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Goodbye Jesus

Galatians 5:19-24 And James 2:14-16


GaudierGash

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Bear with me, and please, if you can, help me with the translations and meaning behind the original greek words... So, what would happen to the world if all humans all of a sudden started following the teachings in Galatians 5:19-24 and James 2:14-16? What could we expect from God if he followed these verses? Here are the verses:

 

 

Galatians 5:19-24
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
 
James 2:14-16
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
 
 

 

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So what this is about is that no matter how much I would like to get rid of the fear and lead a normal life, free from OCD, I can't help but to think that the Christian way of life, like the way it's actually meant to be lived, or a Buddhist lifestyle for that matter, would be good. It would be truly empathic, kind and loving. And it feels like having that knowledge, and not acting upon it, would be truly selfish and egoistical. So I just can't shed it, because there is a part of me who feels like leading a selfish lifestyle is wrong and should deserve some kind of punishment, having the knowledge to know how not to live that way.

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Jag är benägen att hålla med. Välkommen till Ex-C smile.png

 

Edit: In english: "I'm inclined to agree". 

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Jag är benägen att hålla med. Välkommen till Ex-C smile.png

Hela kontentan eller delar av det hela? Utveckla gärna! smile.png Tackar ödmjukast!

 

EDIT: Sitter och läser din signatur med hur jag tänker att man pratade då; någon sorts högfärdig småländska med lönnfet underton. Underhållande.

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Okay, for the benefit of others on this site, let's switch to the appropriate lingua franca shall we? wink.png

 

Unlike many others on this site - who're not only atheist, but staunch anti-theists - I'm not categorically opposed to religion as such. I do believe there are things of value to be found in some religious teachings, even in Christianity. To me, it seems like a lot of Jesus' message dealt with transcending the ego, looking beyond oneself for the benefit of the community and so on, which is an idea that is compatible with the teachings of, for instance, the Buddha. Although I'm leaning in the direction of agnostic atheism, I'm inclined to believe that some sort of "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) world view may be beneficial, and I'm absolutely certain that a thoroughly materialistic attitude is detrimental to both the individual and society at large. 

 

If one could do away with the superstitions and the dogmatism, and apply certain religious teachings as general practical guidelines, well, I'm not so sure that'd would be a bad idea.

There's a guy named Peter Rollins, an atheist philosopher, who tries to do just that, using Christianity as a base:
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheOrthodoxHeretic
https://peterrollins.net/about/

 

 

 

EDIT: Sitter och läser din signatur med hur jag tänker att man pratade då; någon sorts högfärdig småländska med lönnfet underton. Underhållande.

 

Tycker det är skitskoj med gamla texter. Det skall dock sägas att språket i gamla texter ofta (som ju är fallet även idag; hur ofta uttalar du D:t i t.ex. "djur"? S, K och J i "skjuta"?) var något ålderdomligt redan då, plus att man hade lustiga idéer om vad som såg estetiskt tilltalande ut i en text o.s.v. Ibland slängde man in stavningskonventioner från främmande språk (t.ex. Latin) eftersom det "såg rätt ut". Sedan var ju stavningen tämligen inkonsekvent (just Gustav Vasas Bibel var ett av de verk som lade grunden för en likriktning i det svensk skriftspråket) och folk stavade lite hur de ville. 

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So what this is about is that no matter how much I would like to get rid of the fear and lead a normal life, free from OCD, I can't help but to think that the Christian way of life, like the way it's actually meant to be lived, or a Buddhist lifestyle for that matter, would be good. It would be truly empathic, kind and loving. And it feels like having that knowledge, and not acting upon it, would be truly selfish and egoistical. So I just can't shed it, because there is a part of me who feels like leading a selfish lifestyle is wrong and should deserve some kind of punishment, having the knowledge to know how not to live that way.

