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Goodbye Jesus

Paganism > Christianity


LordProtectorOliverCromwell

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I really don't see why Western civilisation should revolve around a dead Jew who preached all sorts of nonsense. I believe that Greco-Roman paganism was far superior. It encouraged a love of life, a love of this earth and a belief in warrior virtues, courage, pride, self-confidence, wealth, power, conquest and domination. Not weakness, timidity, sympathy, poverty and charity like Jesus.

 

That's why the West is so neutered today. Christianity has reached its logical conclusion in Christian

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The apparent elevation of conquest and domination and contempt for sympathy and charity in the OP concerns me.  It's one thing to appreciate this life and work toward making the most of it.  It's another to do so at the expense of others.

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The apparent elevation of conquest and domination and contempt for sympathy and charity in the OP concerns me.  It's one thing to appreciate this life and work toward making the most of it.  It's another to do so at the expense of others.

I have a Nietzschdsn attitude towards life.

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Every person needs a balance between self-interest and other-interest. If we go around constantly giving of ourselves with little time spent looking out for our own needs, we're almost certain to be taken advantage of. But if we look out only for ourselves, the world becomes a self-absorbed mess with each person grabbing from others.

 

You have ranted here recently about the churches you've been to that scam others, seeing them as walking ATMs. You've seen selfishness and its effects firsthand. So I must ask: why do you feel the need to dominate anyone, rather than simply refusing to let others dominate you?

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Every person needs a balance between self-interest and other-interest. If we go around constantly giving of ourselves with little time spent looking out for our own needs, we're almost certain to be taken advantage of. But if we look out only for ourselves, the world becomes a self-absorbed mess with each person grabbing from others.

 

You have ranted here recently about the churches you've been to that scam others, seeing them as walking ATMs. You've seen selfishness and its effects firsthand. So I must ask: why do you feel the need to dominate anyone, rather than simply refusing to let others dominate you?

Because I want a taste of what it feels to have power.

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The Greco-Roman tradition has plenty of genocidal stories (Troy, Carthage). The Greco-Roman gods also send plagues and disasters on people for stupid reasons (why did the innocent Phebians have to suffer because of Oedipus's sin?) All ancient religions are bad. Saying that Christianity is the only bad religion would be dishonest. I'm an equal opportunity hater of ancient gods. 

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The apparent elevation of conquest and domination and contempt for sympathy and charity in the OP concerns me.  It's one thing to appreciate this life and work toward making the most of it.  It's another to do so at the expense of others.

I have a Nietzschdsn attitude towards life.

 

Nietzsche and Zarathustra disapprove.

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I really don't see why Western civilisation should revolve around a dead Jew who preached all sorts of nonsense. I believe that Greco-Roman paganism was far superior. It encouraged a love of life, a love of this earth and a belief in warrior virtues, courage, pride, self-confidence, wealth, power, conquest and domination. Not weakness, timidity, sympathy, poverty and charity like Jesus.

 

That's why the West is so neutered today. Christianity has reached its logical conclusion in Christian

 

A sense of tribe is all some people care about. Whether any of the teachings make sense or not is irrelevant.

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LordProtector: In other words, you hold others to higher standards than those to which you hold yourself.

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The apparent elevation of conquest and domination and contempt for sympathy and charity in the OP concerns me.  It's one thing to appreciate this life and work toward making the most of it.  It's another to do so at the expense of others.

I have a Nietzschdsn attitude towards life.

 

 

I think Nietzsche's foremost point is mastery and power over oneself, not others.

 

The Greco-Roman tradition has plenty of genocidal stories (Troy, Carthage). The Greco-Roman gods also send plagues and disasters on people for stupid reasons (why did the innocent Phebians have to suffer because of Oedipus's sin?) All ancient religions are bad. Saying that Christianity is the only bad religion would be dishonest. I'm an equal opportunity hater of ancient gods. 

 

As somewhat of a pagan myself, I admit to being biased, but I have to disagree here. Greco-Roman paganism, like many forms of paganism, were not nearly as dogmatic as the Abrahamic religions. Being polytheistic, pluralism is sorta the main deal with "paganism". There was no central governing body, no scriptural canon, and a wide plethora of beliefs and customs. Just look at all the different schools of philosophy that thrived during Classic Antiquity, and you'll see my point. Sure, religious intolerance may have existed, but not in the way we know from later eras. The Greeks and Romans had no problem with adopting the customs and dieties of neighbouring cultures, as long as they didn't pose a serious threat to them. I believe Pagan Europe was very much like Hinduism/Sanatana Dharma in the Indian sub-continent: a wide array of more or less interrelated traditions that could differ a great deal, but still living side by side in mutual tolerance. So, on that point, I agree with the OP that Paganism > Christianity (and Abrahamic Monotheism in general).

