Tragic Life Vs. Crisis Of Faith

[Lost]

I wonder how people who experienced lots of problems, suffering, rejection, loneliness, death in their lives etc. deal with crisis of faith, leaving church that was their last hope for a better future. Last thing that brought light to their life.

 

Doubt, questioning attacks people of all kind-healthy, successful, poor, sick, people with support and without support. I imagine physically or mentally ill people who think about giving their lives to God (for whatever reason), but on the other hand they say to each other "well I can't cause science is right and I should't trust delusion even if I want".

 

Probably it's easier to deal with life after deconversion when someone leads normal, stable life, feels strong inside.

 

As I read here on Ex-C...Internet is going to end faith of many people.

 

Imagine suicidal person who spend lots of time in mental hospitals, taking lots of medication google "God can save me" or whatever and instead of finding suitable answers finds website about science and atheism. Psychiatry is based on pure science, that save my life!

 

I think that people who suffer, especially tragically on many levels are much more willing to looking for hope and solution in churches than just admire beauty of science and wonders of evolution and their mind.

 

Atheists, even the ones that are Youtubers  just mock all the time religion saying that they don't laugh at believers, but their faith...but many of them don't think about circumstances, very often tragic circumstances that lead these people to faith. Kind of like Christians say "Jesus loves sinner, but hates sin".

 

 

Atheists don't like topics connected with suffering. Churches talk about it too much.

 

I read somewhere one day one atheist's comment that "Well, my friend lost his whole family and he became a Christian".

 

How a person that lost everything can be physically and mentally stable to lead happy life as an atheist?

[Lilith666]

Do you mean to ask why someone who has suffered would turn to secularism and science instead of the promise of an invisible, all-powerful benefactor and a joyful afterlife that Christianity offers?

 

Because the promise is false. We can see this from biblical inconsistencies - for example, the Bible's god claims to be loving and all-wise, but treats people horribly (just open the Old Testament) and comes up with insane solutions to problems that he should easily have prevented (for instance, see the "fall of Adam" and God's salvation plan that took several thousand years to complete and didn't even save everyone). We're not interested in a manipulative, needy, arrogant, murderous god, no matter what he claims he has to give us. If a salesman showed up at your house with an incredible offer - say, a five-year vacation to wherever you want, all expenses paid, and all you had to do to get it was let him into your house, would you take him up on it? Let's say you really want the vacation, but this guy gives you a weird feeling. He seems very sleazy and shifty to you. Would you believe that he will deliver on his promise just because what he's offering sounds great, no matter how untrustworthy he likely is? Of course not. Regardless of the payoff it promises, no immoral religion that offers next to zero evidence for its claims should be trusted.

 

We all suffer. Most people have experienced a great deal of pain at some point in his or her life, yet so many of them choose not to be Christians. Suffering isn't a valid reason to believe in lies, no matter how enticing those lies are. Especially ones that seek to gain people's unreserved loyalty, affecting every aspect of their lives - taking their time, money, leading them into traps by teaching them a type of thinking that ultimately will harm them, such as the idea that God will tell Christians what decisions to make and they must always obey, no matter how obviously misguided those choices are.

 

Atheists criticize Christianity because they see its flaws. They understand that it is untrue and controlling and don't want anyone to stay trapped in it. This is very different from the idea of "loving the sinner but hating the sin," which tells people not to commit arbitrary "sins" because God doesn't like it. The first advises people not to believe in something; the second puts demands on them.

 

Whatever it is you're going through, I'm sorry that you're hurting. Try to take it one day at a time (but plan for the future if that is relevant, of course), remember that you are able to do what you have to do to recover. No invisible man in the sky with a terrible track record of keeping his promises can be counted on to help you through it. Get therapy if it helps. Depend on yourself. You will be OK.

[dangitbobby83]

How a person that lost everything can be physically and mentally stable to lead happy life as an atheist?

 

The same way a person who has lost everything is physically and mentally stable as a christian.

 

There is a perception, and it is spread by christianity, that somehow "believing in the christian god" will make problems in life somehow easier. 

 

This is utterly false.