 

Having said all that, I must say (as a fellow "OCD:er" at that) that I think you should stay clear of thinking along the lines of "Do I deserve a good life? Am I worthy?" et cetera. They'll only bring you sorrow, and in the end make it harder for you to be a truly loving, charitable human being. Embrace the fact that you simply can not be sure (I know it's hard, believe me. I spent the better part of last autumn being on the verge of psychosis brooding over this crap, having anxiety attacks that lasted not for hours, but days on end) about everything. There's a certain beauty in accepting uncertainty

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Hi... and thank goodness for Google translate... one can get the gist of whats being said. (Some of it makes no sense whatsoever though lol)

 

 

 

So what this is about is that no matter how much I would like to get rid of the fear and lead a normal life, free from OCD, I can't help but to think that the Christian way of life, like the way it's actually meant to be lived, or a Buddhist lifestyle for that matter, would be good. It would be truly empathic, kind and loving. And it feels like having that knowledge, and not acting upon it, would be truly selfish and egoistical. So I just can't shed it, because there is a part of me who feels like leading a selfish lifestyle is wrong and should deserve some kind of punishment, having the knowledge to know how not to live that way.

 

I agree with rjn somewhat on the subject of being categorically opposed to religion. I am not opposed to 'good' parts of religion, the problem is that religion often brings out the worst in fanatics, fundies, conservatives etc. I think much of the major religions today, as it stands, are detrimental to human society. It divides humanity. 

 

In saying that if a person wants to take the good bits (Say love thy neighbor) and throw out the bad bits (Say kill those who work on the Sabbath) then I have no issue. My personal view is why can't one live a good moral life without having to believe in some God or having to have some religious belief? But that's just me, and I understand some, even though they don't believe in God, still like to have a higher belief. That's fine, just don't force it down my throat, and don't use it to inform your opinion of important topics that affect society.

 

Regards to how to live a good life:

Bible says to avoid:

"Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelling"
 
Certainly not doing some, or most of these things, is a very good idea. It will help you lead a good moral life. I will disagree with some here when I say that one should follow some code of sexual behavior. I think lack of commitment to relationships, sleeping around etc is not beneficial to an individual or society as a whole. I also think one should be faithful to a partner. Idolatry and witchcraft, not sure if they are issues today. Heresies- again only important if you are religious. Drunkenness and reveling - I would say drinking to excess in which you can't control your actions, then driving is immoral behavior and a threat to oneself and society. Reveling, if we call that like rioting, again, not good behavior. So many of these things maybe don't need total avoidance, but balance and responsible behavior.
 
Likewise applying most of these to your life is also good" "love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith" Faith can be left out. If something is acceptable you can believe it, if not and you'd need faith, then throw it away. The rest humanity had long before the bible came into existence.
 
I have looked into ancient Egypt, and from what we can tell, they had a very fair, very equal society for their time. Come the Israelites several thousand years later and the rest is history.
 
So TL;DR yes the bible has some great moral advice that humanity would do well to heed. No you don't need a god that does not exist to do it.
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Hi... and thank goodness for Google translate... one can get the gist of whats being said. (Some of it makes no sense whatsoever though lol)

 

The Swedish stuff wasn't really that relevant. The last paragraph in my second post was a response to his comment about my signature, which is a biblical quote in late medieval Swedish. I edited my first post and added an English translation for the first sentence. The second one should be obvious wink.png

 

Regarding the rest of your post, I whole-heartedly agree. 

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I don't see how one can find joy and peace in long suffering. It seems to be a complete contradiction to me.

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To add

 

The core issues stemming from such texts appears to be an appeal to fight against how God made us. It makes no sense.

 

The text seems to say just being human is a sin, which is Christianity generally

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Castiel, I believe the meaning of 'long suffering' is to be patient with others. Not that you should suffer in the meaning of suffer.

 

Long suffering

"having or showing patience in spite of troubles, especially those caused by other people."

 

This virtue I think in many cases is valuable. Example: Lets say a co-worker has caused you some trouble. Blowing your top off and smacking them about the skull i.e. being wrathful is not in your best interests here. A bit of long suffering will help your blood pressure, and maintain your employment. 

 

Various meditation and mindfulness programs teach this concept.

 

Regards to your second point. True the bible does talk of the struggle of human nature. Christians would say its because our current state is not our 'first estate" but that we are fallen and thus must conquer the fallen nature.

 

I was coming from a point of view that certain concepts are beneficial to adopt, and are not necessarily restricted as biblical teachings as any study of world religions and culture will show.

