Will Atheists Ever Be A Majority? How It Might Happen...

[♦ Fuego ♦]

"If she's interested I'll take her step by step down the entire rabbit hole."

That's wonderful. I remember being surprised when the foggy glasses of Christianity came off and "The World" simply became the world that I was free to explore and enjoy. Reality hadn't changed, but how I saw it was so very different and free. That is a sharp contrast to the claims of religion that we are the ones who are blind and wallowing in the mud of filth.

[RealityCheck]

No, religion will never disappear from the planet as long as we are Homo Sapiens.  If one religion begins to wane in one part of the globe, something will fill that vacuum.  If could be Islam pouring in to a mostly secular Europe.  It could be people taking up other equally dogmatic belief systems post deconversion.  It takes a strong mindset to live without faiths of any kind.  Since I've become an atheist and my view point has become completely naturalistic, I've questioned the point of everything.  I've decided that there isn't really a purpose for procreating for example as passing on my genes doesn't merit compromising this brief window of consciousness that we get.  I wonder if others have come to the same conclusion in the countless generations going back and hence, their genes making them more prone to secularism died off.  I don't know, I'm not an expert on the subject.

[TABA]

1 hour ago, RealityCheck said:

No, religion will never disappear from the planet as long as we are Homo Sapiens.  If one religion begins to wane in one part of the globe, something will fill that vacuum.  If could be Islam pouring in to a mostly secular Europe.  It could be people taking up other equally dogmatic belief systems post deconversion.  It takes a strong mindset to live without faiths of any kind.  Since I've become an atheist and my view point has become completely naturalistic, I've questioned the point of everything.  I've decided that there isn't really a purpose for procreating for example as passing on my genes doesn't merit compromising this brief window of consciousness that we get.  I wonder if others have come to the same conclusion in the countless generations going back and hence, their genes making them more prone to secularism died off.  I don't know, I'm not an expert on the subject.

 

I agree that religion will never disappear.  While there may not exactly be a god-shaped hole in all our hearts, human beings are clearly predisposed to supernatural beliefs.  The suggestion in my OP though was rather that atheists might one day outnumber theists, which I think is a much more realistic goal.  And giving up theism doesn't require having no religion at all; the rise of non-theistic religions is quite possible - and preferable to any belief system where morality is handed down by a deity.  Much suffering is caused by people doing God's will.

 

As for reproduction, are you thinking that atheists are less likely to reproduce?  I for one would be MORE likely to do so, actually, both because I'd want part of me to live on, but also because I relish the idea of raising children without religion, and doing my small part to tip the balance against theism. 

 

 

[TABA]

Good for you, josh!  Much better that she find a guy who can eventually lead her out of the building, than somebody who might just show her to a better padded room in the same weird house!  I hope you'll keep us updated on this, even if it's a years-long process. 

 

[RealityCheck]

9 minutes ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

I agree that religion will never disappear.  While there may not exactly be a god-shaped hole in all our hearts, human beings are clearly predisposed to supernatural beliefs.  The suggestion in my OP though was rather that atheists might one day outnumber theists, which I think is a much more realistic goal.  And giving up theism doesn't require having no religion at all; the rise of non-theistic religions is quite possible - and preferable to any belief system where morality is handed down by a deity.  Much suffering is caused by people doing God's will.

 

As for reproduction, are you thinking that atheists are less likely to reproduce?  I for one would be MORE likely to do so, actually, both because I'd want part of me to live on, but also because I relish the idea of raising children without religion, and doing my small part to tip the balance against theism. 

 

 

Countries that have a majority secular population also tend to have birthrates below replacement level.  Natural selection seems to favor the religious with Joe Baptist Blow in the south having his quiverfull of kids and Abdul in the middle east having ten children by different wives.  99% of my religious friends went off to have a family of 2+ at a relatively young age while those with no faith tend to reach their 30s with none.  Evolution doesn't care how amazing a mostly non religious world would be, it only favors those who propagate their genes, period. 

[TABA]

49 minutes ago, RealityCheck said:

Countries that have a majority secular population also tend to have birthrates below replacement level.  Natural selection seems to favor the religious with Joe Baptist Blow in the south having his quiverfull of kids and Abdul in the middle east having ten children by different wives.  99% of my religious friends went off to have a family of 2+ at a relatively young age while those with no faith tend to reach their 30s with none.  Evolution doesn't care how amazing a mostly non religious world would be, it only favors those who propagate their genes, period. 