 

Christians who have physical and mental stability do the exact same things a nonchristian does that makes a stable person: they seek therapy, learn new skills, meditate, go on walks, take medication and so forth. The primary difference between a christian and an atheist - the christian praises god for their healing, an atheist praises the people who were actually involved in the healing.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Some of us adopted a philosophy of life that doesn't expect things to be rosy all the time. Believers have all kinds of promises from the Bible that they claim, but then when god fails utterly to keep those promises, they are taught to make excuses like "He has a better plan for you" (Though he won't tell you what it is), "He must have wanted another angel at his throne" (instead of curing the child's sickness), etc. The promises are useless, as are the condemnations because that god is no more real than Spiderman.

 

I don't look to a magical answer to life issues, I make plans and do my best to execute them. I spent 30 years as a whole-hearted believer, full of faith, believing God for all the promises and making excuses when he was completely silent, so that I wouldn't lose my imaginary relationship with him. Eventually I realized that the god of the Bible was like the story of the Emperor's New Clothes, except not only was he naked, he didn't exist at all. We were all pretending he was there listening to us, passionately in love with us, dearly compassionate and protective of us, singing songs of devotion and wonder - all to someone who wasn't any more real than the gods of Greece and Rome. But it seems more real when others around us believe, just like all cults.

 

I have been out now for more than 9 years and far more happy and calm than when I was a believer who was always fighting an invisible spiritual war.

[Daffodil]

I was a "Christian" from birth, having been born to a pastor. I became "saved" and became devout in college, reading my bible regularly, studying it, memorizing it, praying, meeting with other believers, the whole nine yards. I deconverted in my mid-forties, so all-in-all I was a solid believer for 25ish years. In all that time I dealt with the death by cancer of my father (who, being a pastor, had hundreds of people praying for him, yet did not get cured), saw seemingly solid Christian marriages of friends fail due to infidelity, suffered infertility which never responded to my and all my friends' prayers, have lived with depression since I was a teenager, and watched from the sidelines as fellow believers went throug trial after trial with no response to prayers by the so-called loving father in heaven. Doubt was always present in the back of my mind though I tried desperately at times to rationalize it away. In all those 25 years, I never once felt that peace that passes all understanding. I just kept trying and trying to find it. Once I finally let go of belief, lo and behold, that peace fell over me like a soft gentle rain. I knew then that cancer and death are just things that exist in this world and because of that, we need to make the most of every moment we have here. I knew then that people are imperfect and make mistakes, and marriages require a lot of human effort to last, though even then they may not. I knew then that the human body is imperfect and sometimes doesn't work like it's supposed to through no one's fault. I knew then that bad things happen to EVERYONE at some point in their lives, and all we can do is just love and be loved and make the best of what we have.

[Guest]

I wonder how people who experienced lots of problems, suffering, rejection, loneliness, death in their lives etc. deal with crisis of faith, leaving church that was their last hope for a better future. Last thing that brought light to their life.

 

Doubt, questioning attacks people of all kind-healthy, successful, poor, sick, people with support and without support. I imagine physically or mentally ill people who think about giving their lives to God (for whatever reason), but on the other hand they say to each other "well I can't cause science is right and I should't trust delusion even if I want".

 

Probably it's easier to deal with life after deconversion when someone leads normal, stable life, feels strong inside.

 

As I read here on Ex-C...Internet is going to end faith of many people.

 

Imagine suicidal person who spend lots of time in mental hospitals, taking lots of medication google "God can save me" or whatever and instead of finding suitable answers finds website about science and atheism. Psychiatry is based on pure science, that save my life!

 

I think that people who suffer, especially tragically on many levels are much more willing to looking for hope and solution in churches than just admire beauty of science and wonders of evolution and their mind.

 

Atheists, even the ones that are Youtubers  just mock all the time religion saying that they don't laugh at believers, but their faith...but many of them don't think about circumstances, very often tragic circumstances that lead these people to faith. Kind of like Christians say "Jesus loves sinner, but hates sin".

 

 

Atheists don't like topics connected with suffering. Churches talk about it too much.

 

I read somewhere one day one atheist's comment that "Well, my friend lost his whole family and he became a Christian".

 

How a person that lost everything can be physically and mentally stable to lead happy life as an atheist?

