Does 'Good To Eat' Mean Morally Good?

[bornagainathiest]

Hello.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/kylies-evidence-challenge.7990246/page-8

I was just skimming thru threads over at Christianforums.com and came across this interesting exchange between Skreeper (an atheist) and the Christian -57.  They get into the events in the garden of Eden and in post # 149, -57 puts this question to Skreeper.

Will you also argue that Adam and Eve didn't know good considering the name of the tree was the knowledge of GOOD and Evil?

When Skreeper answers, 'Yes',  -57 responds...

Gen 2:9 tells us they knew what was pleasant to the sight and good for food. That was prior to eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They obviously had a limited knowlede to good and evil. They knew enough to understand that it was not good to eat from....yet Eve was deceived into believing it was good to eat.

 

Skreeper didn't pick up on what -57 did with Gen 2 : 9 and then the thread goes off into other territory and other issues.  But now I'm intrigued.  In modern American English, when we say that fruit is good to eat, we mean that it is ripe and edible and will be sweet to the taste.   We don't mean that the fruit has a moral value.  We don't mean that the fruit is morally good.  Nor do we mean that if a person understands a fruit is good to eat - they therefore understand the concepts of moral good and moral evil.  Yet -57 seems to saying that because Eve knew the fruit was 'good to eat', she therefore had a limited knowledge of good and evil before the serpent spoke to her, in Genesis 3 : 1.

So, can anyone help me out here, please?  How is the word 'good' being used in the Eden narrative?  Does 'good to eat' equate with morally good or are they two different concepts?  And in Genesis 2 : 18, when God says that it is not good for the man to be alone, how is God using the word, 'good'?  Does He mean it in a moral sense (it's an evil thing for the man to be alone) or in a tragic sense (it's a sad thing for the man to be alone) or in a nourishment sense (it's an unripe thing for the man to be alone) ...?

Any help given would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

BAA.

 

 

 

 

[sdelsolray]

Well BAA, you've already identified it.  There are many different, albeit somewhat overlapping, definitions for the word "good" (see below).  It  is used as a noun, adjective and adverb.  The questioner (Skreeper) was obviously using it as a noun in the "moral" sense.  The response from poster Christin -57 used it as an adjective in the "quality" sense.  Although they are focusing on the same word, they are talking past each other by using two different meanings for the same word.

good

ɡo͝od/

adjective

adjective: good; comparative adjective: better; superlative adjective: best

1. 1. 

   to be desired or approved of.

   "we live at peace with each other, which is good"

   synonyms:

   healthy, fine, sound, tip-top, hale and hearty, fit, robust, sturdy, strong, vigorous

   antonyms:

   poor, ill

   • pleasing and welcome.

     "she was pleased to hear good news about him"
   • expressing approval.

     "the play had good reviews"
2. 2. 

   having the qualities required for a particular role.

   "the schools here are good"

   synonyms:

   fine, superior, quality;

   antonyms:

   bad, inept, unconvincing

   • appropriate to a particular purpose.

     "this is a good month for planting seeds"

     synonyms:

     convenient, suitable, appropriate, fitting, fit; More

     antonyms:

     inconvenient

   • (of language) with correct grammar and pronunciation.

     "she speaks good English"
   • strictly adhering to or fulfilling all the principles of a particular cause, religion, or party.

     "a good Catholic girl"

     synonyms:

     close, intimate, dear, bosom, special, best, firm, valued, treasured; More

   • (of a ticket) valid.

     "the ticket is good for travel from May to September"
3. 3. 

   possessing or displaying moral virtue.

   "I've met many good people who made me feel ashamed of my own shortcomings"

   synonyms:

   virtuous, righteous, upright, upstanding, moral, ethical, high-minded, principled; More

   antonyms:

   wicked

   • showing kindness.

     "you are good—thank you"

     synonyms:

     kind, kindhearted, good-hearted, thoughtful, generous, charitable, magnanimous, gracious; More

     antonyms:

     unkind, thoughtless

   • obedient to rules or conventions.

     "accustom the child to being rewarded for good behavior"

     synonyms:

     well behaved, obedient, dutiful, polite, courteous, respectful, deferential, compliantMore

     antonyms:

     naughty

   • used to address or refer to people, especially in a patronizing or humorous way.

     "the good people of the city were disconcerted"
   • commanding respect.

     "he was concerned with establishing and maintaining his good name"
   • belonging or relating to a high social class.

     "he comes from a good family"
4. 4. 

   giving pleasure; enjoyable or satisfying.

   "the streets fill up with people looking for a good time"

   synonyms:

   enjoyable, pleasant, agreeable, pleasurable, delightful, great, nice, lovely; More

   antonyms:

   unpleasant, terrible, bad, inclement

   • pleasant to look at; attractive.

     "you're looking pretty good"
   • (of clothes) smart and suitable for formal wear.

     "he went upstairs to change out of his good suit"

     synonyms:

     best, finest, nicest; More

     antonyms:

     casual, everyday

5. 5. 

   thorough.

   "the attic needed a good cleaning"

   • used to emphasize that a number is at least as great as one claims.

     "they're a good twenty years younger"

     synonyms:

     whole, full, entire, complete, solid "we waited a good hour"

   • used to emphasize a following adjective.

     "we had a good long hug"
   • fairly large.

     "a good crowd"

     synonyms:

     considerable, sizable, substantial, appreciable, significant; More

     antonyms:

     small

6. 6. 

   used in conjunction with the name of God or a related expression as an exclamation of extreme surprise or anger.

   "good heavens!"

noun

noun: good; plural noun: goods

1. 1. 

   that which is morally right; righteousness.

