Shroud Of-- Please Stop

[Diddlyboop]

I'm really sorry about this, guys. I'm sure you've been over it a thousand times by now or something, but that's why I'm posting here. I really want this thing thoroughly trashed and debunked. I don't know why, but even after my deconversion the fear of it being real and that = hell being real has just been destroying me. Stupid, I know, but fear is never rational and indoctrination from childhood is awful. I know parents were probably taught about hell as kids, but still -- don't teach that to your kids. Nothing short of abusive and traumatizing!

 

Regardless I won't go into my personal story too much. I just want this thing trashed and debunked with literally no hope of recovery. I didn't even know the thing existed until I began to deconvert, and yet after that my anxiety began to spike up again.

 

I read about the carbon dating. I know about the complex weave that wasn't known to exist at the time of Jebus. And yet it still scares me!

 

I saw the video of Matt Dillahunty conversing with a Christian over the shroud, and said Christian was listing all sorts of things on the shroud that apparently "proved" authenticity.

 

Another debate over the shroud on Amazon with Christians freaking out over apparently AB- blood being on it. Residue that apparently could only be from a Jerusalem tomb. 13 specific qualities that all recreations apparently didn't match. It scares me, scares me, scares me -- no matter how stupid, it scares me so much and hasn't left me alone.

 

So even though I know it's gotta be fake and the answer has NEVER been "therefore Gawd", I still want it so thoroughly debunked there's no wiggle room left for my brain to keep scaring me.

 

Sorry, guys...

[LogicalFallacy]

Let me ask you: Lets assume that the shroud is real, lets assume it actually was from a crucified Jesus. Does this necessarily mean that Jesus was the son of God, that he actually rose from the dead?

 

Now, I'll try not to be too harsh because I know where your anxiety brain is coming from... I have one to! Its a pain in the royal backside! However, my advice is to learn to accept there are some things we don't know, and may never know, and that nothing can debunked to the point of no wriggle room. If you are a flat earther, it doesn't matter how much a person "proves" the earth is a sphere, you still believe the earth is flat. So its got to do with acceptance and the most likely explanation. And based on all we understand, and evidence available, how likely is it that Jesus (If he existed) was the son of god, and rose from the dead?

 

You can tear apart the Gospels from their first verses. So I find I don't have to worry about shrouds, crucifixion pieces, Mary's well, Noah's ark, Egyptian chariot wheels. People will make up stuff to suit their belief no matter what.

 

If scientists came out tomorrow, and said we have found how life started from chemicals, we have solved abiogenesis, Christians would still invoke God, and ask for how the big bang began. If they solved that, they would still say but God. Why? Human nature and wiring of the brain.

 

Let me ask another question: Are you worried about the Hindu Gods being real and judging you? Why not? Do you know you can see these gods 'drinking milk' on youtube. I have seen it. Millions of Hindus witnessed it, in our modern day! Does it make the Hindu gods real? No, it simply shows humans will believe what they want to believe.

[Vigile]

I stood in line and saw the shroud when I lived in Turin. It's only on display once every 10 years or so to protect it from the light. If it's real, Jesus was only 4' tall. 

[older]

Hi Diddlyboop:

 

Welcome.

 

How long have you been deconverted? It takes time to shake off all the baggage that surrounds religious belief.

 

What you are dealing with is not the shroud but fear. Fear is the basis for religion. Fear of the unknown, fear of things over which we have no control, fear of things we don't understand. Once you discover that it's OK not to know, or to have complete control, your fear will go away and the shroud will be completely irrelevant.

 

I believe that fear is an evolutionary trait. In order to survive in the jungle every animal needs some element of fear. Thus we have evolved with that trait and many people deal with it through religion.

 

I think getting through this isn't really about debunking religion, it's about understanding the thought processes that give rise to religion.

 

I think a place to start is to understand how we know something is true. Here's another Dellahunty video you might enjoy. It completely demolishes any rationale for religious belief. Once that rationale is gone, there is no need to consider any of the details within something that can't be justified.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj28OkKshTk

[Thurisaz]

My personal favorite point:

 

Look at the head in this supposed impression on the shroud. See how the hair falls freely down onto the shoulders? Despite the body surely having lied down during it all? That alone is proof already that it can't be a trace of a genuinely buried body.

[Diddlyboop]

I'm really sorry about this, guys. It definitely is mostly fear I'm dealing with, but for whatever reason since the shroud was introduced it's freaked me out.