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I do believe there are things of value to be found in some religious teachings, even in Christianity. To me, it seems like a lot of Jesus' message dealt with transcending the ego, looking beyond oneself for the benefit of the community and so on, which is an idea that is compatible with the teachings of, for instance, the Buddha. Although I'm leaning in the direction of agnostic atheism, I'm inclined to believe that some sort of "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) world view may be beneficial, and I'm absolutely certain that a thoroughly materialistic attitude is detrimental to both the individual and society at large. 

 

If one could do away with the superstitions and the dogmatism, and apply certain religious teachings as general practical guidelines, well, I'm not so sure that'd would be a bad idea.

There's a guy named Peter Rollins, an atheist philosopher, who tries to do just that, using Christianity as a base:

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheOrthodoxHeretic

https://peterrollins.net/about/

 

Tycker det är skitskoj med gamla texter. Det skall dock sägas att språket i gamla texter ofta (som ju är fallet även idag; hur ofta uttalar du D:t i t.ex. "djur"? S, K och J i "skjuta"?) var något ålderdomligt redan då, plus att man hade lustiga idéer om vad som såg estetiskt tilltalande ut i en text o.s.v. Ibland slängde man in stavningskonventioner från främmande språk (t.ex. Latin) eftersom det "såg rätt ut". Sedan var ju stavningen tämligen inkonsekvent (just Gustav Vasas Bibel var ett av de verk som lade grunden för en likriktning i det svensk skriftspråket) och folk stavade lite hur de ville. 

That makes a lot of sense to me, just but one thing... If you're a sociopath let's say, you lack a certain amount of empathy, you'll probably treat others badly. Your conscience is limited. If that person lives by his/her own standards, it could possibly be disastrous; Christianity with its fear based system could keep a person like that on track. I seem to remember the bible mentioning that a fear of God is the beginning of knowledge. 

 

If you go by that principle, then I guess the same should be for all people - some kind of standard to live up to. For a sociopath just being an ok person to others would be hard, and for someone empathic being an ok person would be easy. The struggle in life to be kind to others, to be 'ok', should either be hard for all, or easy for all. Should you at least be an ok person to others? Is it important? Would a God think so? This would mean most 'good' people are failing, since they're not doing hard work. Or is God hard on some, easy on others? Would that be fair?

 

 

So what this is about is that no matter how much I would like to get rid of the fear and lead a normal life, free from OCD, I can't help but to think that the Christian way of life, like the way it's actually meant to be lived, or a Buddhist lifestyle for that matter, would be good. It would be truly empathic, kind and loving. And it feels like having that knowledge, and not acting upon it, would be truly selfish and egoistical. So I just can't shed it, because there is a part of me who feels like leading a selfish lifestyle is wrong and should deserve some kind of punishment, having the knowledge to know how not to live that way.

 

Having said all that, I must say (as a fellow "OCD:er" at that) that I think you should stay clear of thinking along the lines of "Do I deserve a good life? Am I worthy?" et cetera. They'll only bring you sorrow, and in the end make it harder for you to be a truly loving, charitable human being. Embrace the fact that you simply can not be sure (I know it's hard, believe me. I spent the better part of last autumn being on the verge of psychosis brooding over this crap, having anxiety attacks that lasted not for hours, but days on end) about everything. There's a certain beauty in accepting uncertainty

 

Why? If I have a good basis of knowledge to say I'm a pretty bad person, why shouldn't I question these things? If I bring sorrow to others, shouldn't I reap what I sow? If I bring nothing to others, shouldn't my life be inapprehensive and dull? What about karma?

 

I know I cannot be sure, but I would like to be the bigger person and make a choice that I can look back on, that would make me proud of myself. Someone once told me that at some point in my life I should start serving my future self, least I should look back on a life full of disappointment.

 

In saying that if a person wants to take the good bits (Say love thy neighbor) and throw out the bad bits (Say kill those who work on the Sabbath) then I have no issue. My personal view is why can't one live a good moral life without having to believe in some God or having to have some religious belief? But that's just me, and I understand some, even though they don't believe in God, still like to have a higher belief. That's fine, just don't force it down my throat, and don't use it to inform your opinion of important topics that affect society.