Hi Lost,

 

Thanks for coming by and sharing what I see as heart-felt questions.  I am an Ex-Christian (and Ex-Mormon), now an atheist and I have a 7/10 on the Adverse Childhood Experience Score.  Every single member of my family, save my father has been sexually assaulted as a child.  First my eldest brother was assaulted when he stayed the night at a friends house, and then he subsequently developed Borderline Personality Disorder which led to racism, substance abuse, and sexual manipulation and domination.  My mother, sister and brother were all assaulted by him, including myself over the course of a year.  My father later in life we discovered that he had been living a double life, having invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into prostitutes and other illicit expenses.  My Mormon parent's divorce, with my father being ex-communicated from the Mormon church and then descending into bankruptcy and depression.  

 

I am recovering from PTSD due to issues previously mentioned, which while I was a Christian, I had thought that I had resolved.  I discovered that the religious exercise of forgiveness and recovery is far shallower and easier than the actual development of vitality un-aided by unrealistic beliefs.  I exercised, I meditated, I learned about my illness, and I was in active treatment for a long period of time. As much as the panic attacks and constant anxiety has sucked, experiencing suffering no matter if you're religious or not will either grow you or destroy you.  (usually a mixture of the both)  However, understanding the neuroscience behind my condition and the capacity to change the wiring of your brain through various means meant that I could always have the hope that I could improve.  This to me in a way gives more confidence than belief in god, in which you can feel so helpless calling out for deliverance and only have the solace of a pastor comment about the "wilderness" where we suffer and god seems ever further away.  We don't wander in a metaphorical wilderness, we exist moment-to-moment for this brief stretch of time on this planet, beings who can experience love and joy, especially in relationship with each other.  

 

The realization that we are organisms shouldn't terrify us, but cause us to have compassion and patience with ourselves as we aren't wholly able to control all our behaviors and choices, let alone our fears and anxieties sometimes.  As you noted in the OP, human beings evolved to have automatic fear responses and low moods for the obvious benefit to survival it would have that when you got sick your body put you in a low mood where you would expend as little energy as possible.  

 

Very recently, my wife and I's close friends (who are devoutly Christian) lost their child in the late 3rd trimester.  I attended the service at the church and volunteered to help with the setup and take down, which gave me the opportunity to talk to many people about how they were processing death.  For myself, I have developed a perspective of acceptance, that death is just as natural a state as life is, and I can't extend myself beyond this life despite whatever heroic attempts we all make to give cultural artifacts to give us immortality.  Regardless of what one believes, their child was dead in their arms, and they are still recovering in how to come to terms with it.  If you know the Bible, than you know how David marveled at how God had knit him together in his mother's womb being actively and intimately involved with his conception.  Understanding this with the reality of a child killed due to health complications from a Christian mother who happened to have anxiety and depression.  Understanding all that, within a Christian framework, I think gives you only way out and that is to just claim that "his ways are higher than our ways and we will see our child again."  

 

As much as religion helps people who suffer, it causes them to develop bubbles around their lives where the beliefs which sustain resilience to the suffering cannot possibly be questioned else panic would ensue.  The thing is, it isn't really evolution or science which comes to mind for an atheist when they are suffering, we're human beings who love other people and for most of us our lives find their meaning locally.  The joy of a moment shared with my son laughing together is not lessened because there is not some eternal cosmic significance, it is not about finding some kind of window to the transcendent but to be present and content with what is happening around you.  

 

Whatever you decide, my hope is that you would be honest with yourself and not cling to anything just because you think the plunge would be too painful.  I tried to be a Christian again for a long stretch of time after my faith had eroded significantly, and was a Liberal Christian (formerly being Evangelical), but I couldn't really pray anymore and believe the assertions of the Bible or its own trustworthiness.  I had to accept what I really believed, I realized I couldn't dismiss or cover up my own doubts, nor could I sufficiently answer them despite all of my development in apologetics and theology (was going to be a Pastor).  I'm not sure how significant your doubts are, but I agree that if you stay on the internet and investigate other views that it will increase the chances that your own perspectives might be challenged.  

 

Is that so bad a thing?

