Fear Is Driving Me Crazy

[sdelsolray]

 

THWM brings up a good point: there is no way to be certain that hell doesn't exist, any more than it's possible to be certain that fairies aren't stealing your stuff when you think you've misplaced it (people used to believe this, by the way). A while ago we had a member who was obsessed with the idea of hell, refused to believe it's impossible to disprove its existence, and started a plethora of threads demanding absolute proof that Christianity is false, no matter how many times it was explained that you can't prove something isn't true. It was quite sad, actually. And he never thanked anyone for trying to help him, either. Anyway, it's nice to have someone who listens and appreciates what people say

yeah no i completely understand the fact that it's impossible to prove a negative. i guess what i'm more hoping for is a way to believe beyond reasonable doubt that christianity is not literally true. but i understand where that guy is coming from as well. i am someone that really has issues accepting uncertainty so i sympathise with that compulsive need to know.  it's something i'm working on. but yeah i really do appreciate all of your responses, they have definitely helped me feel a little bit better about the whole thing

 

 

 

Well, if you want to conclude that it is "beyond reasonable doubt that christianity it not literally true" (your words), you will need to spend significant time (hundreds of hours) studying and researching the subject.  Fortunately, many others have already done so and their research and analysis is readily available for your review.  Of course, you should not have a biased and predetermined conclusion before you being your studies.  An open mind is the best mind.  After spending the time, you could conclude differently.

 

Get to work.

[Castiel233]

There are ex Muslims, I'm sure that cannot shake off the fears of their hell and want to be certain that Islam is false and the hell of Allah is not real. They too cannot be given compete reassurance. The world doesn't work that way.

 

It is very very likely that Christianity, Islam and Judaism are false. It is all but certain that at least two,of them are now very displeasing to God. It is very likely that there is no God. Am I certain....no......but confident. How likely is it there is literally an all knowing all seeing being who cannot die and knows the thoughts and actions of 7 billion people 24/7....and the knows the actions of people yet too be born......not very likely.

 

Think of hell sensibly..........a supernatural being is going to bring people back to life who died 800 years ago.........a supernatural being has a book in which it records the names of everyone who has ever lived to check them off.............it is believed that 100 billion people have lived........what are the chances of this book of names being literally true...........about the same as hell.

[ToHellWithMe]

Well, if you want to conclude that it is "beyond reasonable doubt that christianity it not literally true" (your words), you will need to spend significant time (hundreds of hours) studying and researching the subject.

This one reminds me of another point. Taking the time to thoroughly evaluate the proposition before being allowed to give it up is also part of many a salesman's pitch. Giving them a chance like that seems like a fair and reasonable thing to do. Thing is, they have had that discussion many times with other potential customers. Chances are they are good at playing that game.

 

Truth is you don't have to give it much thought. You can dismiss it in seconds as "sorry but your product doesn't sound interesting to me, goodbye". What is more, you can reasonably demand them to give basic respect for that decision of yours. I mean they don't have to support you, but they should stop bothering you when you have made yourself clear.

 

If you still feel like you have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, maybe try to figure out why. Perhaps the answer is a hint toward getting rid of the dilemma altogether.

[rjn]

There are ex Muslims, I'm sure that cannot shake off the fears of their hell and want to be certain that Islam is false and the hell of Allah is not real. They too cannot be given compete reassurance. The world doesn't work that way.

 

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php

 

Some of the testimonies are strikingly similar to the ones here. Same BS really. Ex-muslims are definitely worse off though, since there's an entirely different level of social pressure coming from their families and local community, even among those living in the West. 

[★ Citsonga ★]

Greetings!

 

A lot of good advice has already been given. I thought I would add some further details that hopefully may help you some. Below is an excerpt taken from a letter I wrote to my Christian parents a few years ago. It's a bit lengthy, but it has a lot of relevant information. If you'd like to read the whole letter, which addresses a lot of different issues in the Bible and Christianity, then you can download it from post #13 in the thread in my signature.

