Popular Post Positivist Posted February 16, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted February 16, 2017 Well, there it is folks. 20 years of marriage, done just like dinner, although much less savoury and leaving a considerable aftertaste. And I (formerly "we") have Joshua Harris to thank for that. My (soon-to-be-ex-husband, or STBEH) was raised in a strict religious (of the fundagelical and charismaniac ilk) home. As a teen he read Joshua Harris's book, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" and attended life- and soul-killing Bill Gothard seminars too. He committed early on to a life of purity, not even thinking "impure" (AKA human) thoughts. My family upbringing was a little more liberal than his. I actually dated several guys before my STBEH. When my STBEH and I met (on the worship team! ) and started dating, he would only hold hands, and pecks on the cheek were not permitted until we were engaged. He wanted to be able to say that he had only kissed but one woman: his wife. Given my history of passionate boot-knocking-without-penetration, I thought this was so sweet of him. Our first kiss was at the matrimonial altar. I trusted God for everything. Our subsequent marriage was a disaster. My STBEH and I discovered early on we had trouble in the "act of marriage" department. Our religious confidants and counsellors chalked it up to a million different reasons. But no one questioned the insane foundation on which we had based our entire marriage. I prayed for years for Jeeziz to make me feel attracted to him. This attraction never materialized. I've had 20 years of occasional (and sh*tty) sex, and I've felt guilty for not "putting out" more often. I just couldn't do it unless I was virtually drunk. Frankly, I'm amazed our marriage lasted 20 years. And that neither of us cheated throughout that time. Some pastors and Christian leaders will tell you that if you safeguard your purity in your dating relationship, God will grant you a fulfilling long lasting marriage (with great sex). I have found this belief to be not only untrue, but damagingly false and deceitfully destructive. In sharp contrast to what Joshua Harris followers would tell you, secular marriage experts such as Gottmans (with actually relevant and advanced degrees) will tell you that if you are not attracted to your mate before your wedding, it certainly is not bound to improve after it. My STBEH and I--due to the constraints placed by him upon our dating relationship (yes, I accommodated that demand, being a good Christian female)--never had the chance to explore our physical and sexual compatibility. We are 100% incompatible. I simply do not feel attracted to my STBEH at all, and I never have. Joshua Harris is on the hook for this. I see he is collecting stories about some of the negative impacts of his book. I'm tempted to send mine in but then I think, "Meh. I'm moving on. Those people can go f*(k themselves." So. There it is. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Our modern blend of Christianity brainwashes men into becoming wusses. Women aren't attracted to wusses. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Sorry to hear this. I have heard many things about the negative impact of his book and from what I am reading and hearing, he is sorry for what he espoused to millions of people. I can't speak for him and don't really care to. The more distance I put between myself and the Christianity I left behind, the more I see how its a totally fucked up way to live. I am still married to a believer, and I think she still holds on to the traditional christian values of "Wifely duties" and and all that crap. But I just want to love her and I just want her to love me. Thankfully, our sex life is ok/good, but it could be so much better if we could get out of this Christian mindset ( I still have some of it ingrained in me, and,despite my fighting it often, it still shows up). I wish you the best in the future. Grieve and do what you need to in order to heal, then go out there and kick ass. Life is still good and you have plenty to enjoy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 16, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted February 16, 2017 Remember, the Nuremberg trials established that those carrying out immoral orders were not relieved of their own responsibility simply because they chose to comply. Blame Harris if it's easier, but we all have responsibility for our actions. Sorry it turned out this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 Remember, the Nuremberg trials established that those carrying out immoral orders were not relieved of their own responsibility simply because they chose to comply. Blame Harris if it's easier, but we all have responsibility for our actions. I take responsibility for my role in my failed marriage. Joshua Harris and his ilk provided but the poisonous seed. Florduh, the real challenge for me now is not kicking myself a thousand times a day for being so gullible and trusting a god who was not there. I continue to grieve all the things (including the best years of my life) that I threw into the fires of worthless faith. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I don't know what to say except good luck to you as you go through this process. I have similar shenanigans going on in my life after decades, and it's tough to go through even though mine is a completely friendly break up. I do wish you well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 I don't know what to say except good luck to you as you go through this process. I have similar shenanigans going on in my life after decades, and it's tough to go through even though mine is a completely friendly break up. Thanks Jeff. Ours is relatively amicable as well, although hard feelings lay just beneath the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Glad to hear you're done with the absurd, controlling aspects of religion. I wish you happiness in a new different life direction! Enjoy life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Sorry to hear your marriage went the way it did. That part about STBEH's wanting to be able to say he had kissed no one but his wife is incredibly unrealistic. Like a teenager's idea of "true love": the first person you have feelings for is The One, and you're never going to be with or attracted to anyone else, and it's going to last forever. Only worse, because it was an adult about to be married with these notions. It's the sort of thing you see on inspirational Christian Facebook posts - some nice-sounding nonsense with a pretty background and no thought given to what it actually means. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 ^ Agreed. Magical thinking in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insightful Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I'm really sorry, Positivist. I totally hear you. My wife and I waited (minus some decently passionate kissing/pushing the edge of what we thought was "OK" in God's eyes). For me, my relationship with her was my first relationship ever (beyond just some casual dating). She had had a few sexual relationships before becoming a believer. This freaked me out when we got married because I could tell at 25 (when we got married) that I wasn't as warrior-like as I would have been at, say 18 or 20, and I was worried that she would compare me to her old memories... Thankfully, we've done well enough sexually - from my perspective, though not from hers. My lack of faith makes it very difficult for her to make love fully, with abandon... But there are a couple of things I mourn and regret that Christianity's view of sexuality did to our relationship: 1) There was a time when we were dating that we were kissing passionately and both VERY excited. But of course, we had to hit the breaks. I'll always wonder how amazing it would have been to have gone for it! Not like now, when we put it on the schedule, but to have enjoyed fulfilling that deep, animalistic desire to experience each other in that moment. 