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I think Nietzsche's forestmost...

 

The Greco-Roman tradition has plenty of genocidal stories...

 

... plethora of beliefs and customs...

 

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Every person needs a balance between self-interest and other-interest. If we go around constantly giving of ourselves with little time spent looking out for our own needs, we're almost certain to be taken advantage of. But if we look out only for ourselves, the world becomes a self-absorbed mess with each person grabbing from others.

 

You have ranted here recently about the churches you've been to that scam others, seeing them as walking ATMs. You've seen selfishness and its effects firsthand. So I must ask: why do you feel the need to dominate anyone, rather than simply refusing to let others dominate you?

Because I want a taste of what it feels to have power.

 

 

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

While I find religions fascinating, calling the Greek and Roman religions superior is missing the point. All religions are wrong insomuch as their claims of truth are unfounded.

 

You don't seem to have taken into consideration that Christianity can and has done good. You can't wrap a religion up and say its all bad or all good.

 

The warrior values you talk about had the Roman and Greek empires conquering and enslaving nations from Africa, to Persia, and up to the Germanic tribes and the Celts. The same warrior values had Muslims butchering their way across the Mid east and Europe centuries later, it it might not be the best value to subscribe to.

 

As for Western Civilization revolving around Jesus - its been ingrained into the culture for 2 millennia. But, and this is there the ancient religions are greater IMO, both Judaism and Christianity have their roots in older polytheistic religions - those old cultures still influence us possibly from 8,000 years ago. Pretty amazing huh?

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 While I find religions fascinating, calling the Greek and Roman religions superior is missing the point. All religions are wrong insomuch as their claims of truth are unfounded.

 

While my secular agnostic side is inclined to agree with you on this, my inner spiritual/philosophical hippie would like that say that it largely depends on what one means with "religion". There's no unwritten law that says that one has to subscribe to literalism instead of symbolic interpretations. One can still find things of value (philosophically, morally, socially, aesthetically et cetera) in a lot of old traditions, IMHO.

 

 

You don't seem to have taken into consideration that Christianity can and has done good. You can't wrap a religion up and say its all bad or all good.

 

Agree.

 

 

The warrior values you talk about had the Roman and Greek empires conquering and enslaving nations from Africa, to Persia, and up to the Germanic tribes and the Celts. The same warrior values had Muslims butchering their way across the Mid east and Europe centuries later, it it might not be the best value to subscribe to.

 

I think the OP is having something else in mind though when he's talking about "warrior values": A code of honor, self-mastery, stuff like that. I assume that's the case, as it would be analogous with his "Nietzschean" ideas. I share that sentiment to a certain degree. The Bhagavad Gita, for instance, is not a manual for killing your enemies, even though the myths therein tell of an immense battle, but rather, a manual for spiritual self-mastery, discipline, sense of duty and so on.

 

And while we're at it: self-proclaimed Nietzschean übermensch often hold a high disdain for the "turn the other cheek"-mentality, but I honestly think they're missing the point. I think that particular passage is one of the (few as though they may be) valuable ones in the NT, and I think that Jesus' is talking about just that kind of self-discipline mentioned above. It's about detachment and not debasing yourself by sinking to your enemies level. By "turning the other cheek" you're basically saying "You fucked up, you lost control, I'm not stooping to your level".

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I don't know, rjn. The verse does say "Do not resist an evil person," but then, "resist" could mean something different in the original language than it does in English. I certainly never thought of that interpretation before.

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I don't know, rjn. The verse does say "Do not resist an evil person," but then, "resist" could mean something different in the original language than it does in English. I certainly never thought of that interpretation before.

 

I remember reading this somewhere else, but here's an interesting take on it from Wikipedia (yeah, go on and ridicule me):

 

 

The scholar Walter Wink, in his book Engaging the Powers: Discernment and Resistance in a World of Domination, interprets the passage as ways to subvert the power structures of the time.[2] He says that at the time of Jesus, striking someone deemed to be of a lower class with the back of the hand was used to assert authority and dominance. If the persecuted person "turned the other cheek," the discipliner was faced with a dilemma. The left hand was used for unclean purposes, so a back-hand strike on the opposite cheek would not be performed. An alternative would be a slap with the open hand as a challenge or to punch the person, but this was seen as a statement of equality. Thus, by turning the other cheek the persecuted was demanding equality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek#Nonviolent_resistance_interpretation

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Honestly, why do so many people die from cancer? Does Asclepius not care about us? Why does Poseidon not stop hurricanes? The Greek gods seem negligent to me. I don't see why they are worthy of worship.