 

I certainly wish you the best as you work through this stuff. Anyway, without further ado, here is the portion of my letter dealing with the concept of "Hell":

 

 

The Lake of Fire

 

The Bible says that "the beast" and "false prophet" will be "cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev 19:20), and that "the devil" will also be "cast into the lake of fire and brimstone" and that they "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev 20:10). After that we read that "death and hell" and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life" will be "cast into the lake of fire," which it also calls "the second death" (Rev 20:14-15). Though it doesn't specify here, one would assume that this implies that everyone thrown into this lake of fire would also be tortured forever, just like it says will happen to the beast, false prophet and devil. Granted, Revelation is highly symbolic, so one could argue that this is not meant literally, especially given the reference to a "second death." For the sake of this writing, though, I will treat it literally, as traditional Christians tend to do.

 

As a side note, many confuse "hell" with the eternal "lake of fire." However, as can be seen from the statement that "hell" will be "cast into the lake of fire" (Rev 20:14), they are technically not the same thing in the Bible. "Hell" here is the Greek term "Hades," which was used for the grave, the nether world, the realm of the dead. But, since most people think of "Hell" as the lake of fire, from here on out that will be what I am referring to when I use the capitalized word "Hell" in quotes. So, let's move on and take a closer look at the concept of eternal torture and what the Bible has to say about "Hell."

 

To hear Christians talk, "Hell" is one of the most important topics in Christianity. Indeed, what we supposedly need saving from is "Hell." Yet, if "Hell" is such a hot topic (pun intended), and burning eternally is the final punishment for the wicked, then why is the concept of the lake of fire completely absent from the Old Testament? Sure, the word "hell" is found in the KJV Old Testament, but it is the Hebrew word "Sheol," which means the grave, the underworld, the abode of the dead, a pit. Though there are several places where the Old Testament refers to "fire" symbolically, there is no place in it that says anything about eternal torture in fire (when preachers use Old Testament verses to prove "Hell," a quick look at the context always reveals that they mean something else).

 

In the Old Testament, the punishment for wickedness is said to be death (Eze 3:18-19; 18:20,24; 33:8-14; Psalm 37:20; Prov 2:22). Beyond that, Isaiah says, "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise" (Isa 26:14). Daniel contradicts that by saying, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2), but though it doesn't fit with most of what we see in the Old Testament, even this verse doesn't say anything about torture.

 

There is a significant Old Testament verse to mention, though. Jeremiah says, "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter" (Jer 19:6). In this verse, "The valley of the son of Hinnom" in Hebrew is "gay ben Hinnom," or "gay Hinnom" ("The valley of Hinnom") for short, and is the basis of a later Greek word "Gehenna" that referred to a valley south of Jerusalem where they reportedly burned trash, dead animals and at times the corpses of executed criminals. This "Gehenna" is translated "hell" in the New Testament.

 

So, for clarification, there are two Greek words commonly translated "hell" in the New Testament. "Hades," as mentioned previously, refers to the grave or the netherworld. "Gehenna," on the other hand, was the city dump where refuse was burned. (The Greek word "tartaroo" is also translated "hell," but it's only used once in the Bible and its meaning is comparable to "Hades.") Now let's look at a few uses of "Gehenna."

 

When we read, "Whosever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (Matt 5:22), that "hell fire" is referring to the burning dump south of Jerusalem. So is the statement, "It is profitable for thee that one of thy members (body parts) should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" (Matt 5:29-30). When we read, "Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell" (Luke 12:5), that is again using the burning city dump for imagery.

 

In addition we read, "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43-44). This is an often cited passage about "Hell," but let's dig deeper. Not only is this using the imagery of "Gehenna" discussed above, but it is based on an Old Testament quote that says, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24).  What is being talked about here is clearly not eternal torture, but simply mounting corpses. The worm not dying out is meant in reference to constantly having rotting corpses to eat on. Whatever "fire" may be referring to here, it is clearly not depicting the "Hell" that Christianity teaches.