 

You're right there, I'm sorry to say.   Maybe one hopeful fact is that as populations grow more affluent, they grow more secular and breed less, even the faithful.  But the net effect probably benefits theism: while the irreligious are fornicating with birth-control, Christians and Muslims are getting a head-start on creating a new generation to be indoctrinated.  It's their biggest advantage, I'd say:  the prohibition on sex outside of marriage, and the widespread opposition to birth-control.  Now I'm depressed.  Fuck.  I'm gonna have to eat a baby to cheer myself up...

 

As I think about it all though, this is all the more reason to help the Kens of the world (the vaguely-theist guy in my OP) come off the fence and align their beliefs with their secular lifestyles, so their kids won't be indoctrinated too.

 

[Joshpantera]

7 hours ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

You're right there, I'm sorry to say.   Maybe one hopeful fact is that as populations grow more affluent, they grow more secular and breed less, even the faithful.  But the net effect probably benefits theism: while the irreligious are fornicating with birth-control, Christians and Muslims are getting a head-start on creating a new generation to be indoctrinated.  It's their biggest advantage, I'd say:  the prohibition on sex outside of marriage, and the widespread opposition to birth-control.  Now I'm depressed.  Fuck.  I'm gonna have to eat a baby to cheer myself up...

 

As I think about it all though, this is all the more reason to help the Kens of the world (the vaguely-theist guy in my OP) come off the fence and align their beliefs with their secular lifestyles, so their kids won't be indoctrinated too.

 

This is too simplistic. While the religious may be breeding more, the polls are showing that the religious are also loosing their children over to unaffiliated status and non-belief. One of the things I was discussing with my friend is how our old SDA academy has dwindled into insignificance just between the early 90's till now. The catholic church has been run down to the third world countries as it's last strangle hold. There's an abundance of information showing religious decline. And it's not hard to understand. I'm from generations deep christianity as I'm sure most of us here are. It doesn't matter how deeply religion was embedded in our DNA. We kicked it nonetheless. A lot of people are doing the same and it's a detectable movement. And because religion tries to conflict with science, they loose converts all the time who decide that science is the way to go and simply leave. This is one reason that they struggle to keep their children in the churches. Kids are smart, really smart these days. 

 

My step daughter once came to me and asked, "how was the world really made? And don't tell me some lie like Jesus made it." 

 

I can't tell you how proud of her I was at that moment. She was 9 years old! So I told her ok, you obviously want to know how things really work and I'll do my best to let you know what I know about it. And I explained to her the science of the matter. And she seemed to get it. The kid could tell that all of the Jesus shit she was hearing from others was fairy tale oriented, like Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and whatever. 

 

One concern of my old high school friend is her children and what to tell them. I told her not to worry about that right now. Now is the time for digesting information and just taking it all in. Later, how to approach it with others will become more clear with time. She's an old dog trying to learn new tricks. It's a completely different situation than with the children. But I'm also so very proud of her for intuitively figuring out the problems with her own church and reaching out to some one in an effort to put right where once went wrong. It's beautiful...

[TABA]

12 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

This is too simplistic. While the religious may be breeding more, the polls are showing that the religious are also loosing their children over to unaffiliated status and non-belief. One of the things I was discussing with my friend is how our old SDA academy has dwindled into insignificance just between the early 90's till now. The catholic church has been run down to the third world countries as it's last strangle hold. There's an abundance of information showing religious decline. And it's not hard to understand. I'm from generations deep christianity as I'm sure most of us here are. It doesn't matter how deeply religion was embedded in our DNA. We kicked it nonetheless. A lot of people are doing the same and it's a detectable movement. And because religion tries to conflict with science, they loose converts all the time who decide that science is the way to go and simply leave. This is one reason that they struggle to keep their children in the churches. Kids are smart, really smart these days. 

 

My step daughter once came to me and asked, "how was the world really made? And don't tell me some lie like Jesus made it." 

 

I can't tell you how proud of her I was at that moment. She was 9 years old! So I told her ok, you obviously want to know how things really work and I'll do my best to let you know what I know about it. And I explained to her the science of the matter. And she seemed to get it. The kid could tell that all of the Jesus shit she was hearing from others was fairy tale oriented, like Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and whatever. 

 

One concern of my old high school friend is her children and what to tell them. I told her not to worry about that right now. Now is the time for digesting information and just taking it all in. Later, how to approach it with others will become more clear with time. She's an old dog trying to learn new tricks. It's a completely different situation than with the children. But I'm also so very proud of her for intuitively figuring out the problems with her own church and reaching out to some one in an effort to put right where once went wrong. It's beautiful...