2) In a strange way, I wonder if those couples that do "go for it" before they get married ultimately do better because they have placed THEIR relationship - their passion and love for one another - above ideological concerns. My mind tells me that would be a lot healthier - to be committed to each other above all else. Damn anything that stands between us. Not sure if any of this was relevant, but you got me thinking. All the best to you. You sound like a great person! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Dr. Darrel Ray wrote an excellent book about sex & Christianity. The name of the book is God & Sex. He is a clinical psychologist & his book points out how distructive Christian teachings about sex are. He is an atheists now but was raised in a Christian fundamentalists environment. It's a good read for anyone considering marrying a Christian or for current Christians who are struggling with their sexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 That part about STBEH's wanting to be able to say he had kissed no one but his wife is incredibly unrealistic. Like a teenager's idea of "true love": the first person you have feelings for is The One, and you're never going to be with or attracted to anyone else, and it's going to last forever. Only worse, because it was an adult about to be married with these notions. It's the sort of thing you see on inspirational Christian Facebook posts - some nice-sounding nonsense with a pretty background and no thought given to what it actually means. So true!! So insane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 1) There was a time when we were dating that we were kissing passionately and both VERY excited. But of course, we had to hit the breaks. I'll always wonder how amazing it would have been to have gone for it! Not like now, when we put it on the schedule, but to have enjoyed fulfilling that deep, animalistic desire to experience each other in that moment. 2) In a strange way, I wonder if those couples that do "go for it" before they get married ultimately do better because they have placed THEIR relationship - their passion and love for one another - above ideological concerns. My mind tells me that would be a lot healthier - to be committed to each other above all else. Damn anything that stands between us. Great questions, Insightful!! I wonder about that too. I have heard of guys developing ED from all the brake-applications during Christian dating. It's just not normal or natural. I wish I'd made love to my boyfriends. But I was too high on Jeeziz Juice to go "all the way". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 Dr. Darrel Ray wrote an excellent book about sex & Christianity. The name of the book is God & Sex. He is a clinical psychologist & his book points out how distructive Christian teachings about sex are. He is an atheists now but was raised in a Christian fundamentalists environment. Thanks for the tip, Geezer! I've just ordered it now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 You would have done better by cheating. Don't sell yourself short. TRUTH! That right there: TRUTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted February 18, 2017 Moderator Share Posted February 18, 2017 I'm hopeful for a better future for you, friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 I'm hopeful for a better future for you, friend! Thanks, TF! My counsellor thinks I'm having a renaissance. I am hopeful that I will emerge into my new/real self through this process. :-) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 18, 2017 Moderator Share Posted February 18, 2017 I'm hopeful for a better future for you, friend! Thanks, TF! My counsellor thinks I'm having a renaissance. I am hopeful that I will emerge into my new/real self through this process. :-) You go girl! As hard as this might be right now, it will get better. You now have the opportunity to create the life you really want. Go for it honey! I wish you the very best! (hug) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 You go girl! As hard as this might be right now, it will get better. You now have the opportunity to create the life you really want. Go for it honey! Thanks Margee!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Wow, we had parallel dating lives! We also got the goofy idea that we should do nothing more than hold hands prior to the wedding day, and our first (very awkward) kiss was at the altar. Our sex life was very vanilla and not particularly satisfying for many years. I'm one of the lucky ones, though. Both my husband and I were misfits in the Christian world and we both became agnostics within just a couple years of each other. Our experimentation with sex started around that time, too, and it's been much more fun since. Sorry you had to go through so many years of dissatisfaction before realizing you needed to get out. Belief causes the waste of so many years of freedom and enjoyment. It burns me up realizing what joy we could have experienced during those years (also about 20 years). Good luck on the rest of your years! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangitbobby83 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 If you haven't already, go find a hot man (or woman!) and have gratuitous sexual encounters. When a christian accuses me of "not believe because I want to sin" I simply respond: well, it's not the reason I don't believe, but freedom from magical thinking sure does have its benefits! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangitbobby83 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Oh and BTW - Josh Harris totally borked my sisters sex life too, resulting in a failed marriage to a guy she wasn't attracted to either. My wife suffered at the hands of the purity culture. And I wasted my college age years on purity too - when looking back I had so many opportunities for some fun. Sigh. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 19, 2017 Author Share Posted February 19, 2017 Wow, we had parallel dating lives! We also got the goofy idea that we should do nothing more than hold hands prior to the wedding day, and our first (very awkward) kiss was at the altar. Our sex life was very vanilla and not particularly satisfying for many years. I'm one of the lucky ones, though. Thanks Daffodil! Such BS isn't it? Ugh. I'm glad you found your way out of CrazyLand!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 19, 2017 Author Share Posted February 19, 2017 If you haven't already, go find a hot man (or woman!) and have gratuitous sexual encounters. Done! Here's what's funny (or not funny). I always thought a book like "The Joy of Sex" (I've not read it) was simply propaganda to get us women to "put out" more--tricking us into thinking sex was not as horrible as it really was. Well. It turns out there is amazing sex to be had! WHO KNEW??????? OMG!!!!!!! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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