Spiritually Dead Ex-Christians?

[Guest]

@Ablemate it's interesting that you mention lucid dreams. I've had them starting as a teenager, but didn't know that's what they were until I was much older. I've never talked about my experiences in great detail because I'm afraid of being labelled a kook. In many ways I wanted the dreams to stop. Years ago, I found an Australian author who had written about these sorts of dreams and when he visited in a town nearby I decided to go check out his seminar. I found myself in a room of women who appeared to practice  wiccan or pagan rituals. There were drums, incense, dancinc, etc. I was a Christian at the time (though I've always had my doubts) and clearly an outsider, therefore, very uncomfortable. I didn't get any of the answers I was seeking about why I was having these dreams and how to control the experience. I've not really allowed myself to explore further and I tend to resist allowing myself these experiences. I don't know what of that's a good thing or not. But every now and then when I'm home alone, I get an overwhelming sense of fatigue and the urge to just lay my head down for awhile. It's on those occasions when I'm most likely to drift into one of these dreams. I still don't know what to make of that.

[Ellinas]

Lucid dreaming is a rare occurrence for me - last time I got into that state I recognised I was dreaming whilst I was apparently sat in my first car (an old style VW Polo).  So, I took it for a flight, chitty-chitty-bang-bang style, to see what the sky looked like (a rather bright sunrise as it happened).

 

If there are others with more extensive experience and capability in this particular art, it would be interesting to know about it.

[Joshpantera]

@Ablemate

On the Magical Egypt series they cover the Book of the Dead and come to the conclusion that the Egyptians were in some way looking at death like like lucid dreaming. As if by memorizing all of it they could then navigate the afterlife consciously. The name of the episode is Navigating the Afterlife. It's an interesting episode in the series.

 

Near the end they interview a magician who actively lucid dreams. And he described a methodology for provoking lucid dreaming. When passing through any door way you're supposed to reach out and touch the door casing and ask yourself, consciously, "am I dreaming." And he says that not long after it will sink into your subconscious mind and you'll find yourself passing through a doorway in your dreams and you'll ask yourself if you're dreaming, and then you'll realize, yes, you are dreaming. And then you can continue lucid and basically take control of the dream process. 

 

So I'm familiar with some methodology, but haven't really set out to practice. 

 

When dreams have turned lucid spontaneously over the years here and there, I generally wake up. Once I recognize the dream it's game over. As a child I remember dreaming that it was birthday and all of the my friends were there. But it was all of them, from every town and state there all at the same time - every friend I'd ever had. As I was walking around exited and happy I said out loud, "this must be a dream." And one of my friends who was standing close by shushed me immediately and said, "don't say that, you'll ruin it." And then it unraveled and came out of it. 

 

Another spooky version of a dream that spontaneously goes lucid is a recurring one.

 

I've had dreams that I'm down at my grandfathers house in the Islands and he'll be there, walking around the house. But he's been dead since 01'. And it will bother me in the dream. It's not a fear thing, it's just a bother to me. This has taken on several forms and I've dreamed about it several times. It boils down to me recognizing the whole thing is way off and getting a little pissed, aggressive and then confrontational within the dream. In this one version I got confrontational with him in the kitchen, and said, "you've been dead for well over a decade, you shouldn't be here!" To which he responded, "I know," and just shook his head like he had no idea why any of it was happening. But that sort of thing pulls me out. The dream gets way too confrontational and unreal and then I can't stay with it. The ill logical aspects dissolve the dream as I analyze all of the goings on rationally. 

 

Needless to say, I really love the movie Inception. 

 

It gets me thinking about dreams and the dream states. 

[Ellinas]

 

...

Near the end they interview a magician who actively lucid dreams. And he described a methodology for provoking lucid dreaming. When passing through any door way you're supposed to reach out and touch the door casing and ask yourself, consciously, "am I dreaming." And he says that not long after it will sink into your subconscious mind and you'll find yourself passing through a doorway in your dreams and you'll ask yourself if you're dreaming, and then you'll realize, yes, you are dreaming. And then you can continue lucid and basically take control of the dream process. 

...