 

Not to mention that my family keeps bringing it up as well to reconvert me--

 

My de-conversion started in June. It's been a rough half a year.

[LogicalFallacy]

No need to be sorry, Ex-C is here exactaly to help people like you, and we are here to help.

 

Hmm 6 months, about the same time as me. I totally get you about the pressure and the fear. I have had sleepless nights, panic attacks, etc.

 

However, fear makes you irrational, and if you are feeling fear there is no genuine conversion, simply psychological pressure from others to get you to agree with them.

 

Let me give you some examples:

 

"If you aren't careful Satan will deceive you and you won't know it"

"You'll end up like everyone else in the world, drinking, drugs, and wanton sex"

"God will judge you and you'll go to hell"

 

The variations of this are endless, but they all lack one thing and all have another: That is they lack love, and they are all fear based. How do you keep the masses in line? Fear. How do you get masses to give up their freedoms willingly? Fear. How do you keep people in church paying tithes? Fear.

 

Are you family young earth creationists (6000 years) or Old earth creationists, or simply believe that god kick started like way back in the eons?

 

Maybe its a good question to find the root of your fear. Are you afraid the shroud might be real, or are you really afraid that you might go to hell if Christianity is right?

 

If so, ask yourself why you are not afraid of Allah's hell, Hades underworld, and all the other versions of a nasty place after death that you can find littered in human history. 

[pratt]

there used to be thousand and one "purported" findings to show about validity of the bible, the people and the stories that frightened me, however if the bible is NOT 100% the word of god, these findings and purported supporting whatever parts of the bible is of ABSOLUTELY ZERO significance

[Diddlyboop]

Thankfully, my family knows nothing of creationism. I didn't even know there was such a thing growing up, I always knew evolution was how things worked and just figured that's how God managed things. I think that's how the rest of my family are (but my mom legit believes giants lived back in the days the Old Testament was written).

 

So I've never been brainwashed in that sense, however, the fear tactics were largely emphasized when I was growing up. One church put on a show about what happens if you don't accept Jebus, another constantly had brimstone sermons saying God would announce your every sinful action and thought to all the other souls before punishing you (loving? Forgiving? What??) and then ANOTHER church was all about hippie lovey God but still sometimes warned of hell.

 

So basically, my irrational fear is shroud is real = Jebus is real = Christianity in whatever of it's flavors is real = I'm gonna burn.

 

Stupid, I know, but that's how it is. I was feeling so good and comfortable in my decision until I learned about the magic Italian table cloth... :/

[Vigile]

If the shroud were real, what exactly does that prove? It's a logical leap of unreasonable proportions to assume the existence of a historical jess proves any claim beyond his existence.

[LogicalFallacy]

So basically, my irrational fear is shroud is real = Jebus is real = Christianity in whatever of it's flavors is real = I'm gonna burn.

 

Stupid, I know, but that's how it is. I was feeling so good and comfortable in my decision until I learned about the magic Italian table cloth... :/

 

It's not stupid, and as you know its (fear) very real... well apart from the fact that fear only exists in your mind.

 

I agree with Vigile.

 

Lets say the shroud is real (as in it did come from a tomb 2000 years ago), lets say it even has blood on it. How would anyone know it was Jesus blood? How would they know that THAT was Jesus tomb? There are at least 3 tombs I have heard of. Christians require leaps in logic, that actually require blind un-thinking faith.

 

You know the city of Nazareth that Jesus grew up in? There's is scant evidence it even existed at the supposed time of Jesus.

 

So if shroud is real (i.e. actually wrapped Jesus up) ... well there is no way to prove that beyond reasonable doubt. You have to go from we found this shroud in this tomb straight to therefore Jesus.

 

And to quote Ken Humphreys: Its not history, its not real, its just more rubbish from the new testament. 

 

I'm going to offer some more advice: You will run across things that Christians say "Absolutely prove God exists, Jesus exists etc". So you need to find a method about how you determine what is true and what you will accept. For me its been largely based on critical thinking and the scientific method. Is there reasonable evidence, how likely is it, what are other bits of evidence surrounding it?

 

A shroud is not evidence, there is no way to reasonably link it back to Jesus. You need someones say so and a massive lead in faith, and if you are invoking faith then there is not sufficient evidence.

[rjn]

I stood in line and saw the shroud when I lived in Turin. It's only on display once every 10 years or so to protect it from the light. If it's real, Jesus was only 4' tall. 