 
I have looked into ancient Egypt, and from what we can tell, they had a very fair, very equal society for their time. Come the Israelites several thousand years later and the rest is history.
 
So TL;DR yes the bible has some great moral advice that humanity would do well to heed. No you don't need a god that does not exist to do it.

 

I have a feeling that every person should be their own hard critic of personality, even 'good' people. For a good person to be critical enough of their own self is hard, it's hard to realize such a thing. What could get them there? A fear of God, a fear of judgement? Could a little bit of fear be beneficial to start inspecting oneself, for the good of mankind?

 

To add

 

The core issues stemming from such texts appears to be an appeal to fight against how God made us. It makes no sense.

 

The text seems to say just being human is a sin, which is Christianity generally

But shouldn't all people inspect themselves for the good of mankind, of existence? We have this psyche, we got it somehow. If we are able to go against our own nature, shouldn't we really emrace that and do something if only just because we can? Sentient life seem to be a rarity in the universe; consciousness even more so. If saying something is sin, if fear could somehow elevate a human being to such actions as to become good for existence, isn't it worth it? 

 

Various meditation and mindfulness programs teach this concept.

 

Regards to your second point. True the bible does talk of the struggle of human nature. Christians would say its because our current state is not our 'first estate" but that we are fallen and thus must conquer the fallen nature.

 

I was coming from a point of view that certain concepts are beneficial to adopt, and are not necessarily restricted as biblical teachings as any study of world religions and culture will show.

Could you tell me more about these mindfulness programs?

 

I think our default state is being an animal, living after your own devices, and then God or Christ helps us see beyond that. Isn't that what the bible is trying to say?

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You're basically asking if fear is a good motivator for getting people to act "good". That's what it all boils down to. I'd have to say that yes, perhaps in certain situations, that might be the case, but overall, fear is not a good fundament to build much of anything on, least of all a healthy spiritual relationship with whatever creed one espouses. There's also the little problem of defining what is "good" or "bad". If everyone adhered slavishly to strict Sharia, the World would be at peace too, but that doesn't mean it'd be a very fair or nice system. Ask a salafi however, and they'd say that would be the very definition of "Good". 

 

Trying to make the most out of your life and striving for happiness (your own and others) is a all fine and good, but that's not the same thing as succumbing to something that's basically just a more elaborate version of Pascal's Wager. 

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Maybe slightly off topic.

 

I think that forcing yourself to love and fear a stern god that you cannot see while at the same time berating and hating yourself for being human causes dreadful mental suffering.

 

Christianity demands that you hate yourself for being faulty while worshipping the being that made you that way

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I will reply more fully later to Gaudier, but quickly, I agree with what Castiel said.

 

Christianity has taken fear too far, and gone from where it is beneficial to keep society running, to where it's mental abuse that most of us here can relate to.

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I think our default state is being an animal, living after your own devices, and then God or Christ helps us see beyond that. Isn't that what the bible is trying to say?

 

 

I agree that going beyond the purely animalistic impulses (being perpetually horny, anger, rage, impulsiveness or et cetera) is warranted more often than not, but let's not completely deny the fact that we ARE animals. Personally, I think some sort of balance is worth striving for, but if the "animal side" is bad, answer this: why is it that "primitive" societies (and no, I'm not falling for some "noble savage" myth here) are more in tune with their surroundings and their families, are less violent, and impact the environment way less than "civilized" people do? To me it seems like the ideal state before the fall, in Eden, was very much like that of a child or an animal. Adam and Eve were ignorant and innocent, not enlightened and divine. 

 

Edit: Also, check your inbox, you've got mail. 

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To add:

 

I think the whole "you have to be dead to yourself" while attempting to understand and obey conflicting orders in The Bible, while pretending to be in a meaningful relationship with something you cannot see or hear and have never met is a recipe for disaster. 

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Gaudier my answers in blue below:

 

 

 

In saying that if a person wants to take the good bits (Say love thy neighbor) and throw out the bad bits (Say kill those who work on the Sabbath) then I have no issue. My personal view is why can't one live a good moral life without having to believe in some God or having to have some religious belief? But that's just me, and I understand some, even though they don't believe in God, still like to have a higher belief. That's fine, just don't force it down my throat, and don't use it to inform your opinion of important topics that affect society.