When dreams have turned lucid spontaneously over the years here and there, I generally wake up. Once I recognize the dream it's game over. As a child I remember dreaming that it was birthday and all of the my friends were there. But it was all of them, from every town and state there all at the same time - every friend I'd ever had. As I was walking around exited and happy I said out loud, "this must be a dream." And one of my friends who was standing close by shushed me immediately and said, "don't say that, you'll ruin it." And then it unraveled and came out of it. 

...

 

Which begs the question whether the technique to develop lucid dreaming is a recipe for insomnia.

[Ablemate]

Thanks for all your responses.

I have started a topic on lucid dreaming as suggested.

I have heard or read somewhere that 1 in 5 people become lucid in dreams. Mostly they wake up straight away from excitement or confusion or whatever but you can train yourself to stay asleep and then you can do whatever you want!

Because it's a dream right.

one technique is to decide what you want to do in a lucid dream as you lie waiting to fall asleep. Concentrate on it hard and remember it when you go lucid. Suggestions include visiting deceased loved ones, interesting experience you have Josh, meeting higher self/spirit guide/guardian angel or an entity which will help/advise or assist you in some way.

There are loads of posts on YouTube from lucid dreamers.

[Deva]

This section of the forum has always had a low participation as far as I remember.  The majority of people on this site are in the process of deconversion and to me its totally understandable why any sort of spiritual stuff would not be to their interest or liking.  Its probably not what they are here for, its as if you went into a restaurant and found some different menu items you did not expect (someone else here gave me this analogy).

 

I was raised Christian, but aside from that have always had a belief in an unseen world/worlds and that there is more going on than our senses can detect.  I don't know if this is entirely due to Christian indoctrination because many things I was interested in in the past and am now interested in were really contrary to Christian beliefs.  I enjoyed reading about ghosts, ESP, reincarnation and UFOs as a child.  It seems like belief in the supernatural is the default setting for my brain.  In a way, this has made deconversion so much more difficult for me.    At this point in my life, I just accept that is how my mind operates. I always seem to see all kinds of possibilities that may be true.  What I have to guard against is going into some really restrictive thing that locks my mind up (such as Catholic Christianity) - that would be ultimately detrimental to me although I can see where it would lend a form of security.  I know that would not last. 

 

[Geezer]

10 hours ago, Deva said:

This section of the forum has always had a low participation as far as I remember.  The majority of people on this site are in the process of deconversion and to me its totally understandable why any sort of spiritual stuff would not be to their interest or liking.  Its probably not what they are here for, its as if you went into a restaurant and found some different menu items you did not expect (someone else here gave me this analogy).

 

I was raised Christian, but aside from that have always had a belief in an unseen world/worlds and that there is more going on than our senses can detect.  I don't know if this is entirely due to Christian indoctrination because many things I was interested in in the past and am now interested in were really contrary to Christian beliefs.  I enjoyed reading about ghosts, ESP, reincarnation and UFOs as a child.  It seems like belief in the supernatural is the default setting for my brain.  In a way, this has made deconversion so much more difficult for me.    At this point in my life, I just accept that is how my mind operates. I always seem to see all kinds of possibilities that may be true.  What I have to guard against is going into some really restrictive thing that locks my mind up (such as Catholic Christianity) - that would be ultimately detrimental to me although I can see where it would lend a form of security.  I know that would not last. 

 

 

 

Off topic. Just wanted to say welcome back Deva. I've missed reading your post.  

[Deva]

2 minutes ago, Geezer said:

 

 

Off topic. Just wanted to say welcome back Deva. I've missed reading your post.  

 

Thank you Geezer.  I have been away for awhile and its nice to hear I have been missed! Thanks again, much appreciated.

 

[Joshpantera]

4 hours ago, Deva said:

 

Thank you Geezer.  I have been away for awhile and its nice to hear I have been missed! Thanks again, much appreciated.

 

 

Yes, welcome back. 

 

I think you went off for a while, then I went off for a while. I had some over the top female drama going on - divorce, engagement within a year of the divorce, calling off the engagement, and finally coming back around to spiritual and intellectual time again, so to speak. And I must say, it's refreshing to be back to business as usual. lol

 

When I returned I realized you, Ravenstar, and some of the others were not active. 

 

I missed you too. 

