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Goodbye Jesus

How Christian Marriage Diminishes A Woman's Sense Of Identity...


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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_love

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexless_marriage

 

A marriage may also be sexless if one or both partners are asexual or if the couple mutually agrees to abstain from sex due to religious principles, avoidance of sexually transmitted diseases, a platonic basis for the relationship or the goal of avoiding conception. Other reasons for sexless marriages are resentment in the relationship due to an imbalance of duties, responsibilities (moral, spiritual and religious); incompatible ideal, spiritual, moral and behavioral aspects.

 

My uncle Arthur and his wife Eileen enjoyed a very happy (but unconsummated) platonic marriage for 55 years, BO.

 

Contained in marriage there can be a sexual element - but it is not an absolute requirement.

 

 

I am not discounting what you said and that fact, however, that is more the outlier than the norm.  As a general rule, my definitions and general expectations that I posted in post #28 is the more the norm.  IF a couple gets married and even if they did not discuss what was expected, which is what I suspect happens when most young people get married, then years later, one of the two spouses unilaterally decides to change that without discussing it with the other spouse, is that fair?  Is that right?  Is that not defrauding an expectation that was by default agreed upon?  

 

 

If there is a norm and outliers to that norm then you are describing a range or spread of possibilities, where there can be no 'right' answer.

 

Sorry BO, but I therefore cannot answer your questions.

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True love is counter-intuitive. By giving up our social, cultural and religiously granted "man power", we men get the biggest benefit of an equal partnership. We get to experience the true love of a woman who's uninhibited and free. The love of someone who doesn't have to love us, but chooses us freely.

I love that.

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I agree with the statement that a Christian Marriage (especially amongst conservative Christians) in general does diminish a woman's sense of identity.  I am a smart capable person (I am a woman) and graduated form the University with a BS in Chemistry, Summa Cum Laude.  I was offered a free ride to get my doctorate but was made to feel horribly guilty for not staying home, taking care of my husband and having kids.  I caved and did just that.  I felt like it was "God's will" that I serve my husband.  I was his helper and it was pretty clear that if I decided to have kids it was an abomination to put them in childcare.

 

I struggle now that I have deconverted and am able to be more true to myself.  I regret my decision and feel like I have put myself in a precarious position.  When you aren't contributing financially to the family you lose your power and voice.  I feel like I am a very smart, capable person that under normal circumstances would have been VERY successful in the work force.  Instead I clean, cook (I do make fantastic gourmet meals :)!), volunteer and run fundraisers at my kid's schools, and take care of my kids (this endeavor never leaves one feel successful or very satisfied....my 14 is major handful).  It has been a struggle in the past year to find my voice and insist that I be treated as an equal.  Equality is harder to establish when for 17 years it wasn't that way (I am 50% responsible for this myself as I believed that I had to submit even if I didn't think it was a good idea or very fair) and partly because I am a homemaker and that just doesn't garner a whole lot of respect.  It is weird how religion persuades us to do things that go against our good judgement.  Like the good quote from Mark Twain says "Faith is believing what you know just ain't so."

 

I am trying hard not to be bitter but instead learn from my mistakes and make the best of things.  My husband and I are both growing in this area and have 20 years of marriage under our belts.  I am happier now that I don't feel obligated to put up with the constraints of religion.  I think I am parenting better as well although I feel confused and frustrated in this department because I am raising my kids so different from the way I was raised ( I feel insecure and wonder if I am screwing all of this up!!). I'd love to hear how people on this forum have navigated raising kids after being raised under a very conservative Christian household (and having raised my own kids for the first 11 years as a sold out Christian and then deconverted).  Life is beautifully messy :)!!

Wow. Your situation is almost identical to ours! 20 years married with two kids. My daughter was 13 when we deconverted and was delighted that she no longer had to fear hell. Our son was 11 and hated leaving church and all his friends from the private Christian school that they were attending.

 

For our kids the trick was being 100% open and honest with them. We allow them the freedom to explore spirituality and try to give them as much freedom to figure things out without leaving them entirely on their own. It's a tricky balance at that age because we don't want to indoctrinate them from the skeptic side either. Now that they're 15 and 17 we can see how much they've grown and how confident they are in their philosophies. Their teachers are amazed at how current their scientific knowledge is! :)

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BO, BAA didn't say anything about changing the marriage without discussing it with the other partner. Furthermore, if one cheats on the other, is that right?

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Everyone's body belongs to him or her, and to that individual alone. No one is obligated to sleep with anyone, ever, for any reason. People change, and don't have to stick to the same agreement forever because they made it once, in a different time, and under different circumstances. People should do their best to keep their vows and remain faithful, but that requires consideration on both sides, not just demanding sex from someone while not thinking about the reasons why someone might not want to have sex. Refusing sex is not "just as bad" as cheating, because cheating is deceptive.

 

Why would anyone want to have sex with someone who felt obligated? Doesn't that take away the point of it?

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Lilith,

 

Please refer to  my post ( # 34 ) from yesterday.  

 

Where there is a central norm and outliers, there is a range or spread of possibilities and no single 'right' answer.

 

Bell_Curve.gif

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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BAA: Sorry, I don't see the point you're making with your normal curve picture. Are you trying to counter something I've said?

 

BO: Depends on their agreement. Did they agree to have sex every time either of them wants it? Then if one decided to refuse sex, then that would be going against the agreement they made. If they agreed to respect each other and remain loyal, then the meaning of the agreement would depend on what respect and loyalty entailed in the context of their relationship.

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BO, I've already answered those questions.

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BAA: Sorry, I don't see the point you're making with your normal curve picture. Are you trying to counter something I've said?

 

BO: Depends on their agreement. Did they agree to have sex every time either of them wants it? Then if one decided to refuse sex, then that would be going against the agreement they made. If they agreed to respect each other and remain loyal, then the meaning of the agreement would depend on what respect and loyalty entailed in the context of their relationship.

 

No Lilith.

 

It was BO who introduced the notion of there being a spread or range of possibilities, when it comes to the definition of what marriage is.  He did that in post # 30.  

 

The outlying area on the left side might refer to sexless, platonic marriages, the outlying area on the right side to open marriages where both the man and the woman have many sexual partners and the center is the norm, where the bulk 'normal' couples reside.  The entire range, from left thru right, are ALL valid marriages.  No possibility is excluded and there is no right or wrong answer.  There are only lesser and greater probabilities.

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Lilith,

 

Please refer to  my post ( # 34 ) from yesterday.  

 

Where there is a central norm and outliers, there is a range or spread of possibilities and no single 'right' answer.

 

Bell_Curve.gif

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

BAA, there are different types of marriages, but if you entered into a marriage with mutually shared expectations and they were agreed to on paper as a marriage contract, is one of the two not want to agree to the norms after the fact, not violating that agreement/contract? 

 

 

That would depend on the unique nature of each and every different relationship.

 

Each case should be decided on it's own merits.

 

Which is (essentially) what Lilith has said.

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Having re-read your question BO, I see that you are asking me to commit myself on a hypothetical 'if'.

 

Sorry, but I won't be doing that.

 

If you draw me out into agreeing with you on a hypothetical point, I strongly suspect you will then try to force the issue further.

 

This is my experience of your tactics, talking here.

 

I will remain firmly non-committal on this issue.

 

 

 

 

p.s.

 

I sincerely hope that you can leave this here and just let it rest.

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