 
I have looked into ancient Egypt, and from what we can tell, they had a very fair, very equal society for their time. Come the Israelites several thousand years later and the rest is history.
 
So TL;DR yes the bible has some great moral advice that humanity would do well to heed. No you don't need a god that does not exist to do it.

 

I have a feeling that every person should be their own hard critic of personality, even 'good' people. For a good person to be critical enough of their own self is hard, it's hard to realize such a thing. What could get them there? A fear of God, a fear of judgement? Could a little bit of fear be beneficial to start inspecting oneself, for the good of mankind?

 

Most certainly. In fact look at many of our laws - what stops you from committing many crimes? Often is fear of the punishment. While speeding is wrong from an ethical viewpoint of you are potentially harming others, it is often fear of a speeding ticket, or getting pulled up by police that stops you speeding. In fact it would be interesting to figure out whether from the ethical stand point you don't speed because you are truly concerned about potential negative impacts, or because you fear the negative impacts. (You kill someone, how do you feel, what will happen, etc)

 

However we need to differentiate good fear which helps society, from fear that is used as a control. We see fear being used in Islam with their fanatic fringe groups, we see fear being used in Christianity, and we see fear being used in North Korea. In each of these varying examples fear is not being used for the good of society, its being used to control people.

 

 

Various meditation and mindfulness programs teach this concept.

 

Regards to your second point. True the bible does talk of the struggle of human nature. Christians would say its because our current state is not our 'first estate" but that we are fallen and thus must conquer the fallen nature.

 

I was coming from a point of view that certain concepts are beneficial to adopt, and are not necessarily restricted as biblical teachings as any study of world religions and culture will show.

Could you tell me more about these mindfulness programs?

 

I think our default state is being an animal, living after your own devices, and then God or Christ helps us see beyond that. Isn't that what the bible is trying to say?

 

The new testament certainly has some aspects of living beyond your own selfish concerns. But the crux of the matter is that one must give up ones will and surrender to God which is different than just not looking out for oneself. The old testament is basically a tome of one group of people only concerned about themselves and wiping out anyone in their way. It has the odd nugget in it.. but not worth looking for.

 

 

So this is one program which I went through the demo for. It certainly works https://www.brainwave-research-institute.com/It basically uses entrainment to enhance meditation experience and unlock certain brainwave functions.

 

Similarly: http://www.stevenhalpern.com

 

For those who have trouble sleeping: http://www.sleeptracks.com/(Note I purchased this program, but probably didn't follow as fully as I should have. Nevertheless this program helped greatly during times I couldn't fall asleep.)

 

Please note I'm not endorsing these programs - I used some of their free beta wave material, and combined it with other research about meditation to get a self built program that best suited me. I bought the sleeptracks program which was worth it. Basically I've tried to take all the good points of various mindfulness programs and utilize them. There is also a lot of useful free info out there.

 

I have also used straight meditation. I went through a 3-4 year period of anxiety disorder and programs like these helped greatly, as well as understanding how and why anxiety occurs. (I have an awesome resource for anxiety sufferers if any one wants to PM me for it)

 

Other programs teach you to be aware of your thoughts, especially negative ones, so that you are able to better deal with them. (Note you cannot control your thoughts, but you can accept them and let them go.)

 

Like anything, getting a benefit out of these programs requires practice and patience. 

 

 

 

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You're basically asking if fear is a good motivator for getting people to act "good". That's what it all boils down to. I'd have to say that yes, perhaps in certain situations, that might be the case, but overall, fear is not a good fundament to build much of anything on, least of all a healthy spiritual relationship with whatever creed one espouses. There's also the little problem of defining what is "good" or "bad". If everyone adhered slavishly to strict Sharia, the World would be at peace too, but that doesn't mean it'd be a very fair or nice system. Ask a salafi however, and they'd say that would be the very definition of "Good". 

 

Trying to make the most out of your life and striving for happiness (your own and others) is a all fine and good, but that's not the same thing as succumbing to something that's basically just a more elaborate version of Pascal's Wager. 