 

Welcome back! 

[Ellinas]

Welcome back indeed.  I tried to PM you when you had apparently disappeared for a while but, as I recall, your inbox was too full.

 

I believe you are correct that it is hardly surprising that there is relatively little "spiritual" engagement on a site such as this.  And those of us who have such a side to our current worldview expressed online quite likely focus it elsewhere.

[Voice]

On 1/29/2017 at 12:26 PM, Joshpantera said:

Watching the evolution of this forum category seems to suggest as much. There's no where near the activity here as in other categories. Maybe some of the spiritual ex-christian members can answer why that it is, if anyone's listening.

 

Why has the forum dwindled to such a low activity level? I'd like hear what some of you have to say about it. Let's revive some activity, shall we?

 

Thanks

 

There's a lot of hate on this site, which is not conducive to spiritual growth. I've tried to recruit people here and for this reason they have chosen not to join. It's disappointing. 

Personally, I think of spirituality a lot. I wonder what it means. I listen to world news and search for pockets of spirituality on Earth. I see it sometimes, I think. 

 

This forum decays because christians pray diligently against it, pleading that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit expose us and destroy us. This statement is a bitter challenge. Not for hate. For spirituality. I came here seeking advanced spirituality, above and beyond christianity. I'm here today seeking that. There is more.

[florduh]

9 minutes ago, Voice said:

I came here seeking advanced spirituality, above and beyond christianity.

This site's primary purpose is to help people going through the pain of deconversion from Christianity.

 

Christians come here and make claims without proof and get pounded. This particular forum is a "safe place" for people to espouse spiritual beliefs other than Christianity. We are not permitted to challenge religious/spiritual assertionsnhere as long as they don't involve Christianity. In practice, most who leave the Christian religion do search for some other belief that retains concepts of gods and souls, but the majority eventually find no evidence for that either. While ex-Christians are still tossing around alternative religious concepts they may do so here.

[Joshpantera]

26 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

There's a lot of hate on this site, which is not conducive to spiritual growth. I've tried to recruit people here and for this reason they have chosen not to join. It's disappointing. 

Personally, I think of spirituality a lot. I wonder what it means. I listen to world news and search for pockets of spirituality on Earth. I see it sometimes, I think. 

 

This forum decays because christians pray diligently against it, pleading that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit expose us and destroy us. This statement is a bitter challenge. Not for hate. For spirituality. I came here seeking advanced spirituality, above and beyond christianity. I'm here today seeking that. There is more.

 

Why don't we take a completely different route, then. 

 

I'm here to help people, bottom line. In what ever ways may be helpful to them. I'd like to help you and the people who you've tried to invite to ex-C. Let's think about this a little further. The hate you mention is completely understandable. Everyone here, you included, have been lied to for years by christian claims and it's arrogance. There's good reason for people to hate it and to hate what's it's done to their lives and to their families.

 

I consider myself deeply spiritual in very specific ways, which I will explore and expose to you if you want to know about it. And yet I (1) understand completely why some people hate christianity and (2) how christianity has caused them to shun spirituality in general by putting a bad taste in their mouths. I can fully deconstruct what constitutes human spirituality in full, from a shallow perspective to as deep a perspective as is possible if you'd like to understand this alternative critique of christianity. It's a very powerful one. And you may want to invite others to read along as well, especially those who were off put by what goes on in the other sub forums. 

 

I'd like to ask you a question about what you mean by, "this forum decays because christians pray diligently against it, pleading that god, jesus and the holy spirit expose us and destroy us?"

 

This spirituality sub forum, or ex-C in general? 

[Margee]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

This site's primary purpose is to help people going through the pain of deconversion from Christianity.

 

Christians come here and make claims without proof and get pounded. This particular forum is a "safe place" for people to espouse spiritual beliefs other than Christianity. We are not permitted to challenge religious/spiritual assertionsnhere as long as they don't involve Christianity. In practice, most who leave the Christian religion do search for some other belief that retains concepts of gods and souls, but the majority eventually find no evidence for that either. While ex-Christians are still tossing around alternative religious concepts they may do so here.

Thank you florduh.