 

Again, if "Hell" was such an important topic, then why would God avoid making mention of it throughout the entire Old Testament? Why repeatedly warn of death as punishment if eternal torture was really the punishment? With the complete absence of "Hell" in the Old Testament, and the idea growing out of the imagery of a burning city dump south of Jerusalem called the Valley of Hinnom in the New Testament, isn't it quite clear that "Hell" is merely a doctrine that evolved over time?

 

Beyond that, what about the ethics of "Hell"? How can justice be served by inflicting infinite torture as punishment for finite infractions? How is being burned forever a befitting discipline for mere mortals? What loving father would ever do such a thing? Would any good judge ever issue such an unfair sentence?

 

Jesus supposedly said that "whosever believeth" in God's "only begotten Son" will "have everlasting life," and that "he that believeth not is condemned" (John 3:16,18). In Christian theology, that condemnation is "Hell." However, what about all the people who die having never heard about Jesus? What about people raised in different cultures far removed from Christianity, those who are indoctrinated with other views (through no fault of their own) to the point that that they cannot believe Christianity when presented with it? What about the many, many people throughout the ages who simply never had the opportunity to believe in Jesus?

 

Some Christians try to weasel out of that dilemma by suggesting that God is just and will deal fairly with those other people. They may even cite the judgment based on deeds that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 25:31-46. While that may seem to be a noble thought, it is flat-out contradicted by the very quote from Jesus listed above, that "he that believeth not is condemned" (John 3:18). If one doesn't believe, then he's condemned, with no recourse. Besides, there are other logical problems with this argument. Since it indicates that belief in Jesus really isn't necessary for salvation, then what's the point in evangelizing and sending out missionaries? That's commanded in the Bible, of course, but it would be rather pointless if it was true that God would judge everyone justly anyway and that believing in Jesus really isn't necessary for salvation!

 

In addition, what about other people, such as myself, who know the story of Jesus quite well but study Christianity and honestly conclude that it is without merit? With regard to us, as well as the aforementioned people who never heard of Jesus or who were already indoctrinated with another religious view, how could a loving God condemn such people to eternal agony when God himself has refused to show himself? If the all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God of evangelical Christianity existed and wanted to have a relationship with every person, then there would be no question that he is real and Christianity is true because he would make it clear! Yet the majority of people in the world have not been convinced of such. Where is this Christian God who is supposedly reaching out to everyone?

 

Another common Christian response is to bring up the quote, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20). Thus, it is argued, nobody has an excuse for not knowing, because "the creation" around us is proof. But is it really? If this verse was true and the natural world we see clearly depicted the Christian God, then everyone who looks at nature would automatically be convinced of the Christian God! Yet, throughout the world there are varying cultures with different religious views, and many of those people look at the exact same nature and see evidence of their gods! And other people look at nature and see no evidence of any god at all! How could this be if "creation" was so clear regarding the Christian God? Obviously, this argument from "creation" is simply false.

 

Think about this. You were raised in a Christian culture that convinced you that Christianity is true, but in the same way people raised in a Muslim culture are convinced that Islam is true, and people raised in a Hindu culture are convinced that Hinduism is true, and so on and so forth. The fact is that people's religious beliefs are primarily dependent upon demographics instead of logic, reason and indisputable evidence.

 

You cannot believe Islam to be true because you were programmed to believe Christianity. But the opposite is also true: Those who are programmed to believe Islam simply cannot believe Christianity. Put yourself in their shoes. What if you had been raised and indoctrinated with Islam, and therefore you could not believe Christianity? That would be no fault of your own; it would simply be the result of being raised in that culture. Would it then be fair to torture you in "Hell" forever and ever and ever, with no mercy and no relief, simply because you did not believe something that you had no ability to believe? Do you not see the absurdity and injustice in that? Do you really believe that a righteous, loving God would do that to his creation?

