believers will excuse a total silence and resulting catastrophe as god's will that is somehow better than what we needed or asked for. "How do you know that this isn't ultimately better for you? Can't question God, ya know." Yeah, we can.

 

My hope is that the kids will encounter enough to make them ask serious questions instead of regurgitating pre-fab answers. They are brilliant kids, and have already memorized a LOT of arguments from the creationist standpoint. But I hope to be an influence on them in the years to come.

[R. S. Martin]

Hahaha, I totally get it. I got so frustrated with God ignoring me but "talking" to everyone else... Turns out, they were a bunch of liars and/or lunatics. The feeling that I always needed to get saved again and God quietly sitting on the sidelines watching... Never comforting me and confirming my salvation to me. I was always fearful I wasn't really saved. I felt like a horrible human being. Not worthy of love (father left me, dysfunctional family etc...) and I really needed to know. But nope, he didn't do shit. It all came to a head and spawned other questions about Hell and free will and belief and blah blah blah blah fucking blah. Then it turned into too much god damned work just to try and make sense of all of it. His burden is light? LOL Yeah right. Nothing about any of those promises in the bible add up. Nothing. It's all mumbo jumbo hocus pocus that when scrutinized with any level of sanity, just doesn't hold up. But like Florduh says, it does have that emotional hook that grabs many... Promises of an eternity without suffering and full of bliss can be extremely powerful.

 

But back to the topic... I saw so many Christians who I thought were better givers of their time and money than I was when I was a kid and yet they struggled with many issues. Christians like to say that God doesn't promise that it'll be easy and I'm like, "mother fucker, look right here at this promise and that promise and that promise and you all are still praying for healing and financial blessing and you have a pregnant teenager." Christians lead no discernibly different lives than heathens as far as who has it better. With that said, and with the promises that prayers will be answered and you have not because you ask not and all that... You have to conclude that God majors in over-promising and under-delivering.

 

How I love that someone else looked at the promises exactly the way I did--and expected them to deliver, then held God and Christians accountable for lies and broken promises. I love that I'm not the only one. 

 

A man my age, now in the ministry, told me we are not promised happiness. He said it in a letter. I had already left the church, in a depression so deep it nearly cost my life and he said that. I did not respond. How, I wondered, had he missed all those promises regarding joy in the Lord, peace of God, "blessed are..." in the Beatitudes, etc. Then there are all the admonitions to feeling thankful, which thankful feelings automatically translate into feeling happy. I knew beyond a doubt that in this life I had a right to expect happiness or inner peace and I was going to pursue it at all costs.

 

Now I suppose some people think happiness equals getting drunk or getting laid or getting high. He could have asked me to define happiness instead of saying I had no right to it. Cripes!

[LifeCycle]

 

Hahaha, I totally get it. I got so frustrated with God ignoring me but "talking" to everyone else... Turns out, they were a bunch of liars and/or lunatics. The feeling that I always needed to get saved again and God quietly sitting on the sidelines watching... Never comforting me and confirming my salvation to me. I was always fearful I wasn't really saved. I felt like a horrible human being. Not worthy of love (father left me, dysfunctional family etc...) and I really needed to know. But nope, he didn't do shit. It all came to a head and spawned other questions about Hell and free will and belief and blah blah blah blah fucking blah. Then it turned into too much god damned work just to try and make sense of all of it. His burden is light? LOL Yeah right. Nothing about any of those promises in the bible add up. Nothing. It's all mumbo jumbo hocus pocus that when scrutinized with any level of sanity, just doesn't hold up. But like Florduh says, it does have that emotional hook that grabs many... Promises of an eternity without suffering and full of bliss can be extremely powerful.

 

But back to the topic... I saw so many Christians who I thought were better givers of their time and money than I was when I was a kid and yet they struggled with many issues. Christians like to say that God doesn't promise that it'll be easy and I'm like, "mother fucker, look right here at this promise and that promise and that promise and you all are still praying for healing and financial blessing and you have a pregnant teenager." Christians lead no discernibly different lives than heathens as far as who has it better. With that said, and with the promises that prayers will be answered and you have not because you ask not and all that... You have to conclude that God majors in over-promising and under-delivering.

