bornagainathiest Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 Genesis 12 : 1 - 3 1 The Lord had said to Abram, "Go from your country, your people and your father's household to the land I will show you. 2 "I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." Tomorrow I will use the words of Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, to explain that... "and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you" ... does NOT refer to the nation of Israel, but to Jesus Christ. I didn't want to do this and I shouldn't have had to resort to creating this thread, but since Ironhorse has repeatedly rebuffed my repeated requests to engage with him about the true meaning of Genesis 12 : 3, his stubborns have forced my hand. Thanks, BAA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 Genesis 12 : 1 - 3 1 The Lord had said to Abram, "Go from your country, your people and your father's household to the land I will show you. 2 "I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." When Abram heard these words, what he didn't know at that time was that he actually hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, announced by God, thousands of years in advance of the birth of the Messiah. Nor could he have known that, 'all nations will be blessed through you' was a Gospel announcement about Jesus Christ being a blessing to all nations. At this time there were no Jews and the nation of Israel did not yet exist. On that day they only existed as promises given to Abram by God. And this is the very understanding all Jews have taken from this passage of scripture since then. That God fulfilled his promises to Abram, by making him the founding father of the Israelite people. This exclusively patriarchal understanding of God's promise is not the full story, however. Nor is it the understanding that Christians should hold to. A new, better and complete understanding was revealed by God to the apostle Paul. One that supersedes the original and incomplete understanding held by the Jews. It is this new understanding of what God meant in His promises to Abram that I will now explain. So, how do we know that Genesis 12 : 3 refers to Jesus Christ and not to Abram (Abraham) or Israel? We know because Paul explained it to the church of the Galatians. Galatians 3 : 7 - 9 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Paul then went further, explaining that these promises referred not to the whole nation of Israel, but to one specific descendant of Abraham - Jesus Christ. Galatians 3 : 15 & 16 15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. So, God's promises were made to Abraham and his seed (Jesus Christ) and not to Abraham and his seeds (Israel). Abraham couldn't have known the full scope of the promise that God made to him on that day. At that time he would have concluded that God was promising to make him the father of a great nation. He would not have concluded one of his descendants would actually... BE ...God Himself, incarnated in the flesh of a mortal man. The humble son of a carpenter. Such knowledge was not only beyond Abraham's imagination but this information was deliberately withheld from him and from the Jewish nation until God was ready to announce it to the world. Paul explained this to the Ephesian church, like this... Ephesians 3 : 2 - 11. 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. The mystery of Christ that was not made known to Abraham or any other generation of the Jewish people was this. Their God (as Jesus Christ) would become a blessing to all nations. So the promise given in Genesis 12 : 3 refers not to the nation of Israel blessing the Gentiles, but to God Himself (as Jesus) blessing both to the Jews of Israel and the Gentiles with salvation. The full magnitude of God's promise was necessarily hidden from Abraham and the Jews, because their hearts and minds were not ready to accept this message. The message that God's love extends not only to His Chosen People, but also to the entire world. This refusal to accept the salvation of the Gentiles has been stumbling block for the Jews since God first appointed Paul as His apostle to the Gentiles. Time and again in his letters to the early churches Paul reminds, corrects and disciplines his fellow Christians regarding which gospel is the truth. He warns them that any other gospel than that of Jesus Christ is no gospel at all and that anyone preaching such a gospel is under God's curse. Galatians 1 : 6 - 9 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! So, when the Gentile Christian Ironhorse concludes that the words, 'and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you' refers to the nation of Israel and not to Jesus Christ, he is making a grave error. Since he is both a Christian of the New Covenant of the blood of Jesus Christ and a Gentile, he should agree with the words of Paul, God's appointed apostle to the Gentiles. If Ironhorse were a Jew, then he could be forgiven for reading and interpreting Genesis 12 : 3 in purely patriarchal, Old Testament terms. For thinking that God's promises refer only to the nation of Israel. But since Ironhorse is a Gentile and not a Jew, he should read and interpret the book of Genesis as a Gentile Christian and not as a Jew. In his letters Paul strongly reminded, reprimanded and disciplined the early Gentile churches for their readiness to abandon the new covenant of Grace by going back to the old Jewish covenant of the Law. In a similar way, Ironhorse has abandoned his Christ-centered, gospel understanding of Genesis 12 for a patriarchal, Jewish, Israel-centered one - in clear contradiction to Paul's revealed understanding from God. I therefore strongly advise Ironhorse to admit his error, to withdraw his false conclusion and to bring his understanding into line with that of Paul's. If he fails to do so then he will be preaching a gospel other than that of Jesus Christ and he will be putting himself under God's curse. Thanks, BAA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 BAA, This is too good to go to waste. I've read through it a couple of times wondering if I could refute it by playing Devil's Jesus' advocate, and I don't think I could. Here's a bump on me to keep hope alive that maybe Ironhorse will get back to you on it. Of course, you can lead an Ironhorse to water... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 Thanks for taking the time to check this, Dude. I appreciate that. Re: Ironhorse responding, there are a number of options open to me. I can place a polite request for him to respond in this thread and 'bump' it up for his attention, from time to time. I can place a link in threads where he continues to be active, informing him about this one and politely requesting that he reply. I can place a link in any new threads he's active in, informing him about this one and politely requesting that he reply. I can PM a polite request and a link to him, asking that he reply. I can PM him a link and the whole of post # 2 and politely request that he reply. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Or we could just stop giving him his unearned popularity. I know this is unlikely. I no longer directly engage IH on his threads because even though he's a nice person to interact with, his interactions are extremely dishonest. This is easily explained as he is mostly dishonest with himself I believe. He dodges every difficulty and if necessary just goes limp or disappears when trapped. What upsets me about him is that I think he's campaigning through various forums flinging daisies and unicorns like some psuedo-spiritual Johnny Appleseed thinking he's doing the "lord's work". He's dangerous to a weak de-convert due to his good-neighbor chumminess. But it's actually very dishonest. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 Or we could just stop giving him his unearned popularity. I know this is unlikely. I no longer directly engage IH on his threads because even though he's a nice person to interact with, his interactions are extremely dishonest. This is easily explained as he is mostly dishonest with himself I believe. He dodges every difficulty and if necessary just goes limp or disappears when trapped. What upsets me about him is that I think he's campaigning through various forums flinging daisies and unicorns like some psuedo-spiritual Johnny Appleseed thinking he's doing the "lord's work". He's dangerous to a weak de-convert due to his good-neighbor chumminess. But it's actually very dishonest. Agree, Jeff. But you've also highlighted the very reason why we must continue to directly engage him... even if he fails to respond. Because he's dangerous to the lurkers and the newly deconverted. Often they are emotionally fragile and vulnerable and might get taken in by his superficial charm. However, as you point out, beneath that likable exterior lurks a deeply dishonest person. It's therefore our duty to protect the vulnerable from him at every point, 24/7, for as long as it takes. It's also just as important for Ironhorse himself to see that he can't grind us down by sheers stubborns. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted December 2, 2016 Author Share Posted December 2, 2016 This has just been PMed to Ironhorse. --------------------------------------------------------------- Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:30 AM Genesis 12 : 1 - 3 1 The Lord had said to Abram, "Go from your country, your people and your father's household to the land I will show you. 2 "I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." When Abram heard these words, what he didn't know at that time was that he actually hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, announced by God, thousands of years in advance of the birth of the Messiah. Nor could he have known that, 'all nations will be blessed through you' was a Gospel announcement about Jesus Christ being a blessing to all nations. At this time there were no Jews and the nation of Israel did not yet exist. On that day they only existed as promises given to Abram by God. And this is the very understanding all Jews have taken from this passage of scripture since then. That God fulfilled his promises to Abram, by making him the founding father of the Israelite people. This exclusively patriarchal understanding of God's promise is not the full story, however. Nor is it the understanding that Christians should hold to. A new, better and complete understanding was revealed by God to the apostle Paul. One that supersedes the original and incomplete understanding held by the Jews. It is this new understanding of what God meant in His promises to Abram that I will now explain. So, how do we know that Genesis 12 : 3 refers to Jesus Christ and not to Abram (Abraham) or Israel? We know because Paul explained it to the church of the Galatians. Galatians 3 : 7 - 9 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Paul then went further, explaining that these promises referred not to the whole nation of Israel, but to one specific descendant of Abraham - Jesus Christ. Galatians 3 : 15 & 16 15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. So, God's promises were made to Abraham and his seed (Jesus Christ) and not to Abraham and his seeds (Israel). Abraham couldn't have known the full scope of the promise that God made to him on that day. At that time he would have concluded that God was promising to make him the father of a great nation. He would not have concluded one of his descendants would actually... BE ...God Himself, incarnated in the flesh of a mortal man. The humble son of a carpenter. Such knowledge was not only beyond Abraham's imagination but this information was deliberately withheld from him and from the Jewish nation until God was ready to announce it to the world. Paul explained this to the Ephesian church, like this... Ephesians 3 : 2 - 11. 