 

You've heard about "cruel and unusual punishment." Indeed, when someone commits a crime, we expect them to be punished, but we expect the punishment to be in accordance with the crime. However, how could any criminal deserve being tortured forever and ever and ever? We are mere mortals with a very limited life-span, so how could anything one does be worthy of unending agony? Such torture would be "cruel and unusual punishment"! And, again, the idea of issuing such punishment for a lack of belief by those who can't believe is even more problematic.

 

Clearly, any God who would torture people like that would have to be sadistic and unjust, because only a sadistic monster could be so cruel! To call any such God "good" is ridiculous, and is an insult to all that is good.

 

Given that the unjust nature of the doctrine of "Hell" is incompatible with the idea of a loving and just God, and given the way the Christian doctrine of "Hell" evolved out of the imagery of a burning city dump outside Jerusalem, it becomes quite clear that "Hell" is not something revealed by God, but merely a morbid myth that developed over time and became useful for scaring people throughout the ages.

[Ellinas]

As I think I've said elsewhere, the approach I found most helpful was to work out why I believed Christianity to be bullshit, reduce that to some easily remembered bullet points and repeat it like a mantra every time the fear strikes.  Reminding yourself why the religion cannot be true is a good way to combat fear of its' threats.

[Lilith666]

Jesus said people deserve to burn for calling each other names. He sounds like a sadistic kindergarten teacher.

[Castiel233]

Ultimately, searching for complete reassurance is not healthy. I'd let it go. The chances that God is real is low, that is enough for me.

 

However as I have posted on ex-c before, if you truly cannot shake the fear of hell off, pray to God and ask in the name of Jesus to let you and all those you care about into heaven. The bible says such prayers will be answered. Then leave the rest of it well, well alone.

 

Constantly searching for answers and approval from invisible brings cannot bring anyone peace of mind

[TABA]

 

As I think I've said elsewhere, the approach I found most helpful was to work out why I believed Christianity to be bullshit, reduce that to some easily remembered bullet points and repeat it like a mantra every time the fear strikes.  Reminding yourself why the religion cannot be true is a good way to combat fear of its' threats.

I like Ellinas's approach. For me the 'bullet point' that works best is this: if there is a loving, omnipotent god who really cares what we think about him, he has done a really crappy job of communicating with us, writing a holy book that is a mess of contradictions and whose key points have been given different interpretations by the myriad of sects and denominations. That's all it takes for me to remind myself it's bogus.

[midniterider]

hi everyone.

I am currently dealing with the re emerging issue of a fear of hell which i orginally explained in this post - http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/69626-intense-fear-of-hell-the-end-times-please-help/#.WD9JkfmLTIU(i was gong to post again in this thread but apparently its too old or something)

 

i know this conversation has been had a million times on this site and elsewhere. i've read it all and nothing can eradicate this fear. I don't even really know why i'm posting this except of desperation and hope that someone can shed some new light on this topic. i know this will probably annoy some people but i'm not sure what else to do.

 

i wrote my first post about this over a year ago and a lot has changed since then. i'm taking a gap year, i have a place at uni, i've got a job and i really thought i was starting to get my life together and that i had finally gotten over my obsessive anxiety. i can't even tell you how frustrating it is to have this fear come back, i keep having intrusive thoughts about me or people i love going to hell and i feel like i will never overcome the whole 'what if i'm wrong' doubt. 

 

I just want to badly to know how you all managed to reach a state of certainty about the non existence of hell. if anyone has anything that might be helpful i would be beyond appreciative, even though i know that i'm just covering old ground. 

 

Sounds like the core issue may be obsession and anxiety. Hell could just be a focal point for that. Seems to me if you can overcome the obsessive thoughts, Hell won't be a big deal. 

 

I was indoctrinated into Christianity after 30 some years of agnostic life so I never had Hell deeply ingrained in my head. I had a foundation of non-belief to fall back on after I dumped Christianity. That foundation did not include Hell. 