 

LOL!

 

Tolkien always said his books were resting on a Christian base. This revelation that you just shared with us makes me see The Hobbit in a totally new light!

[♦ ficino ♦]

It's been a while since I looked into the Shroud issues, but as I recall, the scientific take is that it is a fake.

 

In any case, I think there is a type of religious person who is attracted by the idea that s/he has penetrated deep mysteries and has received the key to unlocking a hidden system. I think this is not far from the mentality that comes up with dates for the fulfillment of prophecy. The people who push the Shroud and other mysteries are attracted by the idea that they've received hidden knowledge that most people are blind to.

 

But if all that's true, what is it saying about the God they worship? If God is going to fry people forever for making the wrong choices, and if knowledge about that God is vital to each person's salvation, why does that God keep playing hide and seek? Why was the whole resurrection of Jesus hidden from everyone except a small group of people who already wanted to believe? After all, it's not we who are the omniscient and omnipotent ones around here. I don't play hiding games like this with my cat and then punish her for not knowing I'm off in some other state sending coded messages through intermediaries. 

 

So I don't buy the whole "hidden message from God that only now have we decoded" industry.

[Diddlyboop]

@ficino Sorry, on mobile, dunno how to quote messages on this thing.

 

Regardless-

 

Though this thing has been wracking my brain and scaring me up over nothing, I kept coming across a similar thought.

 

"'Kay, so God exists because shroud. So you mean to tell me the only evidence he left of his son's being here is a dirty cloth... that has been dated to have been weaved centuries later and has an unfamiliar weave to the time period said son lived... and is apparently 4' tall, that's rough...

 

And all the while, everything else is essentially indistinguishable from God's nonexistence?"

 

And yet with the "points" people bring up it still scares the hell out of me. Ugh.

[florduh]

Paint your face. Wrap a cloth around it to get an impression. Look at what you get by doing that.

[♦ ficino ♦]

@ficino Sorry, on mobile, dunno how to quote messages on this thing.

 

Regardless-

 

Though this thing has been wracking my brain and scaring me up over nothing, I kept coming across a similar thought.

 

"'Kay, so God exists because shroud. So you mean to tell me the only evidence he left of his son's being here is a dirty cloth... that has been dated to have been weaved centuries later and has an unfamiliar weave to the time period said son lived... and is apparently 4' tall, that's rough...

 

And all the while, everything else is essentially indistinguishable from God's nonexistence?"

 

 

Agreed. The Resurrection should have been the most STUPENDOUS and IMPORTANT event in all of human history. Engineered by a totally omniscient and omnipotent God.

 

And yet, not even the Gospels agree on major elements of the story. While at the same time, the whole event was supposedly secret except for a small group who had a major psychological need to believe. What was Jesus scared of, after he rose with his glorified body, that he had to hide out for 40 days? He was afraid the Romans would arrest him AGAIN?

 

And then when the Holy Spirit was supposedly poured out on Pentecost, all Jerusalem was in awe, reports of Jesus' reappearances were spreading ... where were the Romans then? "Oh, the dude we crucified as a revolutionary is now alive and walking around again, and his followers are attracting thousands of converts? Whatever, pass that wine jug over here, will ya, Cornelia?"

 

"Pilate, sir, here are two soldiers who were stationed at the tomb."

 

All right, you clowns, what happened to the stiff?

 

We, we, er, we fell asleep on guard duty and his disciples stole the body.

 

You fell asleep on guard duty? [continue from here with cast of Monty Python]

[Diddlyboop]

I knooow... there was this other Christian who claimed there was an experiment done on a sweaty dude to see if it would make a similar impression to that on the shroud.

 

According to them it did. I never saw pics or anything but I'm doubting there were no wrinkles or distortion in spite of what they said...

[Vigile]

You're scared because you have been indoctrinated. It will wear off with time and reading. Many of us have been there. It gets better.

[rjn]

You're scared because you have been indoctrinated. It will wear off with time and reading. Many of us have been there. It gets better.

 

I second this. Eventually, you'll even learn to accept the feelings of uncertainty. 

[Vigile]

I knooow... there was this other Christian who claimed there was an experiment done on a sweaty dude to see if it would make a similar impression to that on the shroud.

According to them it did. I never saw pics or anything but I'm doubting there were no wrinkles or distortion in spite of what they said...

there's always some bozo with a claim. If you take them all at face value, you'll stay stuck in the hamster wheel.

