Fear Is Driving Me Crazy

[shw11]

hi everyone.

I am currently dealing with the re emerging issue of a fear of hell which i orginally explained in this post - http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/69626-intense-fear-of-hell-the-end-times-please-help/#.WD9JkfmLTIU(i was gong to post again in this thread but apparently its too old or something)

 

i know this conversation has been had a million times on this site and elsewhere. i've read it all and nothing can eradicate this fear. I don't even really know why i'm posting this except of desperation and hope that someone can shed some new light on this topic. i know this will probably annoy some people but i'm not sure what else to do.

 

i wrote my first post about this over a year ago and a lot has changed since then. i'm taking a gap year, i have a place at uni, i've got a job and i really thought i was starting to get my life together and that i had finally gotten over my obsessive anxiety. i can't even tell you how frustrating it is to have this fear come back, i keep having intrusive thoughts about me or people i love going to hell and i feel like i will never overcome the whole 'what if i'm wrong' doubt. 

 

I just want to badly to know how you all managed to reach a state of certainty about the non existence of hell. if anyone has anything that might be helpful i would be beyond appreciative, even though i know that i'm just covering old ground. 

 

 

[LifeCycle]

Why are you not fearful of dragons?

[shw11]

Why are you not fearful of dragons?

yeah... i can't really pretend that i'm being rational. but to be fair there aren't scores of people who believe wholeheartedly in dragons, debate over the specifics of their existence and basically dedicate their entire lives to worshipping them. and there are no scriptures proclaiming that dragons walked among us however many thousands of years ago. i get that this isn't evidence enough to justify a belief in christianity but it is something, enough to send me into panic mode anyway

 

(then again i'm a highly anxious person who tends to worry about pretty much anything that presents itself to me so if i thought hard enough about the existence of dragons i'm pretty sure i could work myself into a panic about them too. )

[rjn]

So, you're a highly anxious person? Perhaps you suffer from some sort of anxiety disorder like OCD or GAD? Ever been in contact with a psychatric professional? They may not be able to alleviate your pain completely, but they could teach you how to deal with the worst brunt of it. 

[LifeCycle]

 

Why are you not fearful of dragons?

yeah... i can't really pretend that i'm being rational. but to be fair there aren't scores of people who believe wholeheartedly in dragons, debate over the specifics of their existence and basically dedicate their entire lives to worshipping them. and there are no scriptures proclaiming that dragons walked among us however many thousands of years ago. i get that this isn't evidence enough to justify a belief in christianity but it is something, enough to send me into panic mode anyway

 

(then again i'm a highly anxious person who tends to worry about pretty much anything that presents itself to me so if i thought hard enough about the existence of dragons i'm pretty sure i could work myself into a panic about them too. )

 

That's a good start but the popularity of a position on a subject does not make it more true than another. That's the Ad Populum Fallacy and if you're going to go that route, than Allah's hell may be the one worth worrying about in the future when the Muslim population surpasses the Christian population of the world.

 

But honestly, there's no real rational reason to fear when you look at the "evidence." It just takes time to escape the mindset especially if much of your Christian walk was motivated by fire and brimstone like preaching or just outright fear. It's both a great and horrible motivator because it works but it hides behind smoke and mirrors... ie bullshit.

[dangitbobby83]

I highly recommend seeing a professional if you are bound by such fear after so long. 

 

If you've read all the responses from past discussions and other things online, then I doubt there is much else we can tell you. You've already admitted it isn't rational - so it's time to seek some help from people who can really do good. You might find it is a purely chemical/physical problem with the brain that needs fixing: something medication and therapy can provide.

[older]

I support the notion of finding someone you can talk to face-to-face and who can help you find strategies, and perhaps even medications, that will help you cope with what you already know are irrational fears. I think everyone has those irrational fears; it's just a question of how we deal with them. Something that might help is some study of epistemology — the study of knowledge. Once you know how to define "truth," it becomes easier to deal with those irrational fears. Taking a philosophy class that covers that might be better than just reading about it — the interaction and discussion can be enlightening.

[Castiel233]

I think the root of the fear of hell is partially based on the fact that the fear is based on something outside of reality.

 

Some one who is scared of flying can avoid planes, someone frightened of sharks can avoid swimming in the ocean. You can take steps to avoid certain fears based in the real world.

 

Fear of hell is a different fish however as it isn't based on objective reality. Now a fear of vampires is also supernatural based and fictional, yet such a fear could be combatted by wearing garlic.

 

The fear of hell is the nastiest aspect of Christian theology and is highly unlikely to be true. Is the hell of Islam real. The hell of any religion. All is based on cruelty and misery.