 

I do have bouts of fear and anxiety regarding other imaginings. Try laughing at fear. Laugh at Hell. Laughter destroys fear.

[midniterider]

thanks everyone for your replies- i genuinely appreciate them a lot

 

one last thing- what do you think of people who have claimed to have had visions/ NDEs and seen some kind of afterlife, whether this be heaven or hell? do you ever find that disconcerting or challenging to your non belief? there have been some fairly horrifying claims and while we could obviously assume that these people are either lying or crazy it still unnerves me to say the least. 

 

I'm not sure what an NDE indicates, really. Does it point to an actual afterlife? I don't know. Our beings create dream worlds with full sensory experience. Our beings may also create this waking reality, complete with skeptics and materialists.  

[LogicalFallacy]

On NDE: Based on evidence of an extremely complex brain and the effects it can produce I would say NDE's are 'simply' the result of this complex organ under certain circumstances.

 

However it might be a better question for a neurologist?

[Jedah]

One thing that can help is the realization of just how absurd pascals wager is.

 

You are probably still feeling afraid because of that irrational, but very real "What if" question in the back of your mind. What if you really are just throwing salvation away? What do you have to gain from atheism, when it seems like you could only lose? Fuck! Should have told Morpheus to shove that blue pill up his ass.

 

Actually, not really.

 

The truth is no matter what you believe, you are losing somewhere and gaining elsewhere. Christianity isn't the only religion to place a doom-trigger for the crime of non belief. It's actually a pretty effective form of brainwashing, so it's legitimately everywhere.  If God really does exist, there is simply no way he could be so foolish as to design the "true"  religion to fit the same psychological manipulation tactics seen in the dreams of man.

 

Punishment for non belief is really just punishment for having free will. It's an act of human arrogance in an attempt to limit others ability to think for themselves. If you pay attention, you will start to notice this sort of manipulation all around us. Not just in religion, but almost all cultish ideologies threaten some form of blemish for rejecting them.

[shw11]

hi again everyone! ok so all your replies have been really informative and reassuring and i can't even tell you how much i appreciate your help.

 

one more thing- what is your opinion on not NDEs per se but these 'hell experiences', like people who were clinically dead for however long and apparently went to hell and came back. there was one i (accidently) ended up seeing about a guy who overdosed on a bunch of drugs, technically 'died' for half an hour and said that he was in hell for that time. obviously the skeptic in me would say that this was just a hallucination or something due to the fact that he was so drugged up, or that he was just making it up- but the guy seemed genuinely traumatised by this experience and said that he was 'burning for 30 minutes'. assuming he wasn't lying, how can an experience that intense possibly be psychosomatic, and how can someone have any kind of scientifically explicable hallucination when they are technically dead? there are a whole load of these testimonies as well- there's a whole youtube channel called HELL TESTIMONIES (capatalised to make it just that little but more intimidating presumably). 

 

this is the one part of the whole thing that i having trouble rationalising. like, are all these people lying? and they all crazy? should we just dismiss them? 

 

i don't know if anyone has any explanations for this, or if anyone knows of any of these 'experiences' that don't align with christian theology. 

 

sorry, i know i sound paranoid and ridiculous. i just want to do everything i can do get rid of this stupid fear and move on with my life

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hi shw11, I don't have citations at my fingertips now, but there are many accounts/stories from ancient Greece and Rome of people who had forms of NDEs. What those people are reported to have said is consistent with the religion and mythology in which they were raised.