 

I realized after I'd written that, that I was overlooking a few advantages on our side.  I think one of the keys to the future is to break the cycle of indoctrination.  Christians have long lamented the fact that even kids raised (indoctrinated) in the church have a high rate of falling away once they leave home.  On the other hand, I think that if atheists do some basic things correctly, their children are unlikely to become religious as adults.  Kids should learn about religions, and the more religions they learn about the better, frankly.  They should know what theists believe, and why their parents don't believe those things.  And I think it helps for parents not to be too anti-religious, or even anti-religious at all; we all know what the rebellion effect can do to kids growing up!

[Joshpantera]

I agree. I've known of instances where anti-religious liberals wound up with kids becoming conservative religionist's. I told the girls about the contradictions in Genesis. I had them read to me out loud and then asked them if they noticed anything. And then showed them all the myriad of problems. In the end they've grown up knowing that anyone trying to proselytize fundamentalism is an immediate red flag. No less a red a flag then a pervert or anything else..

[TABA]

22 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

I agree. I've known of instances where anti-religious liberals wound up with kids becoming conservative religionist's. I told the girls about the contradictions in Genesis. I had them read to me out loud and then asked them if they noticed anything. And then showed them all the myriad of problems. In the end they've grown up knowing that anyone trying to proselytize fundamentalism is an immediate red flag. No less a red a flag then a pervert or anything else..

 

How old are your kids / stepkids, josh?  What is their attitude to gods and religions?  I only have the one stepson, his Mom and I raised him and he's in college now.  I wish he had been raised without religious indoctrination, but unfortunately we did the whole church / Sunday school, youth group thing.  At the same time, our home life was not very devout: we said grace but that was about it.  At the time (I cringe at this now) I felt bad because we were not doing more to instill Christian faith in him.  Actually I think that was another symptom of my inner skepticism, like my lack of motivation to convert others to Jesus.  I felt bad about that too, but now I'm just relieved I didn't recruit any believers...  Anyway, the kid stopped going to church at some point in High School, and as far as I know hasn't darkened the door of a church since.  He knows about my deconversion but hasn't had much to say about it at all.  His mom is convinced he still believes in God but I'm not so sure.  I'm glad he's not devout, but of course I'd prefer if he outright rejected god-belief.  But he's only 24.  I sure as hell was not fully-formed at that age...

 

[Joshpantera]

The girls are now a junior in high school and 3rd year in college. Their grand parents are fundies. But their mother didn't enforce strict regulations on them. When I got together with their mother we talked about the church and I told her that I had my membership terminated shortly after leaving academy. She immediately stopped attending when she knew that I was out of it. She read up on some of my books and literature and shared it with her sister and a few friends. They all stopped as well. No one really cared for the ridiculousness of the fundie up bringing. And upon the example of myself who left and is out spoken about it, she had the courage to cut out. None of them are interested in church anymore.

 

 

[hockeyfan70]

What's encouraging to me is the breakdown of those who believe and don't believe and how religion has declined rapidly in younger generations. I don't think we'll ever see the end of religion and as one person put we may see a substitute for Christianity if it disappears, but it is encouraging.

 

Of course, I thought places like the Moose Lodge or other places I equate with old people would die out once older generations die off, but they're still around too.

[TABA]

3 hours ago, hockeyfan70 said:

What's encouraging to me is the breakdown of those who believe and don't believe and how religion has declined rapidly in younger generations. I don't think we'll ever see the end of religion and as one person put we may see a substitute for Christianity if it disappears, but it is encouraging.

 

Of course, I thought places like the Moose Lodge or other places I equate with old people would die out once older generations die off, but they're still around too.

 

It IS encouraging to see the decline of Christianity among millennials. I just hope they replace it with critical thinking and true tolerance - meaning tolerance of unpopular opinions and speech, not just tolerance of lifestyle choices.  I am not so confident.  Nature abhors a vacuum, and religious woo could easily give way to socio-political woo among those who are easily led. 

[Joshpantera]

Hopefully we don't end up like Idiocracy...

 

 

[TABA]

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 7:48 AM, Joshpantera said:

The girls are now a junior in high school and 3rd year in college. Their grand parents are fundies. But their mother didn't enforce strict regulations on them. When I got together with their mother we talked about the church and I told her that I had my membership terminated shortly after leaving academy. She immediately stopped attending when she knew that I was out of it. She read up on some of my books and literature and shared it with her sister and a few friends. They all stopped as well. No one really cared for the ridiculousness of the fundie up bringing. And upon the example of myself who left and is out spoken about it, she had the courage to cut out. None of them are interested in church anymore.