 

The bible is filled with provable lies and contradiction.

 

Find a hobby that brings you peace, talk to a health advisor and take meds if you need them.

 

The bible has been shown to be false in science and history. Please do not let this book written by strangers ruin your life.

 

Millions have lived and died without ever hearing of that book.

 

Its threats are as empty and hollow as the threats of the Koran.

 

You will get over this. I lived that fear and I never thought I'd overcome it, yet I did.

 

All the best

[shw11]

 Ever been in contact with a psychatric professional? They may not be able to alleviate your pain completely, but they could teach you how to deal with the worst brunt of it. 

yep... its not something that really helped me to be completely honest and not something i want to revisit particularly

 

 

Solution, go get drunk, get laid, have fun. Just don't do anything that puts you or anyone else in any imminent danger.

haha tried that too

 

I know everyone is saying that the fear of hell is completely irrational and I can guess  i kind of agree. I think the thing that I have an issue with is the conviction with which people believe in this concept- and not just gullible people who have never really bothered to examine their own faith but intelligent rational people. like people who have dedicated their whole life to the study of christianity and came to the conclusion that it is the truth. or previously staunch atheists who had some kind of epiphany and converted. or intellectuals with PHDs who still believe in this stuff. how can i just dismiss it when people way more intelligent than me believe it? i know that probably sounds like a dumb argument but this is just not something i want to be wrong about and i feel like every time i try and just forget about it i'm taking some massive gamble

[Castiel233]

The trouble with these very clever Christians, is they may have picked the wrong branch of Christianity......

 

Islam could be correct and the decades of praying to Jesus is all for nowt.

[Castiel233]

To add, yes some clever atheists turn to Jesus, some turn to Islam, some to Buddha. Some very devoted high profile Christians lose their faith and walk away. Charles Templeton is a good example. A belief in the supernatural is not evidence of it being true, no matter how clever the believer.

[shw11]

To add, yes some clever atheists turn to Jesus, some turn to Islam, some to Buddha. Some very devoted high profile Christians lose their faith and walk away. Charles Templeton is a good example. A belief in the supernatural is not evidence of it being true, no matter how clever the believer.

i know and intellectually i agree but the issue i have is the idea of the 'holy spirit' or whatever. that idea that if you don't believe, you can't understand. if you don't believe, of course it seems ridiculous. but if the 'holy spirit' enters you, then it will all make sense. since i've never actually been a christian as i explained in my original post i have never experienced this feeling that so many christians describe. this is a major component my anxiety.

 

i just can't imagine how you could possibly experience this is sense of 'knowing jesus' and not feel that you were kidding yourself, unless the 'holy spirit' is an actual thing. ok i'm probably not making sense here but do you see what I mean? it's such an endless cycle. 

[sdelsolray]

 

To add, yes some clever atheists turn to Jesus, some turn to Islam, some to Buddha. Some very devoted high profile Christians lose their faith and walk away. Charles Templeton is a good example. A belief in the supernatural is not evidence of it being true, no matter how clever the believer.

i know and intellectually i agree but the issue i have is the idea of the 'holy spirit' or whatever. that idea that if you don't believe, you can't understand. if you don't believe, of course it seems ridiculous. but if the 'holy spirit' enters you, then it will all make sense. since i've never actually been a christian as i explained in my original post i have never experienced this feeling that so many christians describe. this is a major component my anxiety.

 

i just can't imagine how you could possibly experience this is sense of 'knowing jesus' and not feel that you were kidding yourself, unless the 'holy spirit' is an actual thing. ok i'm probably not making sense here but do you see what I mean? it's such an endless cycle. 

 

 

 

You underestimate to power of childhood religious indoctrination and a lifetime of religious peer pressure.

[older]

...

 

not just gullible people who have never really bothered to examine their own faith but intelligent rational people. 

...

 

Shw: Are these people really intelligent and rational? These are people who believe that there is a deity that is everywhere, knows everything and can do anything, works in mysterious ways, never speaks to us directly, and has planned everything. He sent himself to earth and then had himself tortured to death in order to appease himself for a curse he put on us because one of our distant ancestors made out of dirt and a rib woman ate fruit off a magical tree after being told to do it by a talking snake.

 

These are intelligent, rational people? Ask them if they believe this because it makes sense or because other people have convinced them that bad things will happen to them if they don't.

 

----

 

Here's one way to deal with the "what if I'm wrong" question — Pascal's Wager — that you should believe just in case. Using myself as an example, I do not believe. I see no evidence to support any notions of a deity, and vast volumes of evidence against it — so much that I am a firm atheist. I have no doubts whatsoever that gods do not exist.

