pratt Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 in the beginning of losing faith in christianity, many topics seemed important. the historicity of jesus, accuracy of bible, evidence put up by josh mcdowell,the controversies and contradictions of passages, the possibilities of global flood, sodom & whatever, trying to justify the happenings in exodus, the stuff put up by hit and run christians and topics like Israel by IH, debunking the whole fucking bible. after so many years, of learning logic and hanging around this forum, i finally deduce that for christian faith to be true, there must be a physical adam, eve and talking snake. any other explanations such as not literal, allegorical or whatever will not do. premise for jesus to save the world from god's wrath, it needs to have physical adam, eve, talking snake and a 6,000 year old earth. that is me. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted November 29, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 29, 2016 in the beginning of losing faith in christianity, many topics seemed important. the historicity of jesus, accuracy of bible, evidence put up by josh mcdowell,the controversies and contradictions of passages, the possibilities of global flood, sodom & whatever, trying to justify the happenings in exodus, the stuff put up by hit and run christians and topics like Israel by IH, debunking the whole fucking bible. after so many years, of learning logic and hanging around this forum, i finally deduce that for christian faith to be true, there must be a physical adam, eve and talking snake. any other explanations such as not literal, allegorical or whatever will not do. premise for jesus to save the world from god's wrath, it needs to have physical adam, eve, talking snake and a 6,000 year old earth. that is me. Same here pratt. It's just so simple to me now. I don't even have to debate anyone. If the first book of Genesis is a fable, which it is and makes noooo sense at all, then the whole book of the bible falls apart for me. Because everything else up to Revelations is based on this first book of the bible. As I have stated many times on Ex-c, the very first question I asked my pastor was ''who stood outside the gates of the 'garden' and documented the whole thing''? It was supposed to be the story of the first two people and how god made them?? WHO was that (3rd) person who watched it all happen? WHO was that (3rd) person outside the gates of the garden who heard the talking serpent? Who saw Eve eat the fruit? WHO saw god make man out of dust? WHO saw god make woman out of man's rib? WHO even heard what their names were? My pastor could never answer me. He said I must believe based on 'faith'. And I really tried hard for many years to believe all of it by 'faith' until faith no longer worked for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOHO Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Same here Margee and Pratt. I also read Josh McDowell - all 700 pages of it - and it had me going. Right up to the end were he admits you just have to have faith. Wait! What! I thought he was going to say something different and enlightening. I had the same experience with my pastor that Margee had. Same response. Different questions. Even the Bible it'self (I have a teaching version that's in American - not English ) and it flately stathes that it does NOT conatin the words of God - just that it was INSPIRED by God. Well then just WHO's words ARE they? I'm thinking mostly this Paul character. And why the hell does God, assuming he/she/it/hey exists, even NEED some murderous kook control freak to speak for him? The whole thing smacks of fraud. - MOHO (Mind Of His Own) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 30, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 30, 2016 Funny enough "my pastor" last night preached on how men anointed of God are inspired by God to bring out the truths in the bible, and that individuals (read average Joe church member) cannot possibly get the revelation correct. This was probably pointed at me due to my coming out and challenging Christian beliefs. Basically anything I say, oh looky here, contradictions there is met with you don't have the revelation to red the word of god. In fact he was extolling the virtues of a bible with contradictions and bits we can't wrap our mind around. Cause you know your mind is enmity to God. I basically said what pratt says: Evolution proves Adam and Eve didn't exist, therefore the entire bible is undermined. Oh boy, then the conspiracy theories come out how about every single scientist in the world is in a big 150 year cover up to destroy Gods word. Arrrhhhhhggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConsiderTheSource Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 RE Josh McDowell.... Grrrrrrrr! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 in the beginning of losing faith in christianity, many topics seemed important. the historicity of jesus, accuracy of bible, evidence put up by josh mcdowell,the controversies and contradictions of passages, the possibilities of global flood, sodom & whatever, trying to justify the happenings in exodus, the stuff put up by hit and run christians and topics like Israel by IH, debunking the whole fucking bible. after so many years, of learning logic and hanging around this forum, i finally deduce that for christian faith to be true, there must be a physical adam, eve and talking snake. any other explanations such as not literal, allegorical or whatever will not do. premise for jesus to save the world from god's wrath, it needs to have physical adam, eve, talking snake and a 6,000 year old earth. that is me. Same here pratt. It's just so simple to me now. I don't even have to debate anyone. If the first book of Genesis is a fable, which it is and makes noooo sense at all, then the whole book of the bible falls apart for me. Because everything else up to Revelations is based on this first book of the bible. As I have stated many times on Ex-c, the very first question I asked my pastor was ''who stood outside the gates of the 'garden' and documented the whole thing''? It was supposed to be the story of the first two people and how god made them?? WHO was that (3rd) person who watched it all happen? WHO was that (3rd) person outside the gates of the garden who heard the talking serpent? Who saw Eve eat the fruit? WHO saw god make man out of dust? WHO saw god make woman out of man's rib? WHO even heard what their names were? My pastor could never answer me. He said I must believe based on 'faith'. And I really tried hard for many years to believe all of it by 'faith' until faith no longer worked for me. Wow, such great questions! Good stuff! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 in the beginning of losing faith in christianity, many topics seemed important. the historicity of jesus, accuracy of bible, evidence put up by josh mcdowell,the controversies and contradictions of passages, the possibilities of global flood, sodom & whatever, trying to justify the happenings in exodus, the stuff put up by hit and run christians and topics like Israel by IH, debunking the whole fucking bible. after so many years, of learning logic and hanging around this forum, i finally deduce that for christian faith to be true, there must be a physical adam, eve and talking snake. any other explanations such as not literal, allegorical or whatever will not do. premise for jesus to save the world from god's wrath, it needs to have physical adam, eve, talking snake and a 6,000 year old earth. that is me. Yup! All great points! And why is God such a vengeful, raging d-bag anyway? Where's that compassion and forgiveness he himself seems to preach about? Goddamn, the guy should listen to some of the stuff he said... For me and faith... Once I really learned what it was, it was easy to divorce. faith fāTH/ noun 1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something. "this restores one's faith in politicians" synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More 2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Yup, fuck that. We're just to believe some shit because someone said it was real? Faith is fucked up. It's not a human virtue. Observing, deducing, questioning and learning are true human virtues. Faith is a tool others use to manipulate others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
older Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 in the beginning of losing faith in christianity, many topics seemed important. the historicity of jesus, accuracy of bible, evidence put up by josh mcdowell,the controversies and contradictions of passages, the possibilities of global flood, sodom & whatever, trying to justify the happenings in exodus, the stuff put up by hit and run christians and topics like Israel by IH, debunking the whole fucking bible. after so many years, of learning logic and hanging around this forum, i finally deduce that for christian faith to be true, there must be a physical adam, eve and talking snake. any other explanations such as not literal, allegorical or whatever will not do. premise for jesus to save the world from god's wrath, it needs to have physical adam, eve, talking snake and a 6,000 year old earth. that is me. You are so right. Religion is like a stone arch. Once you remove the keystone, the arch collapses, and there is no need to deal with specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerenelyBlue Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 I started by researching all that stuff. Funny enough. I mow don't rely on any arguments. I simply believe the idea of having a soul is bullshit. The physical brain does everything. No soul equals no magical hell or heaven. The universe came about throug scientific processes. We came about through evolution. No need for god. There is scientific reasons for a multiverse. Fuck the Christian Bible. Believing by faith is believing by ignorance. Who gives a fuck what's written in the bible? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burny Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 For me it's also very simple. For the same reasons I don't accept the Book of Mormon or the Koran as the sacred words of god, I also don't accept the Bible. Nobody to this day can tell me why I should believe because of their very particular faith, when all other very particular faiths should be ignored and not believed. Why should their "answered prayers" and "miracles" convince me that their god(s) are real, when everyone else's "answered prayers" and "miracles" are not to be trusted as proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 ... As I have stated many times on Ex-c, the very first question I asked my pastor was ''who stood outside the gates of the 'garden' and documented the whole thing''? It was supposed to be the story of the first two people and how god made them?? WHO was that (3rd) person who watched it all happen? WHO was that (3rd) person outside the gates of the garden who heard the talking serpent? Who saw Eve eat the fruit? WHO saw god make man out of dust? WHO saw god make woman out of man's rib? WHO even heard what their names were? My pastor could never answer me. He said I must believe based on 'faith'. And I really tried hard for many years to believe all of it by 'faith' until faith no longer worked for me. It's just like other fiction - the author is the person who has the access to the scenes, events, actions, conversations, etc. Of course, in fiction the author invents these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted December 20, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 20, 2016 ... As I have stated many times on Ex-c, the very first question I asked my pastor was ''who stood outside the gates of the 'garden' and documented the whole thing''? It was supposed to be the story of the first two people and how god made them?? WHO was that (3rd) person who watched it all happen? WHO was that (3rd) person outside the gates of the garden who heard the talking serpent? Who saw Eve eat the fruit? WHO saw god make man out of dust? WHO saw god make woman out of man's rib? WHO even heard what their names were? My pastor could never answer me. He said I must believe based on 'faith'. And I really tried hard for many years to believe all of it by 'faith' until faith no longer worked for me. It's just like other fiction - the author is the person who has the access to the scenes, events, actions, conversations, etc. Of course, in fiction the author invents these things. I know many Christians use the term inspiration (Like under the inspiration of the holy spirit man wrote the bible) to explain how these things were 'known'. Of course its not falsifiable. If someone says well God told the writers what the conversations were etc you can't prove he didn't. You can say that its highly unlikely and illogical, and in the case of the "eyewitness Gospels" fallacious. Funny how these 'eye witness' Gospels had access to events and conversations that they wouldn't have been witness to. Did they go dig up every guard/priest/roman soldier and ask them? Or maybe Jesus relayed the whole story to them? Not that there is any indication of Jesus after his resurrection saying "this and that" happened while I was in Pilates court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 ... As I have stated many times on Ex-c, the very first question I asked my pastor was ''who stood outside the gates of the 'garden' and documented the whole thing''? It was supposed to be the story of the first two people and how god made them?? WHO was that (3rd) person who watched it all happen? WHO was that (3rd) person outside the gates of the garden who heard the talking serpent? Who saw Eve eat the fruit? WHO saw god make man out of dust? WHO saw god make woman out of man's rib? WHO even heard what their names were? My pastor could never answer me. He said I must believe based on 'faith'. And I really tried hard for many years to believe all of it by 'faith' until faith no longer worked for me. It's just like other fiction - the author is the person who has the access to the scenes, events, actions, conversations, etc. Of course, in fiction the author invents these things. I know many Christians use the term inspiration (Like under the inspiration of the holy spirit man wrote the bible) to explain how these things were 'known'. Of course its not falsifiable. If someone says well God told the writers what the conversations were etc you can't prove he didn't. You can say that its highly unlikely and illogical, and in the case of the "eyewitness Gospels" fallacious. Funny how these 'eye witness' Gospels had access to events and conversations that they wouldn't have been witness to. Did they go dig up every guard/priest/roman soldier and ask them? Or maybe Jesus relayed the whole story to them? Not that there is any indication of Jesus after his resurrection saying "this and that" happened while I was in Pilates court. Christians may assert that the text is inspired but they provide no evidence to support that bald claim. They have the burden of proof. They fail to meet it. That ends the discussion right there. I have no obligation to disprove their claim. The fiction comparison/observation is parsimonious, mundane and requires no magic, apologetics or additional fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted December 20, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 20, 2016 Good point sdelsolray. I sometimes get caught up defending a position, when I should be saying, stop attacking my position and support your own proposition with evidence. I find that Christians, instead of saying (For example) the evidence for a 6000 year old earth is thusly, instead resort to, geological time is a conspiracy to do away with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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