 

 

 

Glad to hear that the girls had two parents who saw eye-to-eye on this.  It's good also to hear that you influenced several people to make the break.  This is something I strongly believe and have posted about elsewhere: there is a large population of nominal believers who would not need too much nudging and encouragement to step out of Christianity.  It's good for them to finally align their belief system to the way they live anyway, and it's doubly good for their offspring who will be spared from indoctrination.

[Joshpantera]

I met with my old friend over the weekend at the beach. I was going to surf and hang out with her a little bit but the surf shit out - near gale onshore's all weekend. So I opted to sit on the beach and talk instead. And we went over quite a bit. I opened dialogue about how after figuring out what was wrong with SDAism, I decided to dig deeper to the origins of christianity and judaism. She was receptive enough to hang with me for a discourse on christian origins. I didn't go into the question of how historical or mythical jesus was, I just pointed out the scholarship of Bart Ehrman in terms of who wrote the NT, how late the remaining manuscripts date to, and the notion that whatever christianity might have been at the outset, it's a far cry from that now in terms of what people are preaching and promoting. I told her that I suspect that it was much more mystical in nature than it is now and that now it's hardly more than a political venture. That wasn't too shocking. She's currently going to continue reading through Joseph Campbell for a better understanding of world religion in general. I'll see what she thinks of that. 

[Loopylou]

On 2/22/2017 at 3:10 AM, Jeff said:

It's happened in some countries but I think that as long as Islam is the religion of majority of terrorists, folks will feel the need to battle the false religion with their true one.

Gak.

 

I wish it would happen but then Americans seem dead set on being religious in their fervor about their political party so... I'll be dead before Star Trek world happens

 

I hope it's okay to jump into this at a late stage -- I'm new here, so forgive me if it isn't. I live in Australia, which, according to surveys like this one (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/14/map-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries/) has about 58% non-believers. I think the percentage of churchgoers is about 15%, but more than the 58% identify themselves as Christian at least in a cultural sense (the sense in which Richard Dawkins is an Anglican). So, it's basically happened here already. Church going is certainly not seen as necessary or even normal, and most of the churches are closing down. The one I just left had a congregation on a good Sunday of 12-14. Another church close by has a congregation of two.

 

I think that it's a good thing in lots of ways, but it does mean that the only Christians anyone hears about here tend to be the loud-mouthed fundamentalists. (But that turns more people off, so probably a good thing.) I don't think people are becoming more rational or critical thinking though, as there's plenty of NewAge nonsense around.

 

There seems to be a downside though in that in rejecting Christianity some people can be left with a moral vacuum. For example, I recently did a university course on ethics in journalism, and one of the questions was about what ethical principles would you use to decide how and what to write about other people. I said I would simply use the golden rule of "Do unto others as you would have done to you." What amazed me was that many of the other students had never heard of this and thought it was my idea. The golden rule came to me through Christianity, although it didn't originate there, but the thing is that it's no longer coming to people at all, and I think that means in rejecting Christianity we may have thrown an important baby out with the bathwater. And I know, you can be a good atheist and good Christians would be good anyway, but at least it's given me a mantra and a basic principle to live by. I reject Christianity now, but I'm keeping the golden rule.

[Joshpantera]

I think in time we'll see the same here in the US with non-belief tipping over the 50% mark. It seems a likely outcome. How long can people go on in the modern, technologically advancing world believing that fairy tale stories are literally true, or that they symbolize something significant enough to warrant their continued existence? 

 

The golden rule of common sense, yeah, it's not original to christianity. With just a little thought any one can quickly see that doing unto others is a good position to start out from. Turning the other cheek, another one. Even if christianity up and died tomorrow there's still reason to continue promoting ideas like doing unto others. Since Jesus nor anyone from the christian mythology invented these things whole cloth, I don't think it matters one bit whether or not christianity takes credit for the insight. It's relevant as a human social code of conduct regardless of the religious influence. 

 

Have these class mates become raging assholes doing everything to others that they wouldn't want done to themselves in the absence of knowing the Golden Rule? 

 

If so, then it seems important to keep telling people about it at least from a secular point of view, for the sake of human social interaction. 

 

If not, then it seems that it doesn't matter any ways because it's just common sense whether or not people are familiar with the coined terminology or history of the saying.  

 

 

[Loopylou]

13 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Have these class mates become raging assholes doing everything to others that they wouldn't want done to themselves in the absence of knowing the Golden Rule? 

 

 

No, I don't think so, although they mostly seemed concerned about whether what they said could lead to litigation or not rather than it being fair, just, or something they'd like said about them. I'm not sure about it being common sense -- I think that needs to be renamed now as it doesn't seem to be common at all!