 

And this is why we should be very careful with newcomers. I suspect these 2 newcomers won't be coming back because before they could blink an eye and tell us why they were here, they were whipped off to the Lions Den and interrogated about their so-called spirituality and gods that they wanted to continue to believe in. They did not believe in the christian god anymore as far as I could see. They wanted to hold on to something, even for a while.

 

We need to invite the newcomers here to the 'spirituality section' while they are deconverting. This place gives a safety net for those who CANNOT accept the fact that there may be no god at all. This can be petrifying to some when they join here. It was for me. So I say, let everyone come to their own conclusions over time. Yes, I'm annoyed with this issue. And yes, I would love to hear some other forms of spirituality myself without being ashamed of it.

Hard-core atheists do not have to ever enter this part of the forum.

 

 

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, Margee said:

Thank you florduh.

 

And this is why we should be very careful with newcomers. I suspect these 2 newcomers won't be coming back because before they could blink an eye and tell us why they were here, they were whipped off to the Lions Den and interrogated about their so-called spirituality and gods that they wanted to continue to believe in. They did not believe in the christian god anymore as far as I could see. They wanted to hold on to something, even for a while.

 

We need to invite the newcomers here to the 'spirituality section' while they are deconverting. This place gives a safety net for those who CANNOT accept the fact that there may be no god at all. This can be petrifying to some when they join here. It was for me. So I say, let everyone come to their own conclusions over time. Yes, I'm annoyed with this issue. And yes, I would love to hear some other forms of spirituality myself without being ashamed of it.

Hard-core atheists do not have to ever enter this part of the forum.

 

 

 

We are a community forum for people who have deconverted and also people 'in the throes' of deconversion. But I don't believe we have a 'deconversion process' subforum , do we? The Lions Den spells out "Christians are allowed to evangelize but expect to be attacked", Spirituality Forum says something like, "This is a place to freely discuss Ex-Christian Spirituality without getting attacked." Why not a subforum for people in the deconversion process? The rule being that the purpose is for helping people deconvert. No hardcore evangelism is permitted and also no hardcore anti-theism is permitted either. A Christian having issues  with Christianity ought to be able to have discussion with someone who is helpful. 

 

I don't know. Maybe we already have enough subforums.

[Geezer]

I don't have any issues with people seeking some form of spirituality. Hell, I don't have any issues with Christians as long as they aren't fundamentalists. It's just the fundies that tend to be bat shit crazy. 

 

And as previously stated, this forum is supposed to be a safe place for those that want to discuss spirituality. I thought you had to know the secret handshake to even post here. And I have been given the code for the secret handshake, so I feel special. 

[Joshpantera]

On 1/24/2018 at 8:56 AM, Margee said:

We need to invite the newcomers here to the 'spirituality section' while they are deconverting. This place gives a safety net for those who CANNOT accept the fact that there may be no god at all. This can be petrifying to some when they join here. It was for me. So I say, let everyone come to their own conclusions over time. Yes, I'm annoyed with this issue. And yes, I would love to hear some other forms of spirituality myself without being ashamed of it.

Hard-core atheists do not have to ever enter this part of the forum.

 

Margee, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have people go through a series of initiation into the ex-C community, so to speak. 

 

If we were to treat newcomers as initiates who go through a series of understandings maybe beginning with introduction, going through the spirituality section to get a firmer grip on several key issues, and then eventually going to the other general forums and finally the debate forums. By the time they reach the debate forums level of initiation, they will have been exposed to enough key information and issues so as not to find it nearly as off putting as simply diving right in with absolutely no back ground experience before entering those arena's. And they could move through this pre-ordained series of initiation via only having rights to post in the categories which they have been approved to post in. So much time here, or so many posts here, then so much time in another, and so on. Until you've earned your way into having the ability to post in all sub forums. 

 

Just a thought. 

[Orbit]

I seem to have the opposite idea of the process. I think you go through an atheist stage, and then start looking for more, a la Sam Harris. I would welcome people who are early in the questioning stage, though, to do it in Ex-C Spirituality (as long as they are not evangelizing) if they like. Perhaps some of us here could show questioners that you don't need the Abrahamic God to have a spiritual practice (of some kind, whether paganism, Buddhism, meditation, pantheism, whatever).