 

Warm Regards, 

TS

[Astreja]

How a person that lost everything can be physically and mentally stable to lead happy life as an atheist?

 

IMO, happiness is easiest to find when you align your life with reality.  Rather than waiting for a deity to save your butt, you face problems head-on and learn to save yourself.

 

Works much better, and you don't end up in a state of cognitive dissonance as you try to reconcile hope with despair.

[yunea]

I'm not very stable right now. I had very hard times as a believer too.

 

As a believer, I thought depression and anxiety are God pruning harmful things out of my life and it hurts because my selfish flesh doesn't know what is good for it.

 

As an atheist, I know I have ptsd and dissociation and it comes from real trauma - the horror of actually blaming someone, people, instead of my own stupid flesh that doesn't know God's plans! - and my bouts of anxiety come from within and they mean I feel bad right now, they do not mean god is pruning me or anything.

The reality is that I may take years to recover.

But the reality also is that this is not "meant to be", not a part of a big plan, not spiritual. Shit happened to me because people made decisions that ended up taking my personal safety away as a child. That's it. There's nothing more to it.

 

I can't hand over my problems to angels anymore, or sit back, put myself aside and wait for "the plan" to unfold. In other words I can't avoid myself.

It is a horror.

But I also have already learned more about loving and accepting myself, by myself, more than I ever did as a believer. We are not filthy sinful worms who need someone to die for us to be allowed in front of someone. We are deserving of love right here and now, most of all from ourselves.

[LordProtectorOliverCromwell]

I was a "Christian" from birth, having been born to a pastor. I became "saved" and became devout in college, reading my bible regularly, studying it, memorizing it, praying, meeting with other believers, the whole nine yards. I deconverted in my mid-forties, so all-in-all I was a solid believer for 25ish years. In all that time I dealt with the death by cancer of my father (who, being a pastor, had hundreds of people praying for him, yet did not get cured), saw seemingly solid Christian marriages of friends fail due to infidelity, suffered infertility which never responded to my and all my friends' prayers, have lived with depression since I was a teenager, and watched from the sidelines as fellow believers went throug trial after trial with no response to prayers by the so-called loving father in heaven. Doubt was always present in the back of my mind though I tried desperately at times to rationalize it away. In all those 25 years, I never once felt that peace that passes all understanding. I just kept trying and trying to find it. Once I finally let go of belief, lo and behold, that peace fell over me like a soft gentle rain. I knew then that cancer and death are just things that exist in this world and because of that, we need to make the most of every moment we have here. I knew then that people are imperfect and make mistakes, and marriages require a lot of human effort to last, though even then they may not. I knew then that the human body is imperfect and sometimes doesn't work like it's supposed to through no one's fault. I knew then that bad things happen to EVERYONE at some point in their lives, and all we can do is just love and be loved and make the best of what we have.

My Dad was also a pastor and he died of a very rare form of cancer in Novembrer 2016. Guess that was how God chose to reward his "servant". A "prophet" even told my mother that my dad would be healed in eight days. A few weeks later he was dead.

[Lost]

Thank You ALL for your replies and sharing your perspective on this subject

TrueScotsman thank You for your nice attitude towards my questions.  It's terrible what happened to You and Your family, because of Your father's actions.

I need to admit that somehow I feel sorry for him too. Maybe Your dad had dreams, goals and wanted to be free, express who he is, but instead ruined himself and his family  It must be terrible to be rejected by anyone- no place in church and no place in the world.

yunea- Your care about people here on Ex-C always gives me positive feelings and You helped me a lot more with understanding personality disorders and states of mind connected with depersonalization, alter ego and so-on. Hope that I will find more people in my life who truly understand nature of mysterious mental disorders.

I think that even nowadays people both in churches and in secular communities don't pay that much attention towards mentally ill people or different hard-to-explain disorders. Religious people say it's from demons and secularists say to go to psychiatrist and he/she solves your problems. In this whole struggle I think that the most helpful thing is to find people who go through this battle, who truly understand and the ones that give support.