I mean more that fear could be the 'kick out the door'. I mean if you're a God and you want total free will for your creation, a life of strive and hardship isn't the greatest sell, even if it works... So you have the love aspect to attract one audience and fear for another. I think as a lie, this could work, since the concept of hell is, well... you know. Just that most people won't even try God. I mean, I think there's something about having no possesions and no pride that would make for such a nice life... I have been considering Buddhism a lot too, since that doesn't have the fear aspect. Well, I know some branches do, but not in general.

 

Maybe slightly off topic.

 

I think that forcing yourself to love and fear a stern god that you cannot see while at the same time berating and hating yourself for being human causes dreadful mental suffering.

 

Christianity demands that you hate yourself for being faulty while worshipping the being that made you that way

I agree to some extent... But imagine how strong you could be if you didn't berate and hate yourself and just do the fucking thing instead. Be good, you know? Correct yourself.

 

Maybe he made us that way so that we could become so much better. The path is the goal style.

 

 

 

I think our default state is being an animal, living after your own devices, and then God or Christ helps us see beyond that. Isn't that what the bible is trying to say?

 

 

I agree that going beyond the purely animalistic impulses (being perpetually horny, anger, rage, impulsiveness or et cetera) is warranted more often than not, but let's not completely deny the fact that we ARE animals. Personally, I think some sort of balance is worth striving for, but if the "animal side" is bad, answer this: why is it that "primitive" societies (and no, I'm not falling for some "noble savage" myth here) are more in tune with their surroundings and their families, are less violent, and impact the environment way less than "civilized" people do? To me it seems like the ideal state before the fall, in Eden, was very much like that of a child or an animal. Adam and Eve were ignorant and innocent, not enlightened and divine. 

 

Edit: Also, check your inbox, you've got mail. 

 

I don't know. I don't know much about primitive societies. It feels like what you're saying would be kind of hard to know or prove... I'm no bigoted naysayer, if there are statistics I'll believe them. I'm not asking you for the burden of proof, I'll have to look it up myself.

 

Checked and answered! :)

 

To add:

 

I think the whole "you have to be dead to yourself" while attempting to understand and obey conflicting orders in The Bible, while pretending to be in a meaningful relationship with something you cannot see or hear and have never met is a recipe for disaster. 

It could be, I don't know. I'm trying to make sense of my thoughts is all. I don't want to go off the deep end, I want to make an informed decision.

 

However we need to differentiate good fear which helps society, from fear that is used as a control. We see fear being used in Islam with their fanatic fringe groups, we see fear being used in Christianity, and we see fear being used in North Korea. In each of these varying examples fear is not being used for the good of society, its being used to control people.

 

The old testament is basically a tome of one group of people only concerned about themselves and wiping out anyone in their way. It has the odd nugget in it.. but not worth looking for.

 

So this is one program which I went through the demo for. It certainly works https://www.brainwave-research-institute.com/It basically uses entrainment to enhance meditation experience and unlock certain brainwave functions.

 

Similarly: http://www.stevenhalpern.com

 

For those who have trouble sleeping: http://www.sleeptracks.com/(Note I purchased this program, but probably didn't follow as fully as I should have. Nevertheless this program helped greatly during times I couldn't fall asleep.)

 

Please note I'm not endorsing these programs - I used some of their free beta wave material, and combined it with other research about meditation to get a self built program that best suited me. I bought the sleeptracks program which was worth it. Basically I've tried to take all the good points of various mindfulness programs and utilize them. There is also a lot of useful free info out there.

 

I have also used straight meditation. I went through a 3-4 year period of anxiety disorder and programs like these helped greatly, as well as understanding how and why anxiety occurs. (I have an awesome resource for anxiety sufferers if any one wants to PM me for it)

 

Other programs teach you to be aware of your thoughts, especially negative ones, so that you are able to better deal with them. (Note you cannot control your thoughts, but you can accept them and let them go.)

 

Like anything, getting a benefit out of these programs requires practice and patience. 

 

 

 

 

Control people for what means?

 

It certainly seem that way, reading about killing (and rape?) and pillaging... But in context, is it all still that bad? What if "wiping out evil from within your midst" makes for a good society in the end? For the record, I don't think that way, but I'm a pretty lousy leader too, I think.

 

I'll check them out! Thanks!

 

How much did you meditate each day? Or how many times a week, for how long each?

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