Two Witnesses

[Kushne]

Who are the two witnesses talked about in Revelation? Does anybody know? Did they exist in the first century-- if so, who were they?

[florduh]

Enoch and Elijah.

[LogicalFallacy]

Moses and Elijah 

 

How do I know? Because the prophet of the Lord, William M Branham said so... and God spoke to him so he can't be wrong.

 

That aside I think you'll find its a reference to the recorded people who were speaking out about the coming destruction of Jerusalem. This actually happened - and it wasn't hard at the time to fortell - there's a flipping army outside the gates and you know they aren't playing march the army around the walls. But who they were/are supposed to be, I don't think there is a biblical reference for that. 

[florduh]

So......... make your own guess, everybody else does. It's not as if the story makes sense or relates to reality. If you're looking for answers, you've picked the wrong book.

[duderonomy]

I don't know if the two witnesses existed in the first century or not, but I go with the general consensus that they are Enoch and Elijah, because they are the only two people in the Bible that didn't 'taste death', but were taken up to Heaven while they were still alive.

Kind of like God put them in a holding account in Heaven to be used later, because somehow people that have died can't be a witness (sorry Jesus).

 

I'm not sure about Moses. He could see the promised land but couldn't enter it because he struck a rock instead of talking to it to make water come forth, and God is very touchy about those kind of things, because love, and I think Moses died on the cusp of deliverance so he's out.

 

Of course, the witnesses could be anybody like Florduh said, so maybe they are CNN and Fox News. Who knows. 

[LogicalFallacy]

*Religious hat on*

 

Yes but Moses was the great Prophet. He was the founder! Come on, you are splitting hairs.. or rocks in this case.

 

Enoch is barely featured. Did Jesus say Enoch spoke of me? No he said Moses spoke of me. Elijah is also featured as an important prophet by Jesus so no argument there. 

 

 

*Religious hat off*

[mwc]

     A more historicist view would say that these witnesses are simply some sect of the (proto)religion hidden in the allegory.  They'd know who they were reading texts like the Revelation at the time but are lost to us (short of new discoveries).  So they literally existed, preached and were destroyed but didn't have any magical powers like the text attributes to them.  After they were wiped out (possibly made illegal...who can say) they likely had a bit of a resurgence before being absorbed into other movements (or being taken up to heaven).  How close is this to actual reality?  It's difficult to say since we know nothing about the John that wrote all of this stuff.

     The church would like to look for answers within their own texts and ideologies which would mean people like Enoch and Elijah may well be good choices but only if you want to believe they were magically taken up to heaven and will magically return to perform some silly action like prophecy before being killed, brought back to life and returning to heaven again.  Of course that path starts to take us away from the reasonable and I'm sure that's not the path you want to take even though it seems to have more answers.

 

          mwc

[Geezer]

The Bible is a collection of fictional stories with fictional characters. It is not literally true or historically accurate. Until a person understands that the Bible will continue to be a problem for them. Liberal Christians understand that & find Bible truth in its metaphor, allegory, & symbolism but they don't interpret the Bible literally.

 

The book of revelations is written in symbolic language so it's message is open to a wide range of interpretations.

[Kushne]

I was wondering who they might have been based on the thought that Revelation likely provides a view of what occurred during Neros time, with some thinking he was the beast. If so, Enoch, Elijah and Moses failed to show during that time. So, it was someone or something (as mwc describes) else.

[Kushne]

I agree the Revelation is a crazy book-- I wish it wasn't even a part of the Bible. It has cause me so much pain and worry in my life.

[florduh]

I agree the Revelation is a crazy book-- I wish it wasn't even a part of the Bible. It has cause me so much pain and worry in my life.

Maybe time to let it go?

[Kushne]

Yeah--- that is exactly what I am working to do. I promise that I will get there.

[florduh]

A recovering alcoholic shouldn't hang out in saloons just to make sure they can resist taking a drink. 

[Kushne]

Very true. Thanks for giving me some food for thought. It is much appreciated

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hey!   {  }

[Joshpantera]

That's a good question. Why not start with Christian consensus view: http://www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ011513/Who-Are-the-Two-Witnesses-In-Revelation-11

 

 

 

And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. (Revelation 11:3-4)

The connection between this vision of the two preachers and the previous passage (vv. 1–2) should be clear. They are among God’s unique witnesses who will proclaim His message of judgment during the final stages of the Gentile trampling on Jerusalem—and will preach the gospel so that the Jewish remnant can believe and enjoy God’s protection.

Witnesses is the plural form of martus, from which the English word martyr derives, since so many witnesses of Jesus Christ in the early church paid with their lives. Since it is always used in the New Testament to refer to persons, the two witnesses must be actual people, not movements, as some commentators have held. There are two witnesses because the Bible requires the testimony of two people to confirm a fact or verify truth (Deut. 17:6; 19:15; Matt. 18:16; John 8:17; 2 Cor. 13:1; 1 Tim. 5:19; Heb. 10:28).

 

So there's an argument against the idea that they refer to two movements. 