[TABA]

In a separate post, I recommended a book of atheist essays that is available as a free Kindle download.  One of the things I like about this book is that each essay has a link to the original article on the Atheist Republic website.  I think one of the essays on Hell might be helpful to many ex-Christians.  It talks about how the concept of Hell was a Christian (but not Jewish) idea that was imported from elsewhere.
You can read it here:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/rob-sharples/history-hell

[Lilith666]

Reply to post #40 by shw11 about NDE and hell: People experience all sorts of intense things. People in pagan religions have claimed to experience demon/spirit possession and have these spirits talk through them. How could they possibly have felt something so forceful if it wasn't real? But obviously, pagans and Christians can't both be right. Religious members are more likely to experience this type of thing if they live in a culture where it is expected or honored. ficino is correct - what people feel corresponds to the area in which they were raised. When did you last hear of a pagan who had never heard of Jesus in his life out of the blue seeing visions of him and hearing commands to save people from hell, or a Christian suddenly discovering that some obscure voodoo religion is actually the right way?

[SerenelyBlue]

There is no soul to go to Hell. Modern science shows that the physical brain is what we are. The brain controls what you do, think, and feel. There is no magical soul floating around. Once the brain stops working you are no more. There is no magical hell or heaven.

[florduh]

A fear of Hell due to indoctrination (brainwashing) after you know better isn't a religious issue. It is an irrational fear, a phobia. Phobias can be professionally addressed with great success, so seek some professional help.

[midniterider]

hi again everyone! ok so all your replies have been really informative and reassuring and i can't even tell you how much i appreciate your help.

 

one more thing- what is your opinion on not NDEs per se but these 'hell experiences', like people who were clinically dead for however long and apparently went to hell and came back. there was one i (accidently) ended up seeing about a guy who overdosed on a bunch of drugs, technically 'died' for half an hour and said that he was in hell for that time. obviously the skeptic in me would say that this was just a hallucination or something due to the fact that he was so drugged up, or that he was just making it up- but the guy seemed genuinely traumatised by this experience and said that he was 'burning for 30 minutes'. assuming he wasn't lying, how can an experience that intense possibly be psychosomatic, and how can someone have any kind of scientifically explicable hallucination when they are technically dead? there are a whole load of these testimonies as well- there's a whole youtube channel called HELL TESTIMONIES (capatalised to make it just that little but more intimidating presumably). 

 

The mind seems to be able to create whole, believable (at the time) sensory experiences that simply evaporate as this waking reality returns. The argument in favor of materialism might say that the guy had a nightmare right before his brain function stopped and then he remembered it after he was revived. My other argument would be that people are full of shit, some like to get attention, some are mentally ill. If one is drugged up then the drugs could be giving him a bad trip, so recalling what actually happened and when in waking reality could have been distorted as well.

 

this is the one part of the whole thing that i having trouble rationalising. like, are all these people lying? and they all crazy? should we just dismiss them? 

 

Two billion people believe in an invisible imaginary friend named Jesus. They scoff at other popular yet imaginary friends like Allah, Hindu gods, pagan gods, Norse gods, etc. A gaggle of celebrities are Scientologists. Should we just dismiss Allah, Ganesha, The Morrigan, Thor, Xenu? A lot of people believe in these gods. Are they all crazy? 

 

Maybe the Hell stories are a bit embellished. A 30 minute hallucination or NDE isn't exactly rock solid evidence of hell. I think what you see people doing mostly in life is rather indicative of what reality actually is about. How much time do the majority of Christians spend praying to Jesus to stay out of hell vs how many hours do they put in at work? There doesn't seem to be a mad scramble by 100% of the population to prepare for the Jesuspocalypse ... but there is a mad scramble by everyone for daily survival, i.e. food, shelter, clothing, high speed internet, etc. Religion is what some people do in their spare time/off hours.

 

i don't know if anyone has any explanations for this, or if anyone knows of any of these 'experiences' that don't align with christian theology. 

 

The advent of self publishing ability on the internet has spawned a glut of self published bullshit from dumbasses. Why do you choose to narrow your bullshit belief focus just to Hell? There is a wide-ranging plethora of bullshit out there to stress about. (haha)

 

sorry, i know i sound paranoid and ridiculous. i just want to do everything i can do get rid of this stupid fear and move on with my life

 

Sorry you are dealing with this. Maybe a psychologist could help.