 

Now consider that I've lived a good life. I've given back. I've been a positive influence on the lives of other people (I know because they've told me so). I've contributed to efforts to save lives and improve the living situations of others. I try to follow some of the basic principles of good human behavior: treating others with kindness and respect, advocating for peace, being honest, and keeping my promises. In the unlikely event that there is an afterlife, that should be good enough. Any deity who would treat me poorly in spite of that record is not worth following. Such a deity wants us to forgive. So should he/she/it not also forgive?

 

Meanwhile, according to Christian theology, the ax murderer who chopped his victims to bits and burned their remains in his barbeque, and who repents and begs for forgiveness, and accepts Christ into his life as his savoir, and does this a week before his execution, will be accepted into this alleged heaven.

 

Really?

[ConsiderTheSource]

shw11 I get it.  There are millions of them.  They have hundreds of audio and video channels, and physical locations on every corner.  They speak so clearly and so passionately about this place, this awful nasty place known as "hell".  You are constantly exposed to their passionate appeals.  So many appeals, from so many avenues...it all creates anxiety and stress...and you process it, over and over, trying to find a way out.  

 

How can so many people be so wrong? How can any of this make sense?

 

My way out was when I looked out on a nature setting and thought upon this "What if god is imaginary?  What would that mean for all of these millions of people? Does it explain everything?"   Well, in my individual case, I could feel a lifetime of adult anxiety leave me.  I could sense my mind reprogramming itself as I comprehended all of what "God is imaginary" implies for the behavior of these people, these people who were generating the stress and anxiety within me.

 

Try this.  Go find that nature place and try this.  If it does not work for you, you are only out some moments of your time.  If it does work, well, that would be very good indeed.

[shw11]

thanks everyone for your replies- i genuinely appreciate them a lot

 

one last thing- what do you think of people who have claimed to have had visions/ NDEs and seen some kind of afterlife, whether this be heaven or hell? do you ever find that disconcerting or challenging to your non belief? there have been some fairly horrifying claims and while we could obviously assume that these people are either lying or crazy it still unnerves me to say the least. 

[Geezer]

thanks everyone for your replies- i genuinely appreciate them a lot

 

one last thing- what do you think of people who have claimed to have had visions/ NDEs and seen some kind of afterlife, whether this be heaven or hell? do you ever find that disconcerting or challenging to your non belief? there have been some fairly horrifying claims and while we could obviously assume that these people are either lying or crazy it still unnerves me to say the least.

 

There is a provable scientific explanation for these events that has been reproduced in lab experiments by attaching electrodes to specific areas of the brain. A dying brain or one under enormous stress can produce these anomalies. There is nothing supernatural about these events. Google it if you want more info.

 

Interesting enough all these trips to heaven discribe heaven differently but often similar to what the person believes heaven is like.

[Lilith666]

For me, fear of hell faded with time. At first, when I was 15 and had to go to church thanks to my dad's conviction that making me go to a place I hated would make me want to re-join Christianity, I was terrified because everything there was a reminder that if the religion was true, I was going to hell. Eventually it became a nuisance. Often enraging by having to listen to people's stupidity, but no longer a threat.

How long ago did you de-convert? It may take a few years for the anxiety to fade. If you have a history of anxiety, you might want to see a professional.

 

Really, there's no magical recipe or one right way that anyone can give you to get over the fear. Try focusing on other things: get a hobby, or a job you like better, or visit a new place, to fill your mind with more uplifting thoughts. Many here have talked about reading evidence against Christianity and for the implausibility of hell. Think about it: Thousands of years ago, your ancestors ate some fruit that biblegod told them not to eat, because they were talked into it by the so-called master of lies, whom god couldn't be bothered to keep away from his supposedly precious children, knowing what it would cost them. Then because of this one mistake that took about two minutes and killed nobody, that was actually forbidden because god wanted to test their obedience to him, god kicks them out of their home and sends them into a world of pain and death. Not only they but every single one of their descendants has to suffer in this miserable place until they die. But if they believe that he committed suicide to atone for their mistake that he all but encouraged their ancestors to make in the first place, after death they can go to a perfect place to worship him forever. If they refuse to believe any of the above, they will go to a place of unimaginable pain, where they will also worship him forever as he tortures them, because he's god.

Oh, and he's not dead from committing suicide because he killed his son, who is also him and was on earth because god/the son impregnated the son's human mother. Then the son came back to life. And every year on god's/the son's birthday, everyone who believes in him has to worship him extra hard for the great sacrifice he claims to have made for them.