 

 

 

It will be their responsibility to prophesy. Prophecy in the New Testament does not necessarily refer to predicting the future. Its primary meaning is “to speak forth,” “to proclaim,” or “to preach.” The two witnesses will proclaim to the world that the disasters occurring during the last half of the Tribulation are the judgments of God. They will warn that God’s final outpouring of judgment and eternal hell will follow. At the same time, they will preach the gospel, calling people to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The period of their ministry is twelve hundred and sixty days, the last three and one-half years of the Tribulation, when Antichrist’s forces oppress the city of Jerusalem (v. 2), and many Jews are sheltered in the wilderness (12:6). The fact that they are actual preachers and not symbols of institutions or movements is indicated by the description of their clothing and behavior which follows.

clothed in sackcloth.?” (11:3b)

 

The mark of the beast squarely fits Nero Caesar in two Biblical languages and the two witnesses seem to fit into the same general timeline that outlines Nero Caesar. The story jumps around and makes references to things from the past, like Daniel, so the context is important for trying to place something into a timeline.

 

 

 

These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. (11:4)

The question of who the two witnesses will be has intrigued Bible scholars over the years, and numerous possibilities have been suggested. John identifies them merely as the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. That enigmatic description is drawn from Zechariah 4:1–14.

Zechariah’s prophecy looks forward to the restoration of Israel in the Millennium (cf. Zech. 3:8–10). The olive trees and lampstands symbolize the light of revival, since olive oil was commonly used in lamps. The connecting of the lamps to the trees is intended to depict a constant, spontaneous, automatic supply of oil flowing from the olive trees into the lamps. That symbolizes the truth that God will not bring salvation blessing from human power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Zech. 4:6). Like Joshua and Zerubbabel, the two witnesses will lead a spiritual revival of Israel culminating in the building of a temple. Their preaching will be instrumental in Israel’s national conversion (Rev. 11:13; cf. Rom. 11:4–5, 26), and the temple associated with that conversion will be the millennial temple.

 

 

Ok, so I see quote mining, or Midrash as some prefer. This was done elsewhere in Revelation and many places in the NT where the writers lifted quotes from the OT and then presented them again in a different way. The virgin birth, for instance, came from quote mining Isaiah out of context. The writer of Revelation utilized the Book of Daniel elsewhere and now here the writer is going back to Zechariah for some reason. 

 

 

 

While it is impossible to be dogmatic about the specific identity of these two preachers, there are a number of reasons that suggest that they may be Moses and Elijah.

 

First, the miracles they will perform (destroying their enemies with fire, withholding rain, turning water into blood, and striking the earth with plagues) are similar to the judgments inflicted in the Old Testament by Moses and Elijah for the purpose of stimulating repentance. Elijah called down fire from heaven (2 Kings 1:10, 12) and pronounced a three-and-one-half-year drought on the land (1 Kings 17:1; James 5:17)—the same length as the drought brought by the two witnesses (Rev. 11:6). Moses turned the waters of the Nile into blood (Ex. 7:17–21) and announced the other plagues on Egypt recorded in Exodus chapters 7–12.

Second, both the Old Testament and Jewish tradition expected Moses and Elijah to return in the future. Malachi 4:5 predicted the return of Elijah, and the Jews believed that God’s promise to raise up a prophet like Moses (Deut. 18:15, 18) necessitated his return (cf. John 1:21; 6:14; 7:40). Jesus’ statement in Matthew 11:14 that “if you are willing to accept it, John [the Baptist] himself is Elijah who was to come” does not necessarily preclude Elijah’s future return. Since the Jews did not accept Jesus, John did not fulfill that prophecy. He came “in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord” (Luke 1:17).

Third, both Moses and Elijah (perhaps representing the Law and the Prophets) appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration, the preview of the Second Coming (Matt. 17:3?).

Fourth, both left the earth in unusual ways. Elijah never died, but was transported to heaven in a fiery chariot (2 Kings 2:11–12), and God supernaturally buried Moses’ body in a secret location (Deut. 34:5–6; Jude 9). The statement of Hebrews 9:27 that “it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment” does not rule out Moses’ return, since there are other rare exceptions to that general statement (such as Lazarus; John 11:14, 38–44).

Since the text does not specifically identify these two preachers, the view defended above, like all other views regarding their identity, must remain speculation.

 

I think this is just a good a guess as any.

 

Mine is a little more involved and strays from what a Christian would be willing to accept or admit. The hidden dialogue in Revelation is the Gnostic and mystical dynamic of the Great Year. It outlines the precession of the equinoxes in places like the 12 jewels, which, are given by old tradition corresponding each to a sign of the zodiac. Long story short, by this method the previous Great Year of 12 zodiacal world ages was coming to an end. The end of the age of Aries the Ram marked the end of the last cycle. The age of Pisces the fishes marked the beginning of the new cycle. The level of drama described is great because it marks the ending in time of one Great Year. The clues are left there in the book for the taking. And the astrological aspect is known to many Freemasons and those in other esoteric communities. I include those esoteric sources in my own research because they know and understand mysticism and can shed light on mysterious works like the book of Revelation. The whole Christian community seemed to have risen up as an end times group who were aware of the age change scheme and where OT writers alluded to the same. 

 

So all of the contemporary references are worked in along side of Midrash quote mining the OT prophets and all towards the aim of thinking that the world is coming to an end, or at least the ways in which the world had been was ending. There's no broad stroking way of figuring out Revelation for this reason. It's a mystical work that includes astrological referencing, ancient mystery school and Gnostic oriented symbolism, political references to time and place and a sense of wanting to validate the writing by way of Midrash quote mining the Jewish scriptures. And most of these areas are places that Christians will not even go, so there'll always be limitations to what they'll know or figure out about Revelation.