[Joshpantera]

I think you're right. It's not universal common sense as your example seems to demonstrate. 

 

I should re think this one. My statement probably only pertains to a philosophical standpoint where the people in question are into deep thought and contemplation. In that one sense it's a common sense idea to treat others the way you'd want to be treated. But Billy Bob down on the corner may not have the where with all to come up with it on his own. That's where the church comes in. Billy Bob gets the philosophy he wouldn't have gotten otherwise down at the church, or from momma or grandma. But if Billy Bob were to enter contemplation and play things out within his own mind, he could easily come up with the Golden Rule on his own without the church. 

 

To sharpen myself up a bit, I think going forward I'll treat the Golden Rule only as common sense from a philosophical perspective.  

[Joshpantera]

Here's a closer look at the Golden Rule and how apologists have tried to bolster christianity's version of it above those that came before:

 

http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2009/08/golden-rule-and-christian-apologetics.html

 

I have run across not a few evangelical Christian apologists who have argued that their religion is "superior" because Jesus preached the Golden Rule, "All things therefore that you want people to DO to you, DO thus to them" (Matthew 7:12), while other ancient teachers merely taught the negative version of that rule: "Do NOT do unto others what you would NOT like done to yourself."

Christian apologists such as C.S. Lewis and William Barclay even cited numerous quotations of the negative Golden Rule from ancient sources to make the contrast appear more stark between what Christianity taught and what the rest of the world taught:

"Do not impose on others what you do not desire others to impose upon you." (Confucius, The Analects. Roughly 500 BCE.

Hindu sacred literature: "Let no man do to another that which would be repugnant to himself." (Mahabharata, bk. 5, ch. 49, v. 57)

"Hurt not others in ways you yourself would find hurtful." (Udana-Varga, 5.18)

Zoroastrian sacred literature: "Human nature is good only when it does not do unto another whatever is not good for its own self." (Dadistan-I-Dinik, 94:5; in Muller, chapter 94, vol. 18, p. 269)

Buddhist sacred literature: "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." (Udanavargu, 5:18, Tibetan Dhammapada, 1983)

The Greek historian Herodotus: ". if I choose I may rule over you. But what I condemn in another I will, if I may, avoid myself."
(Herodotus, The Histories, bk. III, ch. 142. Roughly 430 BCE.)

Isocrates, the Greek orator: "What things make you angry when you suffer them at the hands of others, do not you do to other people."

 

I think it would be a good idea for kids to be exposed to the full scope history of treating others in ways they'd like to be treated and how it appeared in various religions leading eventually into it's inclusion in christianity. And emphasize how it's relevant to believers and non-believers in god alike because it's a human social code of conduct more so than anything to do with gods handing down wisdom. I find it odd that so many kids are oblivious in the absence of a christian majority. 

[JadedAtheist]

I think if you live in the US it might be hard to imagine whether or not the majority of the population will be unbelievers, but living in Australia this is pretty much my reality already. Same goes with pretty much every other western country out there aside from the US. I mean, I know there are certainly large portions of the population that identify as "Christian" but outside of those I met at church I don't know anybody really who goes to church at all, let alone regularly. It might take a while to happen in the US, but for the most part I think in a lot of western countries the battle is pretty much won.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I feel that Christianity will fade out long before Islam. The reason is because the only way to truly deconvert is to find out the truth. Most nations that are predominantly christian have more freedom than the middle eastern countries who's rulers control even the internet. Sharia law is a sad thing.

     If their people started deconverting due to information on the Internet then they would simply outlaw it's use and kill the deconverted ones. The age old tactic of keeping your population dumb so you can rule unquestioned. Christianity did it for over a 1000 years through the Catholic Church. And history tends to repeat itself. Islamic rulers won't give up that power easily.

 

DB

[★ Citsonga ★]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

I feel that Christianity will fade out long before Islam. The reason is because the only way to truly deconvert is to find out the truth. Most nations that are predominantly christian have more freedom than the middle eastern countries who's rulers control even the internet. Sharia law is a sad thing.

     If their people started deconverting due to information on the Internet then they would simply outlaw it's use and kill the deconverted ones. The age old tactic of keeping your population dumb so you can rule unquestioned. Christianity did it for over a 1000 years through the Catholic Church. And history tends to repeat itself. Islamic rulers won't give up that power easily.

 

DB

 

It also seems that Muslims on average have more children than Christians.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, Citsonga said:

 

It also seems that Muslims on average have more children than Christians.

 

There are conspiracy theories that say that's how they take over a country, they just breed out the majority. I don't know how true that is but it seems like a good tactic if your patient enough.