 

How I love that someone else looked at the promises exactly the way I did--and expected them to deliver, then held God and Christians accountable for lies and broken promises. I love that I'm not the only one. 

 

A man my age, now in the ministry, told me we are not promised happiness. He said it in a letter. I had already left the church, in a depression so deep it nearly cost my life and he said that. I did not respond. How, I wondered, had he missed all those promises regarding joy in the Lord, peace of God, "blessed are..." in the Beatitudes, etc. Then there are all the admonitions to feeling thankful, which thankful feelings automatically translate into feeling happy. I knew beyond a doubt that in this life I had a right to expect happiness or inner peace and I was going to pursue it at all costs.

 

Now I suppose some people think happiness equals getting drunk or getting laid or getting high. He could have asked me to define happiness instead of saying I had no right to it. Cripes!

 

They bend the bible almost over on itself to fit any situation but those promises are still there. Where two gather in my name etc etc etc... Hell, lots of people have done that and got nothing out of it. At what point can we say it's bullshit and call God a liar? If you ask for happiness and don't get it, what's the deal with, "You have not because you ask not?" I get so tired of the dancing around the black and white on those pages. Does it say it or not? Jesus himself said we would do greater things than he did. Anyone raise someone from the dead yet? John 14:12 

 

I'm sorry you hit rock bottom. Reminds me of a song...  "The Black Sheep & The Shepherd" by Quiet Company... "Because the only times I thought of suicide, I was waiting on the lord to direct my life, saying give me one word and I'll put down the knife and never pick it up again." 

 

Religion is truly destructive to our well-being. No question. Glad you escaped. Keep strong.

[LogicalFallacy]

One of the things I guess that led to my questioning was that, essentially, the pastor has been harping on and on about the same things for 25+ years.

 

Things like the world is ending, Armageddon is coming, society is going backwards, the world is falling apart, people have no hope, democracy is failing (Bush appointed by court) democracy fails again (Obama is a Muslim) and democracy is STILL failing - people protesting trump who is actually good.... *Face slap*

 

I looked around me:

- my 'wordly' work mates didn't seem to have no hope, and they certainly aren't drug and alcohol riddled losers

- Statistics show crime in many places is going down

- Statistics also show that on the whole societal health is increasing... step by painful step

- democracy is working fine, people just need to get over the fact their 'god' didn't win

 

 

I also looked at the Bible. The word "soon" and "quickly" in the new testament is used in conjunction with the second coming of Jesus many times.

 

"Behold I come quickly", "Soon these things must come to pass".

 

In addition the entire New Testament is predicated on the second coming of Jesus appearing in the writers lifetimes - sound familiar? The excuse in my church was "If God actually told them he wasn't going to come for 2000 years they would lose faith"

 

NO SHIT! So you are saying God is a deceptive [bleep bleep] then? ...... silence.....

 

Everything is explained away I find, often using the Bible, but you can argue against their explanation USING the bible.

[deno]

I'm finding more and more that we all were exposed to basically the same indoctrination only in different flavors. There are several things I began to question that started opening my eyes to the fact that Biblical teaching is a fallacy.

 

Then, I began to observe what was really happening at my church's worship services. The trappings of organized worship have all the elements needed to reinforce its particular belief system and I thought: This looks a lot like a cult! The music, the hymns, and praise songs, good and faithful church members running to the altar bawling their eyes out at some perceived sin, the preacher ranting and raving the crux of which was that we weren't being good enough. We didn't pray enough, didn't give enough, didn't serve enough or witness enough. You can never live up to the expectations of God. No wonder the pastor and staff work tirelessly finding new ways to get the congregation to keep coming back. If they didn't, the last dose of indoctrination would wear off and they might start to question the validity of it all. But I'm not blaming anyone but myself for I was just as duped as they are and I could have investigated what I was believing long before I actually did.