[Joshpantera]

52 minutes ago, Orbit said:

I seem to have the opposite idea of the process. I think you go through an atheist stage, and then start looking for more, a la Sam Harris. I would welcome people who are early in the questioning stage, though, to do it in Ex-C Spirituality (as long as they are not evangelizing) if they like. Perhaps some of us here could show questioners that you don't need the Abrahamic God to have a spiritual practice (of some kind, whether paganism, Buddhism, meditation, pantheism, whatever).

 

I did the above, myself. 

 

But the post seemed to speak to a need for people are going the one foot in, one foot out route and then finding us off putting with all of the aggressive atheist presence. That's why I was thinking of a different route than what I, Harris and perhaps you have taken. We may be the odd balls out in that respect. I don't know, just a thought. 

 

 

[Margee]

On 1/24/2018 at 10:14 PM, Joshpantera said:

 

Margee, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have people go through a series of initiation into the ex-C community, so to speak. 

 

If we were to treat newcomers as initiates who go through a series of understandings maybe beginning with introduction, going through the spirituality section to get a firmer grip on several key issues, and then eventually going to the other general forums and finally the debate forums. By the time they reach the debate forums level of initiation, they will have been exposed to enough key information and issues so as not to find it nearly as off putting as simply diving right in with absolutely no back ground experience before entering those arena's. And they could move through this pre-ordained series of initiation via only having rights to post in the categories which they have been approved to post in. So much time here, or so many posts here, then so much time in another, and so on. Until you've earned your way into having the ability to post in all sub forums. 

 

Just a thought. 

Excellent @Joshpantera . As soon as I get a few minutes, I'll write a little 'Welcome Note' to the new-comers and incorporate yours' and @Orbit's suggestions! I appreciate all your input! 

 

(hug)

[Ellinas]

Strikes me that we each go with the thought process that is most comfortable for, and makes most sense to, us when leaving Christianity.  There is no rule that it should or should not be atheist either in commencement or ultimate destination.  Ex Christian theists are not - or at least not necessarily - feeling their way to atheism any more than ex Christian atheists are feeling their way to spirituality.  Equally, what I believe today may be very different to the pattern of my brainwaves tomorrow.

 

I rather suspect, consequently, that every newcomer needs to be welcomed and treated according to their individual characteristics.  As do established Ex C's...

[Joshpantera]

On 1/28/2018 at 11:44 AM, Ellinas said:

Strikes me that we each go with the thought process that is most comfortable for, and makes most sense to, us when leaving Christianity.  There is no rule that it should or should not be atheist either in commencement or ultimate destination.  Ex Christian theists are not - or at least not necessarily - feeling their way to atheism any more than ex Christian atheists are feeling their way to spirituality.  Equally, what I believe today may be very different to the pattern of my brainwaves tomorrow.

 

I rather suspect, consequently, that every newcomer needs to be welcomed and treated according to their individual characteristics.  As do established Ex C's...

 

All true. But the issue was raised about the overwhelming presence of atheists, a want or need for spiritual thinking, and an off putting feeling being felt around the website. What I'm suggesting is not any destination aside from learning how to interact with an atheist majority environment, which is what ex christians in general tend to encompass. There are ways in which to learn to understand and interact with the majority of atheists that can be gleaned here in this section and then applied to moving out beyond this "safe zone," so to speak. 

 

It has to do with the off putting issue associated with the common aggressive non-theistic behavior. 

 

It may do people well to interact with non-theists here, like myself, who have a spiritual side nonetheless. Who, over several decades, does just fine in completely materialistic, hard nose atheist communities without seeing any of it as either off putting or, more importantly, threatening in any way to my spiritual views (Pantheism, aspects of Panpsychism, now Conscious Realism, and so on). You're another example. You have no problem navigating your way through hoards of hard nosed atheists, do you? They don't pose a threat to you in any way, do they? If not, then newbies may well glean some valuable information from interacting with you here. 

 

I think what was expressed has to do with feeling threatened by the non-theistic majority. I've asked questions to sort this out further, which, so far have not been answered. I'd like to get to the bottom of the issue instead of guessing at it, to be honest. So @Voice answering some of my questions and engaging this further would be appreciated.