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. The mystery of Christ that was not made known to Abraham or any other generation of the Jewish people was this. Their God (as Jesus Christ) would become a blessing to all nations. So the promise given in Genesis 12 : 3 refers not to the nation of Israel blessing the Gentiles, but to God Himself (as Jesus) blessing both to the Jews of Israel and the Gentiles with salvation. The full magnitude of God's promise was necessarily hidden from Abraham and the Jews, because their hearts and minds were not ready to accept this message. The message that God's love extends not only to His Chosen People, but also to the entire world. This refusal to accept the salvation of the Gentiles has been stumbling block for the Jews since God first appointed Paul as His apostle to the Gentiles. Time and again in his letters to the early churches Paul reminds, corrects and disciplines his fellow Christians regarding which gospel is the truth. He warns them that any other gospel than that of Jesus Christ is no gospel at all and that anyone preaching such a gospel is under God's curse. Galatians 1 : 6 - 9 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! So, when the Gentile Christian Ironhorse concludes that the words, 'and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you' refers to the nation of Israel and not to Jesus Christ, he is making a grave error. Since he is both a Christian of the New Covenant of the blood of Jesus Christ and a Gentile, he should agree with the words of Paul, God's appointed apostle to the Gentiles. If Ironhorse were a Jew, then he could be forgiven for reading and interpreting Genesis 12 : 3 in purely patriarchal, Old Testament terms. For thinking that God's promises refer only to the nation of Israel. But since Ironhorse is a Gentile and not a Jew, he should read and interpret the book of Genesis as a Gentile Christian and not as a Jew. In his letters Paul strongly reminded, reprimanded and disciplined the early Gentile churches for their readiness to abandon the new covenant of Grace by going back to the old Jewish covenant of the Law. In a similar way, Ironhorse has abandoned his Christ-centered, gospel understanding of Genesis 12 for a patriarchal, Jewish, Israel-centered one - in clear contradiction to Paul's revealed understanding from God. I therefore strongly advise Ironhorse to admit his error, to withdraw his false conclusion and to bring his understanding into line with that of Paul's. If he fails to do so then he will be preaching a gospel other than that of Jesus Christ and he will be putting himself under God's curse. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 This has just been PMed to Ironhorse. --------------------------------------------------------------- Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:30 AM Genesis 12 : 1 - 3 1 The Lord had said to Abram, "Go from your country, your people and your father's household to the land I will show you. 2 "I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." When Abram heard these words, what he didn't know at that time was that he actually hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, announced by God, thousands of years in advance of the birth of the Messiah. Nor could he have known that, 'all nations will be blessed through you' was a Gospel announcement about Jesus Christ being a blessing to all nations. At this time there were no Jews and the nation of Israel did not yet exist. On that day they only existed as promises given to Abram by God. And this is the very understanding all Jews have taken from this passage of scripture since then. That God fulfilled his promises to Abram, by making him the founding father of the Israelite people. This exclusively patriarchal understanding of God's promise is not the full story, however. Nor is it the understanding that Christians should hold to. A new, better and complete understanding was revealed by God to the apostle Paul. One that supersedes the original and incomplete understanding held by the Jews. It is this new understanding of what God meant in His promises to Abram that I will now explain. So, how do we know that Genesis 12 : 3 refers to Jesus Christ and not to Abram (Abraham) or Israel? We know because Paul explained it to the church of the Galatians. Galatians 3 : 7 - 9 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Paul then went further, explaining that these promises referred not to the whole nation of Israel, but to one specific descendant of Abraham - Jesus Christ. Galatians 3 : 15 & 16 15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. So, God's promises were made to Abraham and his seed (Jesus Christ) and not to Abraham and his seeds (Israel). Abraham couldn't have known the full scope of the promise that God made to him on that day. At that time he would have concluded that God was promising to make him the father of a great nation. He would not have concluded one of his descendants would actually... BE ...God Himself, incarnated in the flesh of a mortal man. The humble son of a carpenter. Such knowledge was not only beyond Abraham's imagination but this information was deliberately withheld from him and from the Jewish nation until God was ready to announce it to the world. Paul explained this to the Ephesian church, like this... Ephesians 3 : 2 - 11. 