Daffodil and LordProtectorOliverCromwell- It's sad that Your fathers who truly believed in Jesus died so fast. Hope that You feel better although pain may still remain. As I mentioned many times on Ex-C, I lost my mum when I was almost 9 years old. In my opinion I was the last girl who should lost her mother, cause my gradmothers and granfathers died much before my mum. It was too difficult to just be OK with life and being raised only by dad who nowadays has lots of financtial and health problems, becauase of me. After hit of doubts related to faith I've gone crazy, rebelious, can't control myself as when I had faith. I have never met girl in my situation, but I'm glad that I discovered some time ago book called "Motherless Daughters" written by Hope Edelman and found American support group on facebook. I go to psychologist  from October 2016 and still go to church that don't know about my crisis of faith. I am surrounded by other doubts and my head suffer everyday, because of that.

In my case crisis of faith attacted me in an unfair and ugly way as my mother's death. Now, I can't find satifaction in church and in secular world too. I'm kind of Maladaptive Daydreamer, so imaginary people in my head, my soulmates seem to make me feel much happier than people in reality, who focus only on casual stuff.

It's terrible to have INFP type of personality. 

dangitbobby83 I knew about things that You mentioned far before I have started this topic. I created this post to not to find about it what Your wrote, but to make us think about people who go through much bigger and deeper shit that we all can imagine. I noticed that ICD-10 International Classification of Diseases is full of diseases that we don't talk about daily in society and the same with DSM-V Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, yet there is plenty of poor souls that suffer from them.

My heart goes especially to orphans of the world-no family, no loving memories

Thank You also Astreja, Fuego and Lilith666 for sharing Your important opinions on this subject

 

[Lilith666]

No problem

[Guest]

On 2/23/2017 at 1:29 PM, Lost said:

Thank You ALL for your replies and sharing your perspective on this subject

TrueScotsman thank You for your nice attitude towards my questions.  

 

No problem Lost, all of us have had questions, some of mine more silly than others perhaps.

 

 

Quote

It's terrible what happened to You and Your family, because of Your father's actions.

I need to admit that somehow I feel sorry for him too. Maybe Your dad had dreams, goals and wanted to be free, express who he is, but instead ruined himself and his family 

That's the thing about family issues, is that they haunt you in the mirror just as much as they haunt you in your mind.  He seemed to have dreams when he was an adolescent, but he never had very many ambitions and really just wanted a simple life.  His journey to ruin was a long one, and I am only now starting to get a deeper understanding of who he is and what he and the rest of my family has gone through.  It is remarkable what happens when you open your mouth to speak truth, hard truth, to your family.  I went a whole year before I told my parents or siblings or anyone beyond 4 individuals about my condition.  That I think was the wrong decision, and I was surprised to learn just how related to me my siblings are. haha

 

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 It must be terrible to be rejected by anyone- no place in church and no place in the world.

At the same time, I think to take any meaningful stance in life means facing rejection from someone.  It's the Hamiltonian principle of, "If you stand for nothing Burr, what'll you fall for."  Besides, someone like myself can only handle a smaller community in my life, I don't know where extroverts find the time.

 

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It's terrible to have INFP type of personality. 

I'm an INFJ, which makes sense given the tone and responses you've given.  You seem very sincere and thoughtful, asking excellent questions and responding with a graciousness.

 

You might not be totally sure about what the meaning of all of this is right now, whether if there is a god who loves you, or what you might perceive as a cold universe.  I think it might be a good idea to have gratitude for the character you're developing in going through this process, you're learning difficult lessons and delving into foundational matters of what it means to be human.  From what I perceive you're respecting the journey as well, which is key.

 

Hope you find your way,

TS

[Lost]

On 8.03.2017 at 4:46 AM, TrueScotsman said:

 

I'm an INFJ, which makes sense given the tone and responses you've given.  You seem very sincere and thoughtful, asking excellent questions and responding with a graciousness.

 

You might not be totally sure about what the meaning of all of this is right now, whether if there is a god who loves you, or what you might perceive as a cold universe.  I think it might be a good idea to have gratitude for the character you're developing in going through this process, you're learning difficult lessons and delving into foundational matters of what it means to be human.  From what I perceive you're respecting the journey as well, which is key.

 

Hope you find your way,

TS

 

Thank You TrueScotsman