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Honestly, why do so many people die from cancer? Does Asclepius not care about us? Why does Poseidon not stop hurricanes? The Greek gods seem negligent to me. I don't see why they are worthy of worship.

 

Many pagans, both in ancient times and neo-pagans, see the gods as archetypes, and the myths as symbolic retellings. Not all religion works like Christianity. Perhaps it's not always about getting "something" from the gods? People have many reasons for being religious. A sense of continuity being one of them.

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Honestly, why do so many people die from cancer? Does Asclepius not care about us? Why does Poseidon not stop hurricanes? The Greek gods seem negligent to me. I don't see why they are worthy of worship.

 

Many pagans, both in ancient times and neo-pagans, see the gods as archetypes, and the myths as symbolic retellings. Not all religion works like Christianity. Perhaps it's not always about getting "something" from the gods? People have many reasons for being religious. A sense of continuity being one of them.

 

 

The culture and spirituality of paganism can be fascinating. Most of the pagans I've spoken to aren't fear-based in their practice. There's no hell to burn in forever. Some believe in karma, others don't. There's no fixed doctrine or dogma and a lot of pagans are solitary practitioners so there is no 'accountability' to others. No guilt, no shame.

 

Like a lot of things people practice paganism because it feels good, not because it is well-reasoned. :)

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Karma? Are we mixing east and west? I guess belief in Tartarus is unpopular with modern pagans.

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I don't think that the West is neutered -- the USA is the third most populous country in the world, and is bristling with armaments that could destroy the entire world.  The USA has used them and will do it again.  The USA has imposed a language and a way of thinking upon all other cultures.  If the standard is "conquest and domination," the West has achieved this supremely.  If there is anything like a lull, hiatus, accommodation, or sharing, it's only a further flexing of power in the form of doing what very few other cultures have been willing or able to do.

 

...and none of what I point out above is a compliment.

 

quote-i-wonder-if-we-might-pledge-oursel

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Karma? Are we mixing east and west? I guess belief in Tartarus is unpopular with modern pagans.

 

Have you read anything I've written? There's no such thing as a pagan scriptural canon, and therefor no dogma that's cast in stone. Paganism isn't Christianity. Paganism isn't one single religion either, it's just an umbrella term. Get a clue.

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Karma? Are we mixing east and west? I guess belief in Tartarus is unpopular with modern pagans.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Three_(Wicca)

 

Paganism mixes all sorts of things. :) Pagans tend to pick and choose whatever gods and ideas work for them. There's even godless , atheist paganism. :)  Why would I want to include a notion of eternal torment in my own belief system? That idea was devised eons ago to make people behave. We have laws and society now to handle that.

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Karma? Are we mixing east and west? I guess belief in Tartarus is unpopular with modern pagans.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Three_(Wicca)

 

Paganism mixes all sorts of things. smile.png Pagans tend to pick and choose whatever gods and ideas work for them. There's even godless , atheist paganism. smile.png  Why would I want to include a notion of eternal torment in my own belief system? That idea was devised eons ago to make people behave. We have laws and society now to handle that.

 

 

Ideas like Tartaros weren't universally accepted either. As I said in my initial post in this thread: as I see it, Paganism is, by definition, pluralistic. One could try and dismiss this, and argue that all religions are subject to syncretism and outside influences, but I'd still like to claim that there is quite a big difference between a "revealed", strictly scripture based religion like Islam or Christianity, and many pagan traditions.

 

Different customs, themes and ideas could be embraced in different regions and stratas within the same society. The average Roman farmer was probably more concerned with some sort of nature-based animism, the Lares (household spirits) and nature spirits tied to his daily life (agriculture, hunting) than he was with the stately sanctioned Imperial Cult. In Pagan Scandinavia, one region could put a lot of emphasis on certain gods and customs, whereas others were favoured elsewhere. My country, for instance, is full of places dedicated to the god "Ullr": hundreds of toponyms to this day bear his name which is a testament to his importance, but he barely shows up in the Eddas and the other written sources, in contrast to Odin, Thor, Tyr/Tiwaz and the others. There are strong indications regular people didn't bother much with the idea of Valhalla either. Quite likely, they may have believed in some sort reincarnation, intimately tied with the ancestor cults. On the other hand, it's not clear all of them believed in a life after death at all. Again: a plurality of beliefs, concepts, myths and interpretations.

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