[Shinzon]

I have forgetten most everything i have read about the shroud if that helps to mention. But immediately thinking about it, lets assume for the sake of arguement it cant be replicated. Does it then follow that all the stuff that is wrong with christianity becomes true because of one little bit of evidence, or would the miracle of the shroud also have to explain everything else wrong with christianity plus the shroud? Part of a whole cant prove a whole, or to put it another way its the composition fallacy.

[Diddlyboop]

Thanks, guys. I know this is probably a pain but I promise you're helping me.

 

At least I'm not alone in this. That was one of my biggest realizations while I was breaking out -- there are others just like me. ;u;

[florduh]

No, Ms. Boop, you are not alone!

[LogicalFallacy]

 

You're scared because you have been indoctrinated. It will wear off with time and reading. Many of us have been there. It gets better.

 

I second this. Eventually, you'll even learn to accept the feelings of uncertainty.

 

I third both of these quotes. Vigile and rjn are correct.

 

Perhaps researching the psychological effects of indoctrination would help you to understand the effects indoctrination has on you?

[RogueScholar]

I'm really sorry about this, guys. I'm sure you've been over it a thousand times by now or something, but that's why I'm posting here. I really want this thing thoroughly trashed and debunked. I don't know why, but even after my deconversion the fear of it being real and that = hell being real has just been destroying me. Stupid, I know, but fear is never rational and indoctrination from childhood is awful. I know parents were probably taught about hell as kids, but still -- don't teach that to your kids. Nothing short of abusive and traumatizing!

 

Regardless I won't go into my personal story too much. I just want this thing trashed and debunked with literally no hope of recovery. I didn't even know the thing existed until I began to deconvert, and yet after that my anxiety began to spike up again.

 

I read about the carbon dating. I know about the complex weave that wasn't known to exist at the time of Jebus. And yet it still scares me!

 

I saw the video of Matt Dillahunty conversing with a Christian over the shroud, and said Christian was listing all sorts of things on the shroud that apparently "proved" authenticity.

 

Another debate over the shroud on Amazon with Christians freaking out over apparently AB- blood being on it. Residue that apparently could only be from a Jerusalem tomb. 13 specific qualities that all recreations apparently didn't match. It scares me, scares me, scares me -- no matter how stupid, it scares me so much and hasn't left me alone.

 

So even though I know it's gotta be fake and the answer has NEVER been "therefore Gawd", I still want it so thoroughly debunked there's no wiggle room left for my brain to keep scaring me.

 

Sorry, guys...

I'm not sure what you are looking for, but can we agree on some basic assumptions. When confronted with multiple hypotheses the one supported by multiple lines of evidence from different sources is the best. Does that seem reasonable? You see in science it's not about absolute "proof." It's about which model is the best representation of the shared universe most of us exist in. We can certainly go deep into ontological arguments and defining "reality," but I think we can gloss over all of that if you agree with the basic assumption put forth above.

 

So, it seems you need a little help when it comes to sorting through the various shroud of Turin hypotheses? Well, where do multiple lines of evidence point?

 

1. Radiocarbon dating has placed the age to basically the 13th-14th century. This has been debated but as I recall, three groups in different countries tested the shroud with results that were very close. Additionally, common confounders and sources of error such as contamination have been accounted for and do not appear to have played a significant role.

 

2. Church documentation indicates the shroud was first exhibited in the middle 1300's, matching the radiocarbon dating results. So, we have two completely independent lines of evidence that match up.

 

3. We have samples of shrouds from priests and high born folks from around the time that Jesus was supposedly crucified and as you already stated, things don't match up.

 

4. It's sketchy to use biblical literature, but is the shroud described in the biblical literature? As far as I know the Catholic Church has not ever officially stated they believe the shroud to be legit.

 

Now, you've cited some ad hoc hypotheses such as "AB blood" and perhaps others. However, there is simply no support for those assumptions. I understand that some analyses indicate iron oxide pigment is present, but that does not mean blood. Also, blood typing requires us to identify specific antibodies on the surface of a red blood cell. Iron is part of a protein within the blood cell known as haemoglobin. Haemoglobin is a molecule that allows for the transport of Oxygen and other molecules such as carbon dioxide. As such, it cannot be used to determine blood type and in fact, may not even indicate blood was ever present. Therefore, we can dismiss such assertions and simply look at evidence that is actually reproducible and consistent.

 

Let me ask, where do all these independent lines of evidence appear to intersect?