 

You know how god gets out of the problem that he tortures people for not believing in him? He says you send yourself to hell if you reject his ludicrous story about how he saved you.

In a nutshell, god sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself. I love Christianity. Cracks me up every time.

[Guest]

I think if you understand what human beings are, as evolved bipedal primates, then hell seems like a rather strange invention. 

 

How would this have worked, at one point did god start arbitrarily judging these evolved creatures?  At the point of bipedalism, is there something about walking about two feet which deemed man responsible and accountable up to the degree of eternal punishment?  Or was it perhaps with the evolution of spoken language or perhaps written language?  Is the capacity of man to conceptualize and communicate make him liable for eternal punishment? 

 

Or perhaps with the dawn of the Jewish religion?  No actually, as the ancient Jews didn't actually believe in an afterlife until perhaps the Second Temple Judaic period, and previous to that, believed all mankind had a share in this shadowy existence called Sheol (or they simply thought Sheol=grave). 

 

Hell, like everything else in the universe, evolved from previous ideas and even after the texts of the New Testament were constructed, even more inconsistencies had to be reconciled.  Is hell a place of eternal torment, where their smoke rises for ever and ever as it said in the Book of Revelation?  Or is one's body and soul destroyed in hell as Jesus says in Matthew 10:28?  Do men perish in hell, or have some kind of immortal existence which corresponds with their torment? 

 

The Bible isn't consistent on these matters, neither are Christians throughout history, with Conditionalism (Annihiliationism) on the rise within Evangelical circles even today. 

 

If you understand this, and are still afraid, then I would recommend seeing a professional Psychologist as such fear could be indicative of an anxiety or mood disorder. 

 

Question for you though, when you think of dying, what thoughts come to mind? 

[older]

thanks everyone for your replies- i genuinely appreciate them a lot

 

one last thing- what do you think of people who have claimed to have had visions/ NDEs and seen some kind of afterlife, whether this be heaven or hell? do you ever find that disconcerting or challenging to your non belief? there have been some fairly horrifying claims and while we could obviously assume that these people are either lying or crazy it still unnerves me to say the least. 

Geezer gave a good explanation of the NDEs. As to other visions or hallucinations, we send the worst of those to mental hospitals. The rest get together on Sunday for an hour or so.

[ToHellWithMe]

I just want to badly to know how you all managed to reach a state of certainty about the non existence of hell.

Certainty? There is no such luxury. Hell presumes soul and some cosmic purpose regarding them. With such assumptions, anyone can claim anything and it cannot be proven or verified. Just deal with it.

[violetbutterfly]

Have you read the entire bible? One suggestion is to read the bible, then some books on other religions and cultures for comparison, and then some books on science and cosmology. Then decide what makes the most sense. Once you compare the "facts" in the bible to what we know to be true, it has nothing to stand on.

[rjn]

I am hardly a biblical scholar, but from what I can see, there's actually very little on Hell in the Bible, and what's there is ambigious at best. Most passages that mention Hell in, for instance, the King James Version, are mistranslations of Hades/Sheol. 

[Lilith666]

THWM brings up a good point: there is no way to be certain that hell doesn't exist, any more than it's possible to be certain that fairies aren't stealing your stuff when you think you've misplaced it (people used to believe this, by the way). A while ago we had a member who was obsessed with the idea of hell, refused to believe it's impossible to disprove its existence, and started a plethora of threads demanding absolute proof that Christianity is false, no matter how many times it was explained that you can't prove something isn't true. It was quite sad, actually. And he never thanked anyone for trying to help him, either. Anyway, it's nice to have someone who listens and appreciates what people say

[shw11]

THWM brings up a good point: there is no way to be certain that hell doesn't exist, any more than it's possible to be certain that fairies aren't stealing your stuff when you think you've misplaced it (people used to believe this, by the way). A while ago we had a member who was obsessed with the idea of hell, refused to believe it's impossible to disprove its existence, and started a plethora of threads demanding absolute proof that Christianity is false, no matter how many times it was explained that you can't prove something isn't true. It was quite sad, actually. And he never thanked anyone for trying to help him, either. Anyway, it's nice to have someone who listens and appreciates what people say

yeah no i completely understand the fact that it's impossible to prove a negative. i guess what i'm more hoping for is a way to believe beyond reasonable doubt that christianity is not literally true. but i understand where that guy is coming from as well. i am someone that really has issues accepting uncertainty so i sympathise with that compulsive need to know.  it's something i'm working on. but yeah i really do appreciate all of your responses, they have definitely helped me feel a little bit better about the whole thing