   "a mysterious balance of good and evil"

   synonyms:

   virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude; More

   antonyms:

   wickedness

2. 2. 

   benefit or advantage to someone or something.

   "he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"

   synonyms:

   benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being; More

   antonyms:

   disadvantage

3. 3. 

   merchandise or possessions.

   "imports of luxury goods"

   synonyms:

   merchandise, wares, stock, commodities, produce, products, articles; More

   • BRITISH

     things to be transported, as distinct from passengers.

     "a means of transporting passengers as well as goods"
   • informal

     the genuine article.

     plural noun: the goods

adverb

informal

adverb: good

1. 1. 

   well.

   "my mother could never cook this good"

[bornagainathiest]

Thanks sdelsolray.

Your help is appreciated.  

But do you happen to know anything about the way 'good' might have been used in the ancient Hebrew (Aramaic?) in which Genesis was written?  

I know a little Koine, but that's only 'good' for the New Testament.

Thanks again,

BAA.

[sdelsolray]

I have no idea.  My knowledge of original Biblical text is limited to reading what scholars have to say about it, which isn't much.  I have observed that many words in the English translations have different/tweaked meaning in the original language or are mistranslations in the first place and that many other words in the English language have identical meaning in the original language.  

I agree with your idea that exploring the original (or as close to the original as possible) use of the word "good" in the verse(s) in question would be a worthy endeavor before you add your input to the discussion at that other forum.

[LogicalFallacy]

My knowledge with language is limited so i'm not sure how useful this answer will be. It's more opinion really.

I think you are both right in that there are multiple meanings of the word "good", much like there are multiple meanings of "love" in the New Testament.

When speaking about physical fruit being good to eat, it is probably literal and meant in the simple meaning of the word good. I like apples, they are good to eat.

I'd say that the tree of knowledge of good and evil (TKGE) is intended by the writers as metaphorical and in reference in a moral sense. If we accept this then the term fruit in relation to the TKGE is also metaphorical and could have many meanings, including the subject of an act.

In my Christian upbringing, which wasn't standardized Christianity, the 'fruit' of the tree symbolized sex, and so when the serpent gives Eve the 'fruit' and did 'eat' this is metaphorical for having sex with the serpent. She then does this with Adam, and this interpretation explains why they knew they were naked. It also explains that sex was the original sin and why God is so concerned with sex.

There are problems with this interpretation as with any. However the Jewish Midrash delves into this idea of sex with the serpent quite a bit so it is quite possible this is what the writers meant.

 

[Guest end3]

I think there are a lot of alternative meanings.... "clean" being holy. 

 

[bornagainathiest]

Yes, there are a lot of alternative meanings.

But surely whoever wrote the early chapters of Genesis didn't intend their words to have alternative meanings?   Weren't they giving an accurate historical account of real events between real people in a real location?   Isn't there an 'original' way to read Genesis - as the writer/s intended?   

Six times in Genesis 1 we read that what God made was 'good' and then collectively 'very good'.   

In Genesis 2 : 9 we read that every tree in Eden was 'good for food'. 

In Genesis 2 : 12, we see that the gold of the land of Havilah is 'good'.  

?

 

 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

2 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

Yes, there are a lot of alternative meanings.

But surely whoever wrote the early chapters of Genesis didn't intend their words to have alternative meanings?   Weren't they giving an accurate historical account of real events between real people in a real location?   Isn't there an 'original' way to read Genesis - as the writer/s intended?   

Probably not - the original meanings have been lost to time. Everything is interpretation now unless we have something that explains what the writers meant.

As you pointed out in the OP we are reading the text with a modern understanding of the words used. This is the problem with creationists today, they read "God created the heavens and the earth" to mean the universe, but the original meaning is "God created the sky and earth". There was no concept back then of a "universe".

[TheRedneckProfessor]

End3,

If by "alternative meanings" you mean to say that "everything is subjective" then there is no such thing as holiness, given that it is an absolute, therefore not subject to subjectivity as is your absolute concept of "holiness".  Thanks.

Have a good day,

TRP

[Guest end3]

13 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

End3,

If by "alternative meanings" you mean to say that "everything is subjective" then there is no such thing as holiness, given that it is an absolute, therefore not subject to subjectivity as is your absolute concept of "holiness".  Thanks.

Have a good day,

TRP

Not sure I follow your sentence Prof.  Why can there not be an absolute holiness that we are not able to achieve?  I think it IS subject to subjectivity by the very way many describe here.... i.e. many different interpretations.  But the key factor in my mind is by each being unique, our paths and interpretations of that quest will be by definition and through predestination as you ascribe, different.  But the key is ending up in the same spot.....finished and complete, holy.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

How can anything be absolute if our very understanding of absolute is subjective?

[Guest end3]

I don't know that anything is absolute in this world per our ability to see.  My view of holiness is similar to certainty unless we artificially define what we are can't see.  Then I expect we can have an absolute.  

 

On another note, I'm also thinking if we had the ability to unravel the spaghetti, there might be an absolute. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

9 hours ago, end3 said:

On another note, I'm also thinking if we had the ability to unravel the spaghetti, there might be an absolute. 

Only His Divine Spaghettiness can unravel the spaghetti; that is the only absolute you need.  For only He knows the spaghettiness of the spaghetti.  And it is good for food and pleasing to the eye.

[Guest end3]

The FSM and Jesus probably drink at the same club....

 

[Aries256]

*Biting my fist holding back my dirty comments*

[duderonomy]

This makes me realize how much I miss BAA, and how valuable his time and knowledge and insights and ideas were to me.