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. The mystery of Christ that was not made known to Abraham or any other generation of the Jewish people was this. Their God (as Jesus Christ) would become a blessing to all nations. So the promise given in Genesis 12 : 3 refers not to the nation of Israel blessing the Gentiles, but to God Himself (as Jesus) blessing both to the Jews of Israel and the Gentiles with salvation. The full magnitude of God's promise was necessarily hidden from Abraham and the Jews, because their hearts and minds were not ready to accept this message. The message that God's love extends not only to His Chosen People, but also to the entire world. This refusal to accept the salvation of the Gentiles has been stumbling block for the Jews since God first appointed Paul as His apostle to the Gentiles. Time and again in his letters to the early churches Paul reminds, corrects and disciplines his fellow Christians regarding which gospel is the truth. He warns them that any other gospel than that of Jesus Christ is no gospel at all and that anyone preaching such a gospel is under God's curse. Galatians 1 : 6 - 9 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! So, when the Gentile Christian Ironhorse concludes that the words, 'and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you' refers to the nation of Israel and not to Jesus Christ, he is making a grave error. Since he is both a Christian of the New Covenant of the blood of Jesus Christ and a Gentile, he should agree with the words of Paul, God's appointed apostle to the Gentiles. If Ironhorse were a Jew, then he could be forgiven for reading and interpreting Genesis 12 : 3 in purely patriarchal, Old Testament terms. For thinking that God's promises refer only to the nation of Israel. But since Ironhorse is a Gentile and not a Jew, he should read and interpret the book of Genesis as a Gentile Christian and not as a Jew. In his letters Paul strongly reminded, reprimanded and disciplined the early Gentile churches for their readiness to abandon the new covenant of Grace by going back to the old Jewish covenant of the Law. In a similar way, Ironhorse has abandoned his Christ-centered, gospel understanding of Genesis 12 for a patriarchal, Jewish, Israel-centered one - in clear contradiction to Paul's revealed understanding from God. I therefore strongly advise Ironhorse to admit his error, to withdraw his false conclusion and to bring his understanding into line with that of Paul's. If he fails to do so then he will be preaching a gospel other than that of Jesus Christ and he will be putting himself under God's curse. Thanks, BAA. I therefore strongly advise Ironhorse to admit his error, to withdraw his false conclusion and to bring his understanding into line with that of Paul's. If he fails to do so then he will be preaching a gospel other than that of Jesus Christ and he will be putting himself under God's curse. God's curse? I'm free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 2, 2017 Author Share Posted January 2, 2017 This has just been PMed to Ironhorse. --------------------------------------------------------------- Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:30 AM Genesis 12 : 1 - 3 1 The Lord had said to Abram, "Go from your country, your people and your father's household to the land I will show you. 2 "I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." When Abram heard these words, what he didn't know at that time was that he actually hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, announced by God, thousands of years in advance of the birth of the Messiah. Nor could he have known that, 'all nations will be blessed through you' was a Gospel announcement about Jesus Christ being a blessing to all nations. At this time there were no Jews and the nation of Israel did not yet exist. On that day they only existed as promises given to Abram by God. And this is the very understanding all Jews have taken from this passage of scripture since then. That God fulfilled his promises to Abram, by making him the founding father of the Israelite people. This exclusively patriarchal understanding of God's promise is not the full story, however. Nor is it the understanding that Christians should hold to. A new, better and complete understanding was revealed by God to the apostle Paul. One that supersedes the original and incomplete understanding held by the Jews. It is this new understanding of what God meant in His promises to Abram that I will now explain. So, how do we know that Genesis 12 : 3 refers to Jesus Christ and not to Abram (Abraham) or Israel? We know because Paul explained it to the church of the Galatians. Galatians 3 : 7 - 9 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Paul then went further, explaining that these promises referred not to the whole nation of Israel, but to one specific descendant of Abraham - Jesus Christ. Galatians 3 : 15 & 16 15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. So, God's promises were made to Abraham and his seed (Jesus Christ) and not to Abraham and his seeds (Israel). Abraham couldn't have known the full scope of the promise that God made to him on that day. At that time he would have concluded that God was promising to make him the father of a great nation. He would not have concluded one of his descendants would actually... BE ...God Himself, incarnated in the flesh of a mortal man. The humble son of a carpenter. Such knowledge was not only beyond Abraham's imagination but this information was deliberately withheld from him and from the Jewish nation until God was ready to announce it to the world. Paul explained this to the Ephesian church, like this... Ephesians 3 : 2 - 11. 