 

But the really ironic thing about my departure is this: In John 8:31-32 Jesus says to the Jews who believed in him: "If you continue in My word, then you are disciples Of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."  The last 15 months before I de-converted I spent anywhere from 1 to 4 hours a day reading and studying the Bible (on my own) accompanied by prayer. I wanted a "closer walk with the Lord." I wanted also to rid myself of a besetting sin that had caused me more than a little guilt and angst all my adult life. So I had set upon a concentrated effort toward freedom. Little did I know that in my deeper Bible study I would find the real truth concerning the Bible and the whole incongruity of Christian doctrine. I don't think that's what Jesus had in mind when He was speaking of freedom to the Jews (if indeed he did) but it became my reality and I'm glad it did. 

 

In my brand of evangelicalism, you were encouraged to write out a two-minute testimony and a five-minute testimony. After memorization, these could be used in verbal witnessing to unbelievers. The format was simple. You describe what your life was like before you became a Christian, what happened to cause you to confess Christ as your Lord and Savior, and what your life is like now. Of course, your new life is supposed to be far better than your old life whether much changed or not. I'm thinking about writing a similar testimony about my transition from a believer to an unbeliever and how liberated I now feel, how free, how excited and thirsty I am for knowledge. Guilt and anxiety are giving way to real joy and peace with myself. Life is good.

[LogicalFallacy]

You describe what your life was like before you became a Christian...

Hmm see I could never do that - I can only describe what its like being brought up christian then finding out the world is not as the bible says it is.

 

Deno you mentioned songs about perceived sin, and in line with our opening posts I have some crackers we sang in tonight's service:

 

Song 1)

"All that I have, all that I am, 

Cannot repay the love debt I owe

I surrender to thee"

 

Song 2)

"He paid a debt he did not owe

I owed a debt I could not pay

I needed someone to wash my sins away"

 

So here we have a basic message, reinforced by singing, that you were born in sin, you needed saving, you can't save yourself, and God paid the debt for you which you now need to surrender to him for.

 

Now what no pastor/minister/preacher or the bible will tell you is why this sin occurred in the first place. 

 

Let me break it down for those who may be reading and unaware: Essentially everything can be traced back to God. He is all powerful, all knowing or else he isn't God. This God created the perfect garden, and man fell... but wait he had a plan before he created the universe to redeem mankind - the same mankind that he created. God also created the serpent, knowing that Adam and Eve would fall and condemn the rest of the human race based on his rules and dictate. You HAVE to believe that if you are a Christian. If God didn't know then he's not God, if God couldn't stop man from falling, or alter anything then he's not God.

 

But it's not true, Adam and Eve didn't happen, therefore the rest of the bible is irrelevant.

[Margee]

R.S. What a fantastic thread. I am also one of the lucky ones to be tucked away in a safe house right now as I watch half the world bombing each other and have to put up with all my relatives posting, ''It's Merry Christmas'' and not 'Happy Holidays''. I even thought of going off of Facebook for a while because it triggers me so bad and makes me want to scream in anger.  I have a really hard time at x-mas. The carols that I once sang with such feeling bring me to tears today. I remember like it was yesterday, mom going in the hospital in December and dying a sudden death on the 21st and they buried her quickly on the 23rd so it wouldn't interfere with x-mas eve. I was in such a spin. Coffin surrounded by poinsettias and singing 'Silent Night'. I was still a christian back then and I remember begging god not to take mom at her favorite time of the year. But they all told me that mom was going to have x-mas in heaven and how wonderful that was going to be. I just finally had some time to read through this whole post and it has brought up such wonderful points. I used to sing a lot in the churches and I put so much feeling into the songs that sometimes I couldn't even make it through the whole song without crying. Now I look at those words in those songs and think about how god-damned empty they were.

 

Great post my dear.

Big (hug) to you and everyone else on this site who always keeps me half-way sane.....