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. The mystery of Christ that was not made known to Abraham or any other generation of the Jewish people was this. Their God (as Jesus Christ) would become a blessing to all nations. So the promise given in Genesis 12 : 3 refers not to the nation of Israel blessing the Gentiles, but to God Himself (as Jesus) blessing both to the Jews of Israel and the Gentiles with salvation. The full magnitude of God's promise was necessarily hidden from Abraham and the Jews, because their hearts and minds were not ready to accept this message. The message that God's love extends not only to His Chosen People, but also to the entire world. This refusal to accept the salvation of the Gentiles has been stumbling block for the Jews since God first appointed Paul as His apostle to the Gentiles. Time and again in his letters to the early churches Paul reminds, corrects and disciplines his fellow Christians regarding which gospel is the truth. He warns them that any other gospel than that of Jesus Christ is no gospel at all and that anyone preaching such a gospel is under God's curse. Galatians 1 : 6 - 9 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! So, when the Gentile Christian Ironhorse concludes that the words, 'and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you' refers to the nation of Israel and not to Jesus Christ, he is making a grave error. Since he is both a Christian of the New Covenant of the blood of Jesus Christ and a Gentile, he should agree with the words of Paul, God's appointed apostle to the Gentiles. If Ironhorse were a Jew, then he could be forgiven for reading and interpreting Genesis 12 : 3 in purely patriarchal, Old Testament terms. For thinking that God's promises refer only to the nation of Israel. But since Ironhorse is a Gentile and not a Jew, he should read and interpret the book of Genesis as a Gentile Christian and not as a Jew. In his letters Paul strongly reminded, reprimanded and disciplined the early Gentile churches for their readiness to abandon the new covenant of Grace by going back to the old Jewish covenant of the Law. In a similar way, Ironhorse has abandoned his Christ-centered, gospel understanding of Genesis 12 for a patriarchal, Jewish, Israel-centered one - in clear contradiction to Paul's revealed understanding from God. I therefore strongly advise Ironhorse to admit his error, to withdraw his false conclusion and to bring his understanding into line with that of Paul's. If he fails to do so then he will be preaching a gospel other than that of Jesus Christ and he will be putting himself under God's curse. Thanks, BAA. I therefore strongly advise Ironhorse to admit his error, to withdraw his false conclusion and to bring his understanding into line with that of Paul's. If he fails to do so then he will be preaching a gospel other than that of Jesus Christ and he will be putting himself under God's curse. God's curse? I'm free Free from error, Ironhorse? Free from honesty? Free from integrity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 So... Doesn't matter what the bible actually says then. Homosexuals everywhere rejoice with IH in their freedom as well! If he is free in Christ to do as he pleases, then so are they! Yay freedom!!!!! Woohoo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 2, 2017 Author Share Posted January 2, 2017 So... Doesn't matter what the bible actually says then. Homosexuals everywhere rejoice with IH in their freedom as well! If he is free in Christ to do as he pleases, then so are they! Yay freedom!!!!! Woohoo! Right on the money, Jeff! Here's what the apostle Paul has to say about Christians like Ironhorse abusing their freedom and so causing others to stumble. 1 Corinthians 10 : 23 - 33. 23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others. 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.” 27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. It wasn't beneficial, nor constructive for Ironhorse to claim that Genesis 12 : 3 was exclusively about Israel. By doing this he causes others to stumble in their understanding of God's word. By using his freedom in this harmful way, he is actually abusing it. And his freedom is no protection from God's wrath if he causes other Christians (the church of God) to stumble. Jesus himself said so. (See Mark 9 : 42 - 50 and Luke 17 : 1 - 3) Matthew 18 : 6 - 9 6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. I wonder if Ironhorse is one of those many Christians who believe that they can 'trade in' on their salvation? That they don't have to watch themselves, as Jesus warned in Luke 17 : 3..? That once-saved-is-always-saved, no matter how they behave? No matter how many fellow Christians they harm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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